CATL 271Ah cell issues.

[Bob B]

In my experience with UPS and especially FedX, either one can make any packaging effort appear to be "insufficient", and this is especially true with heavy packages.

While I agree with you .... I don't think it applies to this situation.

Did you look at the pictures of the way these cells were packed .... and compare them to other pics of successful shipment?

 

[Texas-Mark]

In my experience with UPS and especially FedX, either one can make any packaging effort appear to be "insufficient", and this is especially true with heavy packages.

Sure, but in this case it is beyond obvious that the packaging was not even close to being acceptable. I stand by my previous comments that UPS will deny and damage claim, and this is all just a stall tactic by one or more of the parties.

 

[Surferdudemi]

Just checked flights to Shenzhen from JFK. Only $1547 round trip! Maybe someone has the time to pay the supplier a visit?

The ability to speak Madarin is also important ... and it takes 30 days to get a visa.

 

[josephm15234]

Look dude....I am NOT a scammer. I did not say you have to send them back, I say you should cool your jets and see what the supplier ends up doing. PAYPAL said you should send them back.

Everyone was told that if there were problems I would work with the supplier to make things right and I am doing that.

I did not pick the cells, or pack the cells, or ship the cells. You all need to take a damn chill pill and let this play out.

I don't have your money, the supplier has the money and bears the responsibility to make this right.

It is a shit situation for everyone and for me as much or MORE than for any of you. Some of you make me sick with your allegations and assertions.

My apologies. I was in a crappy mood and frustrated and should not have made that post. I apologize for what I said. I do not believe you are a scammer but just stuck in the middle of a shitty situation. That is my bad and I should not have made that post calling you a scammer. I know it's not an excuse but just know I am sorry.

If PayPal is saying I should send them then what should I do? The buyer protection was running out and I hadn't heard from you so I started the claim.

Do I have to wait for you to get the money back from the supplier before I can get any money back? How do I know I'll get it back when you get the money back?

 

[Gazoo]

The ability to speak Madarin is also important ... and it takes 30 days to get a visa.

I think it takes around a week to get a Visa. It takes up to 14 weeks to get a passport unless one has an urgent need.

 

[Bob B]

My apologies. I was in a crappy mood and frustrated and should not have made that post. I apologize for what I said. I do not believe you are a scammer but just stuck in the middle of a shitty situation. That is my bad and I should not have made that post calling you a scammer. I know it's not an excuse but just know I am sorry.

If PayPal is saying I should send them then what should I do? The buyer protection was running out and I hadn't heard from you so I started the claim.

Do I have to wait for you to get the money back from the supplier before I can get any money back? How do I know I'll get it back when you get the money back?

I don't think you need to apologize for anything except using too strong a term. If Michael wasn't prepared for people to start doing credit card and PayPal clams ... that is on him.

 

[josephm15234]

I don't think you need to apologize for anything except using too strong a term. If Michael wasn't prepared for people to start doing credit card and PayPal clams ... that is on him.

Very true and it's just that. I'm apologizing for calling him a scammer when I don't think he was doing this to scam people.

Yes indeed it is on him if he wasn't prepared for people to do PayPal or credit card claims. I'm just glad I sent it through PayPal goods and services so have a chance to at least get my money back

 

[Bob B]

Very true and it's just that. I'm apologizing for calling him a scammer when I don't think he was doing this to scam people.

Yes indeed it is on him if he wasn't prepared for people to do PayPal or credit card claims. I'm just glad I sent it through PayPal goods and services so have a chance to at least get my money back. Going to contact PayPal directly about being unable to ship them as they're hazardous goods

I have no idea how to deal with that ..... let the forum know what they say.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Those people have basically, as far as I am concerned, stolen your money. They were all told that I would work with the supplier to resolve any problems with the cells. I am doing that. They do NOT have a refund of any kind coming until the supplier takes whatever action they end up taking

Wrong. People have every right to file a PayPal or CC dispute for what has happened. Nearly two months ago you said you would give the supplier "a day or two more" to come up with a solution. No solution came, and people did what they needed to do. At this point it looks like you are just stalling to run the dispute clock out, and also trying to pass the buck by calling people thieves for doing what they had every right to do.

I can't believe you still think UPS is going to do anything, when you know the packages were inadequately packed and improperly labeled. IMO the "wait for UPS" solution is a red herring.

 

[Bubba1]

May 18 from the group buy thread.
Michael B Caro​

Photon Sorcerer​

• May 18, 2021
• Edit bookmark
• #1,866

Guys, I bought a bunch of them and paid up front with my own money, taking a chance that they would all move. I did not buy all of them available as I was not sure if everyone would be cool with cells from EV packs that are technically "used" even though never having been subjected to draw and that had been tested.

I am now waiting to hear if any of the ones I did not buy up front are still in stock, and I am also exploring some CATL 310ah to try to be sure what they quality is and how they test as far as amp hours before moving on those.

So, if you have gotten a reply saying that I placed your order, or that I made the switch from the Lishen to these, you are good. If not, it does NOT mean that you are left out or that I will not have a good alternative if the 302ah from EV cells are gone.

So sending me a message asking if you are ok or not will not get reply until the smoke clears on the two 300ah+ cells.

If you sent money already but have not received a message saying the order was placed, or switched, the money is safe and will be refunded without question if I am not able to fill the order or the difference refunded if we end up doing something on a lower cost cell.
NO ONE will get screwed in terms of $$$$ unless it is me.

Also getting information on a large number of cells available that are CATL 271ah at a great price but they still have to tell me how many I have to pay for up front to get that price.

I am not independently wealthy and so dropping $35,000.00 to $100,000.00 on cells while speculating on what the demand for that particular cell will be is not something I can do lightly. As I pursue this change in how I am doing things I will become more educated as to what you guys will accept and what you wont and so be more comfortable making larger and larger investments.

I hope that makes sense to all of you.

All of the money I do make doing this is going back into replacing shipping damaged cells, the odd cell that is a runner, and now buying up cells paid in advance to try to avoid shortages. I am also now trying to ONLY sell cells that are IN stock and ready or nearly ready to ship, unless the buyer says they are in zero hurry and can wait on anything back ordered.

I can also tell you that, from experience, I do not believe you will find any of the suppliers that are as willing to replace shipping damaged cells or runners. My experience as that they would offer insultingly low refunds on those cells and if they did agree to replace them they expected you to ship the damaged cell back to them on your dime. I am trying to take as much risk as humanly possible out of the process for you guys.

This is a work in progress and I am learning all the time and changing the model in ways that I think make sense for you and for me as well.

It ain't perfect yet, but I am doing the best I can.

 

[A.Justice]

Nearly two months ago you said you would give the supplier "a day or two more" to come up with a solution.

I want to know what supplier did this sh*t, so I can be sure to never order from them. Mike said he would name drop the vendor a week after this all went down. What's it been, like a month or two? The longer he withholds the name, the more I start to think he is complicit. I also have some questions about if those cells actually came from where he's saying; it looks like he buys some cells up-front, and stocks them U.S as well.

No solution came, and people did what they needed to do. At this point it looks like you are just stalling to run the dispute clock out, and also trying to pass the buck by calling people thieves for doing what they had every right to do.

That's fu*king absurd. I've been robbed by drug dealers more gracefully; at least they just tell you to F off eventually. This is literally blaming the victim. Mike IS NOT A VICTIM, he is a business owner who made a very bad set of calls and now has to face the consequences.

I can't believe you still think UPS is going to do anything, when you know the packages were inadequately packed and improperly labeled. IMO the "wait for UPS" solution is a red herring.

Agreed, he knows damn well that UPS won't do anything, and to suggest it seems like a stall tactic.

 

[Surferdudemi]

Going to contact PayPal directly about being unable to ship them as they're hazardous goods

That's not accurate. Cells like these are shipped every day. If you've done much reading on the forum, you likely know about Amy's business shipping them from both Texas and China. There is a labeling exception for packs of 4 or fewer cells shipped by air. Arguably, for the size and energy content of these prismatic cells, more care should be taken and they should be labeled. The use of "cell" in the exception language makes a distinction from "battery".

Page 13, Setion F of this document: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/...b9/lithium-battery-guidance-document-2020.pdf

I'm NOT suggesting that the packaging for many of these shipments is adequate. Clearly it's not when the packing breaks open, allows cells to be damaged, or it does not adequately isolate terminals from being shorted. Section Q says, for example: "The completed package containing batteries as prepared for transport in accordance with the relevant packing instruction must be capable of withstanding the 1.2 m drop test."

 

[stienman]

That's not accurate. Cells like these are shipped every day.

josephm15234 is discussing obviously physically damaged and/or leaking cells. Cells that are in good shape are fine for shipping - that's not being contested. Shipping damaged batteries, though, is typically not allowed in consumer shipping services, and often requires additional hazardous fees or special shipping arrangements.

 

[Surferdudemi]

josephm15234 is discussing obviously physically damaged and/or leaking cells. Cells that are in good shape are fine for shipping - that's not being contested. Shipping damaged batteries, though, is typically not allowed in consumer shipping services, and often requires additional hazardous fees or special shipping arrangements.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Thought it was about going after the original shippers.

 

[Julianl]

Going to contact PayPal directly about being unable to ship them as they're hazardous goods

I don’t believe the statements saying it’s ok to ship Lfp(any condition) in the weight and watts we’re dealing with is accurate (without labels and approval ). The exception of 4 I believe applies to cells installed in equipment.

I would contact PayPal and tell them that given the nature of the items without proper return instructions from the seller you would be unable to comply.

 

[bdserv]

Quote below from the FedEx website document here: https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/f...ipping-Lithium-Batteries-via-FedEx-Ground.pdf

"Is Cell >60 Wh? - Battery is a fully regulated Class 9 hazardous material. Shipper must be pre-approved."

 

[RobertGreen]

josephm15234 is discussing obviously physically damaged and/or leaking cells. Cells that are in good shape are fine for shipping - that's not being contested. Shipping damaged batteries, though, is typically not allowed in consumer shipping services, and often requires additional hazardous fees or special shipping arrangements.

Can you provide any link or reference which shows that this is true and that these cells can be shipped some other way than as a class 9 hazardous material?
I agree that these cells are shipped all the time, but it seems to be an open secret that every single seller is simply ignoring the rules.

That's not accurate. Cells like these are shipped every day. If you've done much reading on the forum, you likely know about Amy's business shipping them from both Texas and China. There is a labeling exception for packs of 4 or fewer cells shipped by air. Arguably, for the size and energy content of these prismatic cells, more care should be taken and they should be labeled. The use of "cell" in the exception language makes a distinction from "battery".

Page 13, Setion F of this document: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/...b9/lithium-battery-guidance-document-2020.pdf

I'm NOT suggesting that the packaging for many of these shipments is adequate. Clearly it's not when the packing breaks open, allows cells to be damaged, or it does not adequately isolate terminals from being shorted. Section Q says, for example: "The completed package containing batteries as prepared for transport in accordance with the relevant packing instruction must be capable of withstanding the 1.2 m drop test."

Read that section again; They're talking about cells prepared in accordance with PI 967 or PI 970-- neither of which apply to these large AH cells.

May 18 from the group buy thread.[/HEADING]
[HEADING=3]Michael B Caro​

​

.................................................................
If you sent money already but have not received a message saying the order was placed, or switched, the money is safe and will be refunded without question if I am not able to fill the order or the difference refunded if we end up doing something on a lower cost cell.
NO ONE will get screwed in terms of $$$$ unless it is me.
.............................................................

I can also tell you that, from experience, I do not believe you will find any of the suppliers that are as willing to replace shipping damaged cells or runners. My experience as that they would offer insultingly low refunds on those cells and if they did agree to replace them they expected you to ship the damaged cell back to them on your dime. I am trying to take as much risk as humanly possible out of the process for you guys.

These statements are in direct contradiction to his current position that everyone knew they were getting into risky business here, and that they should have expected to get 100% screwed if the deal went sideways. "The money is safe and will be refunded without question if I am not able to fill the order" -------- Yeah, tell that to all the people posting on your wall for weeks and weeks now begging for refunds and getting no response (I'm talking specifically about lishen orders here).

 

[Gazoo]

Going to contact PayPal directly about being unable to ship them as they're hazardous goods

The part about sending them back is included within the autogenerated e-mail you received from PayPal. As far as I know others have received refunds with no need to ship the cells to Michael.

I would contact PayPal and tell them that given the nature of the items without proper return instructions from the seller you would be unable to comply.

That should be enough but I would give a detailed explanation to PayPal as to what happened. I don't know what others who received refunds via a PayPal dispute told PayPal. Perhaps they could chime in here or send a PM to those who received the e-mail from PayPal requesting the cells be shipped back.

 

[Bubba1]

May 18 from the group buy thread.[/HEADING]
[HEADING=3]Michael B Caro​

Photon Sorcerer​

• May 18, 2021
• Edit bookmark
• #1,866

Guys, I bought a bunch of them and paid up front with my own money, taking a chance that they would all move. I did not buy all of them available as I was not sure if everyone would be cool with cells from EV packs that are technically "used" even though never having been subjected to draw and that had been tested.

I am now waiting to hear if any of the ones I did not buy up front are still in stock, and I am also exploring some CATL 310ah to try to be sure what they quality is and how they test as far as amp hours before moving on those.

So, if you have gotten a reply saying that I placed your order, or that I made the switch from the Lishen to these, you are good. If not, it does NOT mean that you are left out or that I will not have a good alternative if the 302ah from EV cells are gone.

So sending me a message asking if you are ok or not will not get reply until the smoke clears on the two 300ah+ cells.

If you sent money already but have not received a message saying the order was placed, or switched, the money is safe and will be refunded without question if I am not able to fill the order or the difference refunded if we end up doing something on a lower cost cell.
NO ONE will get screwed in terms of $$$$ unless it is me.

Also getting information on a large number of cells available that are CATL 271ah at a great price but they still have to tell me how many I have to pay for up front to get that price.

I am not independently wealthy and so dropping $35,000.00 to $100,000.00 on cells while speculating on what the demand for that particular cell will be is not something I can do lightly. As I pursue this change in how I am doing things I will become more educated as to what you guys will accept and what you wont and so be more comfortable making larger and larger investments.

I hope that makes sense to all of you.

All of the money I do make doing this is going back into replacing shipping damaged cells, the odd cell that is a runner, and now buying up cells paid in advance to try to avoid shortages. I am also now trying to ONLY sell cells that are IN stock and ready or nearly ready to ship, unless the buyer says they are in zero hurry and can wait on anything back ordered.

I can also tell you that, from experience, I do not believe you will find any of the suppliers that are as willing to replace shipping damaged cells or runners. My experience as that they would offer insultingly low refunds on those cells and if they did agree to replace them they expected you to ship the damaged cell back to them on your dime. I am trying to take as much risk as humanly possible out of the process for you guys.

This is a work in progress and I am learning all the time and changing the model in ways that I think make sense for you and for me as well.

It ain't perfect yet, but I am doing the best I can.

This paragraph is telling what to expect from supplier.....

I can also tell you that, from experience, I do not believe you will find any of the suppliers that are as willing to replace shipping damaged cells or runners. My experience as that they would offer insultingly low refunds on those cells and if they did agree to replace them they expected you to ship the damaged cell back to them on your dime. I am trying to take as much risk as humanly possible out of the process for you guys.

 

[DEEP WOODS WARNERS]

I know this much. You can take this to a lawyer and you may get into a court room. But the second the judge hears group purchase and learns what a group purchase is you lost. Aspecially when the next subject would be the people purchasing them clearly know and understand the risk of purchasing from a company of like these. I mean this forum alone is full of the proof that buying these cells are very high risk.
Them you add the risk of shipping to it and case closed. They will understand Mike is just a customer to these suppliers and is just as much at risk for being ripped off.
You see there comes a point of accountability. And I see alot of guy trying to play dumb and push the accountability off onto another guy so the feel they can be the clear victim.
All you have to do is search the screen names and you can see the interaction within the forum that says the knew the risk. And understand how the process of group buy works.
I've actually seen this go down. Lots of more money was lost. You see Mike dosnt do this for a living. He sells adds for his income from what I've seen on this forum.
There been alot of people chime in saying Mike has made issues right. Mike has said he's issuing refunds as he can. And it don't seem to get through.
I see alot of manipulation of words and sentences to increase the heat. Alot of shrugging off the knowledge of the risk you took so you think you can play as innocent as possible.
Like your trying to say I didn't know the risk. Well here's some questions.
1. Did you make your purchase from a licensed and insured business?
**No sir I purchased from some guy on a forum because I wanted in on the cheap price of a group buy.
2. Did you ask the group buy lead guy if he had capital saved or insured your shipping?
** no sir. Everyone was doing it so I needed the cells as cheap as possible.
3. Did Mike ship these cells personally?
**No sir he's just the guy that lead the group to make a bulk order so we got cheap prices per cell.
4. How did you hear of the guy doing the group purchase.
** he was on a forum and everyone made these purchases through him with success. So I did to so I could get a cheap price.

Money seems to lead people into risky choices. Either trying to save it or trying to make it. It's amazing the risk people ( including myself) will put themselves into just to save a buck. That becomes our responsibility of pour choice when we do that.
Try giving Mike some time. He will get it fixed and has already made it right by quit a few. But when some of its coming out of his own pocket things get slowed down.