diy solar

diy solar

Adding storage to my Enphase system

...I was away for work for 3 days, and so my inverter didn't go into charge mode for the whole time....
Were you able to at least monitor it from your cellphone app? Thinking about any changes for remote access?

I plan to buy an EV for myself in the next year or so.
I've been holding out for a fully self-driving phev. But I also want something compatible with a bidirectional charger to augment my batteries via V2H when needed.
 
The idle load of my XW inverter is variable, at least by my BMS. I believe it also changes abruptly when the charge block or grid support block times hit.

Depending on battery voltage and settings it will pull somewhere about 15-110 watts.
I don't know how much if this is used by the XW vs how much is inverted into AC...

Also, with how the inverter ramps down current to hold battery voltage, that 32 hours could have all been at 100 watts and that was the emptiest 52.5 volts, then once depleted, the battery voltage slowly started dropping quicker.

Does your BMS store history data? Can you see what the current drain looked like?
The BMS does not store any history data.

The battery summary in the XW-Pro has a dead flat line at 0 amps from the time the battery dropped below the 52.5 volt cut off. From that point, it should not be inverting at all. Grid support and sell to grid are both disabled at that point.

I do have 3 BMS units, so there will be some parasitic drain from them.

Looking at the graphs, it took 3 hours at 7.3 amps to charge back up to 52.5 volts. I know this is not a perfect measure, but that suggests about 21 amp hours were drained away. That seems very high. 7 amp hours each day. From 50% capacity, that would only take 51 days to run the battery dead, if that same loss kept going. But the XW-Pro, and the BMS units do have another level of shut off which should virtually eliminate the parasitic loss. 7 amp hours per day / 24 = 0.29 amp drain. That is a bit too low to get an accurate reading with my clamp meter.

On the "good" side, (I guess), if the battery did fall below 52.0 it would have triggered a bulk charge cycle to begin in the morning when the charge block time ends.
 
I've been holding out for a fully self-driving phev. But I also want something compatible with a bidirectional charger to augment my batteries via V2H when needed.
The Niro has some self driving features. I don't think it will allow you to run into something. I haven't put that to the test. lol
It will follow at a distance too. There's probably more.
 
We had a real nice rain yesterday. Id never got super hard, but it kept falling. Solar production was way down, as the sun never came out of the clouds. Total production yesterday was just 4.0 KWHs compared to my typical >22 KWHs for this time of year. What I noticed right away when I wen out today though, is my solar panels are very clean. It did a great job washing them down. And it is sunny today, yet nice and cool. It is almost to Solar noon as I type this. My panels are cranking out 3,500 watts, and the system has already produced 12.2 KWHs.
 
@GXMnow Wow, just amazing content. You have a much more complex system than I am looking at building. In another thread I was discussing with @pvdude about the Conext XW Pro 6848 for a DC only system (no existing AC coupling). I'm still looking at Outback Radian or Conext simply because have a 35a 240v surge for a well pump. If you had to do this all over again, would you stay with Conext or would you look at something like the Outback Radian 8k or other?
 
It would depend on several factors. I still believe the inverter in the XW-Pro is one of the best on the market. My only gripe is the software issues. They have another new update. I need to load it and see if they have improved things at all. But since all my network is powered off of the backup loads panel, I need to rig up a computer to do the update with my home network down. I still have not installed a manual inverter bypass switch around the XW to power my backed up loads. I have the switch, 60 amp rated 4 pole, but I have not had a chance to tak my system down to install it. I will likely do that at the same time I do the software upgrade.

But all that aside... It truly does depends on the power demands that you need. For my current home demands, I think I would have been better off with the OutBack SkyBox. It is a lighter duty inverter. 5,000 watts compared to 6,800 watts, but that is only half the story. The SkyBox has much lower surge capacity, and also can't handle near as much imbalance between the phases. That is not an issue with my current setup, so here it would work fine, but if I do plan to add a mini split A/C unit off the backup loads, then I will need the grunt of the XW-Pro inverter. It has a 2 minute surge rating of 8,500 watts, and a 30 second surge to 12,000 watts, or 50 amps to get a large motor started. This should easily get your 35 amp well pump going. And since you are DC only, then all of the features of the XW-Pro will work for you. My software issue is mostly due to the AC coupling being my only source of solar power. The XW-Pro handles it great when the grid is down, but the software prevents the system from doing time of use energy shifting when the grid is up with only AC coupled solar. I am still hoping they will eventually fix this issue. The new firmware did add several good features that I am aware of. A big one is having more settings that change how it operates between the grid up and grid down modes. When the grid is up, I have it keeping my battery above 50% charge, and not charging above 85%, while charging at a lazy 25 amps. This is gentle on the batteries, and gives me a good reserve if there is a grid outage overnight. But when the grid goes down, it uses the same numbers. I want it to be able to charge at 100 amps so it will just take everything my solar can produce without having to frequency shift, and top the batteries up to 95% so I have more available to run the next night if the grid is still down. It does allow the inverter to run lower while off grid, and the AC coupling mode works great once the sun comes up. I think they did fix some of this in the new 1.12 firmware.

The other issue of an AC coupled system is what they call "dark start". If the battery does end up running down to where the inverter shuts off, then the system is basically dead. Even when the sun comes back up, it can't start back up on it's own. This is true of all AC coupled systems. With the battery inverter shut down from low battery, there is no local grid. With no local grid, the solar inverters do not have a grid either. They will not start making power. So what happens in my case, I have to use a battery powered laptop, to log into the gateway, and lower the settings for the low battery shut off. So then the inverter will come on again, and it will produce a local grid from the low state of charge battery bank. I have mine set to keep enough in reserve, even on the off grid mode, to be able to run up my backup loads for a while still. Once this local grid is stable for 5 minutes, then the solar inverters should qualify the grid is okay. At that point, they can start making power again. The solar will start powering the loads. If they are not making enough, then the battery will still be supplying the difference and could run down again to the new lower cutoff point. That would be bad, as I would then have to do it all over again, to an even lower cut. But if the sun is making enough, it should exceed the needs of the backup loads, and the excess will then be taken by the XW-Pro to charge the battery bank from the AC coupled solar power again. My backup loads panel average 600 watts and peak to 900 watts, unless we use the microwave. That adds 1,500 watts, but only for a few minutes. My solar can produce up to 3,500 watts. That leave a peak charge rate of 2,600 watts at solar noon. Easily in the capability of the XW to to push, and my batteries to take. That is just over a 50 amp charge rate, my 720 amp hour battery bank won't break a sweat. 600 watts x 24 hours is 14.4 KWHs. My 16 x 300 watt solar panels make more that even in winter here, and I hit 30 KWHs in May. 14,400 / 4,800 = just 3 sun hours to meet my daily backup loads panel demand.

Dark start is not a problem when you have DC solar to charge the batteries. When the sun comes up, there is no qualifying at all. As soon as the solar panels are making enough power to light up the MPPT controller, it will start to push current into the battery bank. On my system, it will only need to raise the battery voltage 0.2 volts, and the inverter can start back up. Then once the inverter is running, the AC solar can even start back up after the 5 minute qualifying of my local grid. For this reason alone, I am looking at adding a few DC coupled solar panels. But after doing the math, I think it will be more like 2,000 to 3,000 watts of DC solar. That will cure my time of use power shifting issue. I use the AC solar when the sun is up, and the DC solar charges the battery, and I use that when the sun goes down. just 10 KWHs of battery charging will cover my 4pm to 9pm peak rate time of use energy needs.

I did look at the Radian setup. I liked the modular design, and the 4,000 watts x 2 setup that would still give 4,000 watts if one of the inverter modules had an issue. But to make it work, it did need a few more external boxes and the spring clip wire terminals kind of scare me for 30 amps of 240 volt AC. It does seem to be a more robust inverter than the skybox, but it's still a bit behind the brute force of the Schneider (Conext) XW inverter. Looking at the manuals and such, the radian does look like a good system, but I have no hands on time with one. The skybox fixed some of my issues with radian, and the software features look great, but the weaker inverter did not seem powerful enough wen I designed my setup, but in hindsight, I think it would be fine for me. And the price of it has dropped a lot since I got my XW, so it is now very cost competitive. With your well pump demand, I think the XW might be the only single inverter that would get that running. My 120 amp Hobart mig welder runs fine off the XW, and it also fires up my "3 HP" air compressor (it has a 25-30 amp start surge, but runs at just 2,000 watts) without complaint.
 
It would depend on several factors. I still believe the inverter in the XW-Pro is one of the best on the market. My only gripe is the software issues. They have another new update. I need to load it and see if they have improved things at all. But since all my network is powered off of the backup loads panel, I need to rig up a computer to do the update with my home network down. I still have not installed a manual inverter bypass switch around the XW to power my backed up loads. I have the switch, 60 amp rated 4 pole, but I have not had a chance to tak my system down to install it. I will likely do that at the same time I do the software upgrade.

But all that aside... It truly does depends on the power demands that you need. For my current home demands, I think I would have been better off with the OutBack SkyBox. It is a lighter duty inverter. 5,000 watts compared to 6,800 watts, but that is only half the story. The SkyBox has much lower surge capacity, and also can't handle near as much imbalance between the phases. That is not an issue with my current setup, so here it would work fine, but if I do plan to add a mini split A/C unit off the backup loads, then I will need the grunt of the XW-Pro inverter. It has a 2 minute surge rating of 8,500 watts, and a 30 second surge to 12,000 watts, or 50 amps to get a large motor started. This should easily get your 35 amp well pump going. And since you are DC only, then all of the features of the XW-Pro will work for you. My software issue is mostly due to the AC coupling being my only source of solar power. The XW-Pro handles it great when the grid is down, but the software prevents the system from doing time of use energy shifting when the grid is up with only AC coupled solar. I am still hoping they will eventually fix this issue. The new firmware did add several good features that I am aware of. A big one is having more settings that change how it operates between the grid up and grid down modes. When the grid is up, I have it keeping my battery above 50% charge, and not charging above 85%, while charging at a lazy 25 amps. This is gentle on the batteries, and gives me a good reserve if there is a grid outage overnight. But when the grid goes down, it uses the same numbers. I want it to be able to charge at 100 amps so it will just take everything my solar can produce without having to frequency shift, and top the batteries up to 95% so I have more available to run the next night if the grid is still down. It does allow the inverter to run lower while off grid, and the AC coupling mode works great once the sun comes up. I think they did fix some of this in the new 1.12 firmware.

The other issue of an AC coupled system is what they call "dark start". If the battery does end up running down to where the inverter shuts off, then the system is basically dead. Even when the sun comes back up, it can't start back up on it's own. This is true of all AC coupled systems. With the battery inverter shut down from low battery, there is no local grid. With no local grid, the solar inverters do not have a grid either. They will not start making power. So what happens in my case, I have to use a battery powered laptop, to log into the gateway, and lower the settings for the low battery shut off. So then the inverter will come on again, and it will produce a local grid from the low state of charge battery bank. I have mine set to keep enough in reserve, even on the off grid mode, to be able to run up my backup loads for a while still. Once this local grid is stable for 5 minutes, then the solar inverters should qualify the grid is okay. At that point, they can start making power again. The solar will start powering the loads. If they are not making enough, then the battery will still be supplying the difference and could run down again to the new lower cutoff point. That would be bad, as I would then have to do it all over again, to an even lower cut. But if the sun is making enough, it should exceed the needs of the backup loads, and the excess will then be taken by the XW-Pro to charge the battery bank from the AC coupled solar power again. My backup loads panel average 600 watts and peak to 900 watts, unless we use the microwave. That adds 1,500 watts, but only for a few minutes. My solar can produce up to 3,500 watts. That leave a peak charge rate of 2,600 watts at solar noon. Easily in the capability of the XW to to push, and my batteries to take. That is just over a 50 amp charge rate, my 720 amp hour battery bank won't break a sweat. 600 watts x 24 hours is 14.4 KWHs. My 16 x 300 watt solar panels make more that even in winter here, and I hit 30 KWHs in May. 14,400 / 4,800 = just 3 sun hours to meet my daily backup loads panel demand.

Dark start is not a problem when you have DC solar to charge the batteries. When the sun comes up, there is no qualifying at all. As soon as the solar panels are making enough power to light up the MPPT controller, it will start to push current into the battery bank. On my system, it will only need to raise the battery voltage 0.2 volts, and the inverter can start back up. Then once the inverter is running, the AC solar can even start back up after the 5 minute qualifying of my local grid. For this reason alone, I am looking at adding a few DC coupled solar panels. But after doing the math, I think it will be more like 2,000 to 3,000 watts of DC solar. That will cure my time of use power shifting issue. I use the AC solar when the sun is up, and the DC solar charges the battery, and I use that when the sun goes down. just 10 KWHs of battery charging will cover my 4pm to 9pm peak rate time of use energy needs.

I did look at the Radian setup. I liked the modular design, and the 4,000 watts x 2 setup that would still give 4,000 watts if one of the inverter modules had an issue. But to make it work, it did need a few more external boxes and the spring clip wire terminals kind of scare me for 30 amps of 240 volt AC. It does seem to be a more robust inverter than the skybox, but it's still a bit behind the brute force of the Schneider (Conext) XW inverter. Looking at the manuals and such, the radian does look like a good system, but I have no hands on time with one. The skybox fixed some of my issues with radian, and the software features look great, but the weaker inverter did not seem powerful enough wen I designed my setup, but in hindsight, I think it would be fine for me. And the price of it has dropped a lot since I got my XW, so it is now very cost competitive. With your well pump demand, I think the XW might be the only single inverter that would get that running. My 120 amp Hobart mig welder runs fine off the XW, and it also fires up my "3 HP" air compressor (it has a 25-30 amp start surge, but runs at just 2,000 watts) without complaint.
@GXMnow
Thank you for all the feedback. I looked at the skybox also, but even having two in parallel would barely get the well pump going (on paper). The rest of my loads are really balanced. I just finished getting all critical loads I would want on solar (lights/outlets/specific appliances/well pump) moved to a dedicated panel, currently MainPanel->SubPanel fed. Will feed panel as MainPanel->Inverter->SubPanel after inverter/batteries in place.

My goal is over the next 2-3 months get inverter(s) and batteries in place first to use as a grid backup with grid only battery charging. After winter is over in these higher elevations (April) get the solar installed to feed the inverter/batteries and get more independant from grid, but always have it there as a backup. I've also thought about two Conext XW Pro or Outback simply to have a backup in the event things go sideways, not that I need the additional capacity. Just want a system I can expand as needed.

Anything else I need to consider? I looked at Sol-Ark also, but I feel both Radian 8k and XW Pro will meet my needs with surge on a DC based system, now just need to figure out what I want to buy :).
 
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@GXMnow, looking at your statement above
The other issue of an AC coupled system is what they call "dark start". If the battery does end up running down to where the inverter shuts off, then the system is basically dead. Even when the sun comes back up, it can't start back up on it's own.
I will be connected to grid. My hope is that the inverter can pull from grid AC input simultaneously if more power is needed or to change the batteries when needed if solar is not available. I assume this is possible, correct? I also assume your enphase system is your AC input for your current system?
 
Switch the well pump to DC, variable speed, or use a soft-starter?
Not doing this at this time. Will definitely get a better well pump with soft start when needed. Can the Conext inverter charge batteries and supply power to load panel from grid if no solar available?
 
@GXMnow, looking at your statement above

I will be connected to grid. My hope is that the inverter can pull from grid AC input simultaneously if more power is needed or to change the batteries when needed if solar is not available. I assume this is possible, correct? I also assume your enphase system is your AC input for your current system?

While grid is available, some inverters do pull power from grid, combining with power from PV or from battery as the situation might be.

Dark start: My Sunny Island can't connect to grid unless it is operating and inverting from battery. It delivers AC to loads, monitors grid (or generator) to ensure voltage/frequency within spec, synchronizes its AC output to the grid, closes relays to grid and lets grid take over.

If battery is drained too low, it can't connect to grid and it can't deliver AC to AC coupled PV. If there is DC coupled PV, that will charge batteries until they are high enough to let user manually cycle it on. (Somebody said switch must be manually turned off until capacitors inside discharge to reset.) I have a test system with one inverter I passed through this condition while testing battery capacity.

The manual does provide an "emergency charge" instruction to connect AC from grid/generator directly to output of inverter, while inverter is off, bypassing relays. With power present it can then charge the battery itself.

You should have some mechanism for dark starting. It could be an AC powered battery charger which you can connect to the grid or generator. Another would be DC coupled PV. Ideally that would be with a suitable SCC, but you could act as a PWM charger yourself - connect PV panels directly to battery, let current flow to charge them until battery voltage is high enough for inverter to start. Properly respecting any BMS or cell imposed limitations. I would do this with all cells low (if lithium, far from becoming over charged) and bypassing BMS (so Voc from panels doesn't blow out BMS.) I would disconnect the PV well before full charge.

Draining battery is something to be avoided. A relay to shed load at some DoD, and system designed to reach morning and start recharging.
 
Not doing this at this time. Will definitely get a better well pump with soft start when needed. Can the Conext inverter charge batteries and supply power to load panel from grid if no solar available?
Yes, it "CAN" charge from the grid, but it has a few issues there. It won't start a charge cycle until the battery falls below the "Recharge Volts" setting, and that becomes an issue because it stops inverting when the battery is still 0.5 volts above the recharge volts setting. So something else either has to tell it to charge, do the charging, or draw the batteries down. If you did go to a DC well pump, that would do the trick.

The output terminals will supply grid power through the internal transfer switch. In that mode, it can be charging, on standby, inverting to help supply the loads, or even invert more power and push some back to the grid as well. This is all adjustable. If you add a "WattNode" energy meter, it can even adjust the grid sell current on the fly to maintain a desired amount of current going back to the grid. This is normally used to enable "grid zero" for no export. When a load comes on in the main panel, the watt node will see the current and command the XW to ramp up and bring the grid input power back to zero. When a load turns off, the opposite happens. The inverter will reduce it's output to again keep the grid current zero so it does not export. All of this is independent of solar.

You can then add DC solar to directly charge the batteries. That is how the system was originally designed. The inverter will run off the solar power and only switch to charge mode if the batteries get pulled too low.

If you add AC coupled solar like I have, it does a few odd things. Most of it is good. Since it does measure the power flowing through, it will allow the AC solar to directly power loads. In the summer when I still have a lot of solar production after 4 PM, the inverter just sits in standby as the AC solar is powering all of the loads in the backup panel, and the excess is flowing back to the main panel, and even back out to the grid. The battery inverter has no control over the AC solar when the grid is up. This is true of any AC coupled system, except for a full Enphase system. Enphase can send data to command the solar inverter, so that is an oddball. On all other systems, the battery inverter can only "control" the AC solar inverters to altering the local grid. Most modern solar inverters will respond to a rise in grid frequency by lowering heir output power. While on grid, the grid is supplying the frequency, we can't shift it. But what the XW does do is if the AC solar is pushing more power back to the grid than we set it for, it just stays in bypass mode and won't add any more grid export to the system.

Another very cool XW-Pro feature is the grid support mode. You can set it to wait in standby until a load pulls over a set amount of current. Again, this will wait until the load draws more than the set power, past what the solar is providing. Let's say it is solar noon, then the AC solar can run all the normal loads, it does nothing. But then someone turns on a hair dryer, the air compressor starts, and a cloud rolls in. The XW will go into invert mode and help power the load to keep the grid current under the setting, up to a maximum invert power. This would come into play when your well pump starts and stop it from pulling all of the power from the grid.

Since mine is AC charging, I also see this function work in reverse. If my solar production falls and a heavy load turns on, it will drop the charge power to keep the draw from the grid from exceeding the desired settings. As much as I like to complain about the AC coupled charging issue, the inverter is an excellent device. I just need about 500 more people to complain so they will have an engineer fixe the software charging problem. The Sun Power SunVault is using an XW-Pro, but they have their own controller commanding it, and it fixes all of the problems that I complain about. Too bad they charge a ton more money for it in their system.
 
ChrisG: Have you made any choices yet? Am following this with great interest. For what it is worth, I had been told by a guy who sells a LOT of Outback that the Skybox is a discontinued item. I just checked with another source today, and they confirmed it, and said they were glad to see it go. Several people have reported really high idle consumption. Too bad, because it would fit my bill pretty well. I suspect the lower prices we are seeing is indicative of inventory sell off.

You could also look at Sunny Island. A great inverter, with huge surge capacity. And of course Radian is an excellent choice too.

I heard some very positive comments today about the XW Pro, which amounted to a statement that Schneider is slowly getting around to fixing some quirks. Don't ask me which...I'm sure GXMnow would know all about the status of that...

The XW Pro price is pretty attractive. So are the Conext SW, if you can work with their limitations.
 
The OutBack web site still talks about the SkyBox as the latest and greatest hybrid all in one system. I don't see any mention of it being discontinued.

I am still very happy with my Schneider XW-Pro with my only gripe being the lack of autonomous energy time shifting when used in AC coupling mode. Their web site still makes it sound like it can, as it lists all these features, but does not say anywhere that time of use shifting only works with DC coupling. The stupid thing is how easy the functions could be added, but their software or management feels it is not needed.
 
ChrisG: Have you made any choices yet? Am following this with great interest. For what it is worth, I had been told by a guy who sells a LOT of Outback that the Skybox is a discontinued item. I just checked with another source today, and they confirmed it, and said they were glad to see it go. Several people have reported really high idle consumption. Too bad, because it would fit my bill pretty well. I suspect the lower prices we are seeing is indicative of inventory sell off.

You could also look at Sunny Island. A great inverter, with huge surge capacity. And of course Radian is an excellent choice too.

I heard some very positive comments today about the XW Pro, which amounted to a statement that Schneider is slowly getting around to fixing some quirks. Don't ask me which...I'm sure GXMnow would know all about the status of that...

The XW Pro price is pretty attractive. So are the Conext SW, if you can work with their limitations.
I’m still deciding. Right now it’s between the Outback Radian and XW Pro. The XW hits the sweet spot with surge and right in the middle of both Raidians (4048, 8048). I will only be DC coupled and never sell back to grid, only use grid as backup when solar can’t charge. Just concerned about the support levels and software for XW based on a lot of threads in here but I know it’s mainly AC couples items.
 
I’m still deciding. Right now it’s between the Outback Radian and XW Pro. The XW hits the sweet spot with surge and right in the middle of both Raidians (4048, 8048). I will only be DC coupled and never sell back to grid, only use grid as backup when solar can’t charge. Just concerned about the support levels and software for XW based on a lot of threads in here but I know it’s mainly AC couples items.
I was looking at a Radian system as well. I opted for the XW-pro for several reasons. As it turned out, one of my reasons was actually wrong though. But that one is again AC coupling related. The rest of my reasons have to do with system wiring and control, especially with my repurposed EV battery bank. I was kind of sure I could make the Radian work, but I knew for sure the Schneider would. The charging parameters on the Radian are not as well documented for custom settings. But after using my XW for a while now, and seeing how the batteries work, the concern about charging settings is greatly reduced.

If you are going to run DC coupled PV, then the Schneider XW-pro will do everything you expect and probably more. The Schneider charge controllers are cost competitive with the other quality units on the market. OutBack, Victron, or Midnight etc. so I will use a Schneider MPPT when I add the DC solar here. I did look into using an EPEver and it would certainly work fine, but the monitoring would be blind to the charge current and just see rising voltage. Not sure how adding the battery monitor would react. Getting charge current, when no device is reporting that it is charging, Hmmm. And the battery monitor is not cheap, it is about 80% of the cost of the 60 amp Schneider charge controller.

If all of your loads can be run from a 60 amp breaker, then you can just put everything behind the XW-Pro. As long as you have grid power at the input, it can pass through any power that the inverter can't make. The limit will be the 60 amp contactor. With that setup, you only need the XW-pro, MPPT, and an Insight Home device to make it work. It will charge whenever you have sun, it will power out as much current as you ask from it, up to 6,800 watts, and 12,000 watts surge. If the battery runs too low, it will go to full bypass and wait for solar to charge the battery again. As soon as the battery is high enough, it will go back to inverting and power the loads. You can set it to no export, and it will just command the MPPT to curtail output once the battery is full and the loads are taking less than the solar is producing.
 
I was looking at a Radian system as well. I opted for the XW-pro for several reasons. As it turned out, one of my reasons was actually wrong though. But that one is again AC coupling related. The rest of my reasons have to do with system wiring and control, especially with my repurposed EV battery bank. I was kind of sure I could make the Radian work, but I knew for sure the Schneider would. The charging parameters on the Radian are not as well documented for custom settings. But after using my XW for a while now, and seeing how the batteries work, the concern about charging settings is greatly reduced.

If you are going to run DC coupled PV, then the Schneider XW-pro will do everything you expect and probably more. The Schneider charge controllers are cost competitive with the other quality units on the market. OutBack, Victron, or Midnight etc. so I will use a Schneider MPPT when I add the DC solar here. I did look into using an EPEver and it would certainly work fine, but the monitoring would be blind to the charge current and just see rising voltage. Not sure how adding the battery monitor would react. Getting charge current, when no device is reporting that it is charging, Hmmm. And the battery monitor is not cheap, it is about 80% of the cost of the 60 amp Schneider charge controller.

If all of your loads can be run from a 60 amp breaker, then you can just put everything behind the XW-Pro. As long as you have grid power at the input, it can pass through any power that the inverter can't make. The limit will be the 60 amp contactor. With that setup, you only need the XW-pro, MPPT, and an Insight Home device to make it work. It will charge whenever you have sun, it will power out as much current as you ask from it, up to 6,800 watts, and 12,000 watts surge. If the battery runs too low, it will go to full bypass and wait for solar to charge the battery again. As soon as the battery is high enough, it will go back to inverting and power the loads. You can set it to no export, and it will just command the MPPT to curtail output once the battery is full and the loads are taking less than the solar is producing.
GXMnow: Your comments on the DC coupled aspects of the XW Pro are on point for what we are considering. I'd eliminated the Schneider equipment from consideration early on, but have come around after reading a lot of comments from users like yourself. Of course, Radian is a good unit too, and Sunny Island. My frustration with SMA is how difficult it seems to be to get information.

On the Outback Skybox issue: I've been told directly by 3 reps working for CED, NAZ Wind, and Alt-E that that it is a discontinued item. I have to assume they know what they are talking about. And since I'm actively shopping, they have no reason to discourage me from considering it. Although, 2 of them did comment that the Skybox just never lived up to the expectations.

This type of info isn't just constrained to Outback though. If you are considering the Conext SW units as a lower price alternative to the XW-PRO you can read tech specs on numerous sites that conflict on the topic of stacking them. Some say you can, some say you cannot. Others say it was a problem, and Schneider fixed it. Other refute that. And there is disagreement online about the Skybox too for that same topic.

Getting through all the clutter can be really tough. It makes input from guys like you all the more valuable.
 
and Sunny Island. My frustration with SMA is how difficult it seems to be to get information.

It seemed I got more information on how Sunny Island worked in the 2000's, more theory, diagrams, and explanation.
It works very well for what it does, pass-through from grid and interacting with with AC coupled Sunny Boys off-grid. Some things like load-shed relay are needed and addressed deep in the manual, but conspicuously absent from the system block diagram, which would be the easiest way for people to see and understand.
Sunny Island has been used for load shaving and grid support, but maybe only with custom communications, and in an R&D environment. I haven't seen anything indicating SMA supports that application.
Now, SMA seems to focus on decentralized control and having customers sell power into the spot market. More internet-connected boxes and communications with GT PV inverters. That may be where the grid and net-metering is headed, but it isn't what most of us do.
If you are doing an off-grid or grid-backup system, the basic block diagram is shown in their data sheet, and there are relays available for some functions.
Of course, lithium battery support is officially a number of commercial products. And we know REC is available for DIY.
 
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