Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

[toms]

You guys are disingenuous when you’re talking about the cost factor or the time.

Not at all. I have helped setup dozens of DIY packs over the last decade. The average size pack is 400ah/48V.

It takes less than a day for most people to assemble the packs.

For comparison, the most readily available commercial LiFePO4 packs available here over that period were BYD B-Box.

Every single BYD i know of that was professionally installed has given issues, generally after a few years.

The trend i see is like this:
step one: install ill-informed system based on advice from shop (shops here still recommend lead acid)
step two: a few years later get that system replaced by a “professional” install
step three: a few years later get that system replaced by a DIY system that actually works properly.

I get regular contact from people with commercial systems that nobody will help them with as the installer has disappeared.

Once someone understands the basics of their DIY system it is simple for them to troubleshoot.

The DIY system is technically a lot simpler also. If i use a commercial rack mount system (eg BYD) i would have 8 extra BMS that could fail.

The commercial offerings look attractive, you need to speak with people that have owned them for many years to get the picture.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

That is not the definition of an expert, he doesn’t design but it’s funny how they contact him to test the product and then make changes accordingly. Yes that is the definition of DIY being self taught, but not everyone wants to spend hours building something when they can get it cheaper, You’re on his form trying to grow your knowledge from his achievements that pretty much makes him an expert. DIY has no warranty in fact you couldn’t even call a solar expert to fix it. If you’re out of town could your wife or kids go to your setup and diagnose the problem, no. But with a manufactured product she/he could call signature solar, victron, enphase, sol-ark, Growatt and others to be walk-through the problem. I could build a DIY a battery system by just simply watching Wills video, but I also know the time I put into it, the wait time for the batteries and all the other supplies and testing equipment, I would have to purchase, I would need to do several builds to get my money back. You guys are disingenuous when you’re talking about the cost factor or the time.

lol he’s a YouTube person with a large following.
Because he’s personable and genuine.

They want access to his demographics nothing else.

I’m Not on here growing anything from His knowledge.
Never even spoke to him.
Several others have made suggestions on certain subjects.

That’s a hell of an assumption considering you know zero about me.
As a matter of fact my wife and my Son both know how to troubleshoot and fix any aspect of the system.
They helped me build it as a family.

Yes everyone on a DIY forum wants to spend hours building stuff because it IS cheaper and they want to know how it works so they can fix it themselves if anything should happen.
It all comes back to self reliance.
Something most Americans are severely lacking in.

A VOM, IR meter, Capacity meter. So much equipment.
One build is all it takes to save upwards of 50%.

So say anything else is calling everyone here saying otherwise a liar.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Not at all. I have helped setup dozens of DIY packs over the last decade. The average size pack is 400ah/48V.

It takes less than a day for most people to assemble the packs.

For comparison, the most readily available commercial LiFePO4 packs available here over that period were BYD B-Box.

Every single BYD i know of that was professionally installed has given issues, generally after a few years.

The trend i see is like this:
step one: install ill-informed system based on advice from shop (shops here still recommend lead acid)
step two: a few years later get that system replaced by a “professional” install
step three: a few years later get that system replaced by a DIY system that actually works properly.

I get regular contact from people with commercial systems that nobody will help them with as the installer has disappeared.

Once someone understands the basics of their DIY system it is simple for them to troubleshoot.

The DIY system is technically a lot simpler also. If i use a commercial rack mount system (eg BYD) i would have 8 extra BMS that could fail.

The commercial offerings look attractive, you need to speak with people that have owned them for many years to get the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
Exactly the way it happens.
Have seen it first hand here.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

You guys are disingenuous when you’re talking about the cost factor or the time.

Seriously, I'm not. The amount of equipment needed is minimal, and cheap. The amount of time needed to get the parts isn't all that much either. Most of the stuff you guys in the States can get now (those $1500 rack mounted batteries for example) are only just now available. Getting them in Europe takes just as long as getting cells from China. Warehouses in both the US and China for individual cells can shave off delivery times. For reference, I've been up and running for over a year with this now:

This could be interesting

So, instead of just doing the usual and buying some Victron and Batrium equipment and calling it a day, I went shopping on Alibaba and Aliexpress to see if I could build my entire 32x280Ah and 10kW solar panels system for under 10K Euro, keeping in mind the power and charge requirements - so not...

diysolarforum.com

Number of times the system went down: 0. Number of issues within that time: 0.

My battery costs (€), including shipping and taxes:

- 2 x BMS (including ring terminals) : 193.97
- 32 x 280Ah LiFePO4 cells: 3215.5
- Copper for my diy braided bus bars: 75
- Bottle of MG Chemicals 847 : 31
- 2 x Box + compression + heating + insulation : 100
- 2 x Class T fuse with holder: 200

Total: 3815.5 or 0.136 per Wh (or 0.15$/Wh at current exchange rate). That $1500 OTS battery that currently takes the crown comes in at 0.29$/Wh (excluding shipping).

 

[Brassburnz]

The cost per watt hour is important but not the only factor I considered. The educational aspects of building a battery and learning about the components of a solar system was also considered. I started out small, amp hour wise and paid a little too much for everything. I made mistakes but they didn't result in anything dangerous.

I shifted to off-the-shelf batteries and have been running them daily since April. There were a few balancing issues but the system has settled in nicely. It's an off-grid back-up system with low power demands but I run it daily. With a metal case, BMS, fuse, and cables I'm at USD $0.35 per watt hour including tax & shipping.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

The cost per watt hour is important but not the only factor I considered. The educational aspects of building a battery and learning about the components of a solar system was also considered. I started out small, amp hour wise and paid a little too much for everything. I made mistakes but they didn't result in anything dangerous.

I shifted to off-the-shelf batteries and have been running them daily since April. There were a few balancing issues but the system has settled in nicely. It's an off-grid back-up system with low power demands but I run it daily. With a metal case, BMS, fuse, and cables I'm at USD $0.35 per watt hour including tax & shipping.

$.35 vs $.15 compounded over a large 100-200 KW system is $35,000 Off the shelf vs $15,000 DIY or $70,000 off the shelf vs 30,000 DIY.
50%+ savings plus the knowledge to keep it working.

It’s a no brainer unless you just have money to burn.

Granted it’s not for everyone but this is a DIY forum.

 

[Brassburnz]

$.35 vs $.15 compounded over a large 100-200 KW system is $35,000 Off the shelf vs $15,000 DIY or $70,000 off the shelf vs 30,000 DIY.
50%+ savings plus the knowledge to keep it working.

It’s a no brainer unless you just have money to burn.

Granted it’s not for everyone but this is a DIY forum.

I don't have money to burn and I agree $.35 vs $.15 is a huge difference. The cost of the cells in my batteries are $.20. Even $.20 vs $.15 is still a huge difference when scaling up to 100kw system. I can't afford a $15,000 system anyway.

The rest of my system, batteries not withstanding is as DIY as I can make it. Fuses, breakers, panels, charge controllers, inverter, solar panels, cables and lugs. I actually enjoy building battery, SCC, and inverter cables with the pneumatic crimper. I try to make them as clean as possible although the first ones were downright ugly.

I've learned how to trouble-shoot my system and it has been running fine for several months. I can scale up when the time comes, but it will happen in increments I can afford. Since the Federal Solar Tax Credit has been extended, I have a little more time to plan.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I don't have money to burn and I agree $.35 vs $.15 is a huge difference. The cost of the cells in my batteries are $.20. Even $.20 vs $.15 is still a huge difference when scaling up to 100kw system. I can't afford a $15,000 system anyway.

The rest of my system, batteries not withstanding is as DIY as I can make it. Fuses, breakers, panels, charge controllers, inverter, solar panels, cables and lugs. I actually enjoy building battery, SCC, and inverter cables with the pneumatic crimper. I try to make them as clean as possible although the first ones were downright ugly.

I've learned how to trouble-shoot my system and it has been running fine for several months. I can scale up when the time comes, but it will happen in increments I can afford. Since the Federal Solar Tax Credit has been extended, I have a little more time to plan.

Sure.
I understand that.
All lot of people can’t outlay that kind on money at the get go.
As long as you design the system to be expandable you are fine.

I did mine the same way. Started off with 40Kw then just kept adding batteries as I could afford them.

 

[Tony Scott]

Demand for batteries continues to rise, couple that with increasing materials cost and inflation? Prices aren’t dropping on ANYTHING any time soon.

The price increases you see now is from inflation, back log of shipping containers causing a shortage and increasing prices

 

[Tony Scott]

lol he’s a YouTube person with a large following.
Because he’s personable and genuine.

They want access to his demographics nothing else.

I’m Not on here growing anything from His knowledge.
Never even spoke to him.
Several others have made suggestions on certain subjects.

That’s a hell of an assumption considering you know zero about me.
As a matter of fact my wife and my Son both know how to troubleshoot and fix any aspect of the system.
They helped me build it as a family.

Yes everyone on a DIY forum wants to spend hours building stuff because it IS cheaper and they want to know how it works so they can fix it themselves if anything should happen.
It all comes back to self reliance.
Something most Americans are severely lacking in.

A VOM, IR meter, Capacity meter. So much equipment.
One build is all it takes to save upwards of 50%.

So say anything else is calling everyone here saying otherwise a liar.

People really need to learn how not to personalize Discussions on a form when speaking on a global nature, we’re talking about a global issue. nobody’s talking about you, When I give an example it is for a global group to think about and not an individual to assume it is directed at them.

 

[BlackWaterPark]

People really need to learn how not to personalize Discussions on a form when speaking on a global nature, we’re talking about a global issue. nobody’s talking about you, When I give an example it is for a global group to think about and not an individual to assume it is directed at them.

And yet, these personal interactions are of benefit to the global community, are they not? You asserted that all these companies are sending Mr Prowse their products to review because they are looking for his expert observations in order to improve upon their product, which is absolutely false, and Biasjo set the record straight. And for the most part, I'm pretty sure Prowse states repeatedly that he obtains the lions share of what he reviews through his own purchases anyway. But really, if you are really interested in making these exchanges more global and less personal in nature, perhaps it would help to refrain from quoting people directly, and not inserting little ad hominems such the accusation of deflection, eh? Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Tony Scott]

And yet, these personal interactions are of benefit to the global community, are they not? You asserted that all these companies are sending Mr Prowse their products to review because they are looking for his expert observations in order to improve upon their product, which is absolutely false, and Biasjo set the record straight. And for the most part, I'm pretty sure Prowse states repeatedly that he obtains the lions share of what he reviews through his own purchases anyway. But really, if you are really interested in making these exchanges more global and less personal in nature, perhaps it would help to refrain from quoting people directly, and not inserting little ad hominems such the accusation of deflection, eh? Physician, heal thyself.

He proved nothing, but you did

 

[ereams65]

I have a feeling that by the end of February, beginning of March, anyone who needs a battery will come running to the DIY community once they've been given a price for that 24/36/48v 150 Ah and up battery. The market is currently trying to prepare folks for what's downstream, but as usual, most aren't listening.

 

[Tony Scott]

I have a feeling that by the end of February, beginning of March, anyone who needs a battery will come running to the DIY community once they've been given a price for that 24/36/48v 150 Ah and up battery. The market is currently trying to prepare folks for what's downstream, but as usual, most aren't listening.

Those Companies use the same batteries you buy, except they purchase on a larger scale. Once something is massed produced you can’t eat the price, warranty or certifications that they go through. it will only be a matter of time before regulations on battery’s in homes come into play.

 

[Ampster]

it will only be a matter of time before regulations on battery’s in homes come into play.

Yes, it all depends on how rapidly NEC 2020 is adopted across the Country

 

[Why2Me]

If the truth be told, these assembled racks are little better than DIY
They source batteries, and other supplies from the same places as everyone else

 

[Brassburnz]

Sure.
I understand that.
All lot of people can’t outlay that kind on money at the get go.
As long as you design the system to be expandable you are fine.

I did mine the same way. Started off with 40Kw then just kept adding batteries as I could afford them.

Before I decided to purchase a complete battery I sourced the components. I was able to price out the raw cells, BMS, fuse holder, fuse, and cables. The only thing I couldn't find a price for was the metal case. The battery is DIY serviceable with easy access to the cells should they need to be replaced or upgraded. I couldn't DIY this battery for any less than the price of a complete battery. On top of everything else, the warehouse is local to me. Batteries arrived in less than a week after I placed the order.

For some reason, my second order a few months later was billed twice and I received two shipments. Returning the order was quick and easy for me, but I don't think the UPS driver was too happy about dropping off 200 lbs. of batteries and then taking 100 lbs. back a few days later. The way things are going now, I should have kept them. Currently OOS and more expensive.

 

[Batvette]

I think that some of the low tier prebuilts might have some pretty sketchy construction and wiring quality if one were to tear them apart. After seeing a few reviews of (I think it was) the chins batteries on amazon, and having experience making heavy battery cables and wiring in car audio competition applications, I didnt feel comfortable putting my vehicle at risk to save a buck with someone elses shoddy work. Especially if you void the warranty just opening it up to find out and make it right.
Of course not all mfrs are that bad nor do all DIYers know how to make durable 1/0 battery cables or flexible buss bars. Or even want to sit in front of a torch with colorful flames and dripping lead solder spattering around them.
Ill do it on the living room couch cuz I dont have a wife screaming at me not to get any on her white carpets.

How dumb are white carpets anyway?

I think what the theory here might be missing is that whether mobile or fixed, so much of a solar and storage system is going to be inherently custom, and often DIY, anyway. And its not that much more of a project to construct the battery out of individual cells if youre already going to be wiring up a rooftop array, feed it to the bank, connect that to an inverter, etc.
If anything that beomes easier as the more people that have done it and shared their designs the less people will have to do it from scratch or feel the need to go overboard building something to show off.
But there will always be situations where if you want something unusual or specific youll have to do it yourself

 

[toms]

If the truth be told, these assembled racks are little better than DIY
They source batteries, and other supplies from the same places as everyone else

No, they don’t. The exact reason i DIY is because there are no commercial offerings available that match the quality of the components i use.

 

[Quattrohead]

No, they don’t. The exact reason i DIY is because there are no commercial offerings available that match the quality of the components i use.

Did you look at Wills latest review on the EG4 unit ? No one has DIY'ed a better unit, I bet my right nut on it.