Any well pump experts? I had a thought...

[Rednecktek]

So I had a thought about my well pump. I'm in the process of trying to get my cabin On Grid right now, and while I'm building an off-grid solar for the cabin itself, that won't run my well pump. If I wanted to be able to run my well pump I'd have to get a 48v AGM or FLA 8-12 battery (4s/2-3p - $$$$) battery bank (because freezing!) a 6kw Low Frequency Split Phase inverter ($$!!$$), a 48v MPPT controller ($$) and a stack of panels ($$$) to get the 2500Wh a day I need (on average) just to run the 300ft deep 2500w 240v well pump. That's "Real Money" and I have cats to feed.

So I had a thought about rigging up a mechanical positive displacement pump in parallel with a big flywheel and some sort of gearbox/bicycle setup outside to pump up the pressure tanks (see doodle) on pedal power. Since the whole system takes about 10-15 minutes to do it's initial tank charge and water line fill (bleeding the air and such) and then only runs for about 5-6 minutes to recharge the tanks when they're drawn down (not a LOT of water usage) it only actually runs for 30-45 minutes a day on average. Currently I just fire up the big generator and power it that way but that's a lot of starting and stopping.

This whole idea can be killed really easy with 1 question though and that's why I'm hoping someone here has some extensive knowledge of how well pumps work. Can I "Suck" water 300ft up the pipe through the existing pump? I.E. will the water get past the impeller and such down at the bottom of the well or will the pump itself stop any water from getting through the pipe if the pump itself isn't running?

I just installed a new controller box and the pump house sits over the well head (see photo) so replacing the pump is pretty much a No-Go without moving the entire pump house (8x16) up and over the head and leaving it exposed to the elements.

Or is my crack habit flaring up again?

 

[Rednecktek]

I just realized I forgot to put in the pressure relief valve that dumps outside. When it squirts stop pedaling and hit the brakes.

 

[Fusion is the future]

I ´m using a deep well submersible 120V 1/2 horse pump to pump it in a just under ground cistern (1500 L) from there pump it into a roof tank (800 L) than trough a hydro unit and we have al day long 44 PSI water pressure, all automatic controlled by float switches .
All water is potable but for security we filter it at 5 micron and it goes trough an UV sterilizer .
We flush our toilets with potable water, that is nice !
Our well is 8 meter deep (24 feet )

 

[Broadshield]

Your idea of drawing water up from a 300ft deep well is not going to work. Drawing water up a pipe is limited to about 34ft, any greater draw will result in the water "boiling." That's why pumps are placed at the bottom of deep wells.

 

[Rednecktek]

Your idea of drawing water up from a 300ft deep well is not going to work. Drawing water up a pipe is limited to about 34ft, any greater draw will result in the water "boiling." That's why pumps are placed at the bottom of deep wells.

OK, I don't understand that, but that's why I asked.

My thought was that with the check valves in place the water column stays right at the top of the well head and a positive displacement pump should be able to draw that up the foot or so between the top of the column and into the pump.

What am I missing?

 

[Fusion is the future]

OK, I don't understand that, but that's why I asked.

My thought was that with the check valves in place the water column stays right at the top of the well head and a positive displacement pump should be able to draw that up the foot or so between the top of the column and into the pump.

What am I missing?

Your pump can NOT suck up that water collum , it is a centrifugal pump and they do not suck well , if you get my drift.
You need a submergible well pump,
something like this

Submersible Pump, 4" Deep Well, 1 HP, 110V, 33 GPM, 207 ft Max, long life NEW - - Amazon.com

Submersible Pump, 4" Deep Well, 1 HP, 110V, 33 GPM, 207 ft Max, long life NEW - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[Rednecktek]

Sadly, as mentioned, replacing the pump is NOT an option, there's a building in the way.

I was planning on a vane or diaphragm pump because, as you mentioned, centrifugal pumps don't suck.

It looks like if I want to do this I gotta drop a little over $3500 in parts and batteries. I was hoping to have a backup for a few hundred bucks. It's a 3Hp pump down there according to the amperage draw, or a smaller one that is HORRIBLY inefficient.

If anyone is interested, I was looking at these for the solar option:
Aims 4kw LF 48v Split Phase inverter
EPEver 60a 48v MPPT
4x Newpowah 200w panel kits for 8 panels total
8x WallyWorld 122Ah FLA batteries in 4s2p config
Fuses, wires, etc.
Grand total about $3500

 

[Supervstech]

A deep well needs the pump at the bottom…

 

[Supervstech]

Sadly, as mentioned, replacing the pump is NOT an option, there's a building in the way.

I was planning on a vane or diaphragm pump because, as you mentioned, centrifugal pumps don't suck.

It looks like if I want to do this I gotta drop a little over $3500 in parts and batteries. I was hoping to have a backup for a few hundred bucks.

If anyone is interested, I was looking at these for the solar option:
Aims 4kw LF 48v Split Phase inverter
EPEver 60a 48v MPPT
4x Newpowah 200w panel kits for 8 panels total
8x WallyWorld 122Ah FLA batteries in 4s2p config
Fuses, wires, etc.
Grand total about $3500

If the building has a doorway, the pump piping should be flexible enough to raise it out the door… we used a truck to pull our 200’ pump out to repair the failing pipes.

 

[Rednecktek]

If the building has a doorway, the pump piping should be flexible enough to raise it out the door… we used a truck to pull our 200’ pump out to repair the failing pipes.

I thought about that too until I found out that it's hard pipe all the way down so I'd have to either move the pump house or cut a big hole in the roof.

I don't know why, it was installed by the previous owner's dad in the 80's.

 

[JAS]

@Rednecktek ,

Our cabin is very similar. My well is down 500'. So even a 120v submersible wasn't going to cut it. (Well, maybe a Grundfus (sp?). But, the well driller already had to go 200' more than we were expecting and costs were rising...

So for the first two years, we did what you are doing. Fire up the big loud 240v generator just to pump up the pressure tank every time we needed. (Which, when the whole family was up, flushing toilets, doing dishes, taking showers, etc. was a real PITA)

Then I changed the whole setup: I removed the standard pressure tank and replaced with a 60 gallon holding tank that I got from Tractor Supply, installed an RV 120v pump and a very small pressure tank (like beer ball size) to keep the pump from constantly cycling. Now, I just fire up the generator when we first arrive to fill up the holding tank (and the hot water heater if necessary). Runs for about 20-30 minutes. That 60 gallons will keep 1 or 2 of us going for the entire weekend. If the entire family is up for an extended weekend, I'll have to start it 2 or 3 more times during our stay to fill up. But, that is so much better than having to get up first thing in the morning to fire it up because everyone is using the toilet

 

[Kornbread]

Curious about the holding tank; do you treat or filter the water before drinking?

 

[JAS]

Curious about the holding tank; do you treat or filter the water before drinking?

Well, I do pour a bit of chlorine in each time I fill it. So it is probably safe to drink. But, wouldn't taste very good. I use it for brushing teeth. But, otherwise we just use bottled water for drinking

 

[Rednecktek]

I just have a couple of filters between the pressure tanks and the line heading to the cabin. When I first bought the place and got the well running again my wife and I took up 4 different makes & models of water testing kits. We compared the well water to our home water to generic bottled water to name brand water and the cabin's well water was cleaner and more pure than any of the others once the sediment was filtered out.

It's very tasty water out there.

 

[wild01]

When you say hard pipe, is it metal pipe all the way down or just hard plastic?

 

[Rednecktek]

My understanding from the old well report is that it's 1" sch40 steel all the way down. Unfortunately I'm off the coast of Korea for the next 5 months so I'm not in any position to open it up and look inside.

This is more of a "SHTF concept" thought than actual production at this time. If physics were going to say "No Way In Hell" then I can stop pursuing it.

 

[RCinFLA]

OK, I don't understand that, but that's why I asked.

My thought was that with the check valves in place the water column stays right at the top of the well head and a positive displacement pump should be able to draw that up the foot or so between the top of the column and into the pump.

What am I missing?

It's not just the depth of well head but the depth of water table but I assume if you are going down 300' your water table is lower than 34'.

Below 34' water table you get close to a perfect vacuum pulling from surface meaning water boils off at lower temps of 35-50 degs F.

Sometimes you go a lot deeper than water table to get better quality water. I use a surface pump and my well head is about 55' down but water table is only about 15' down. At 20' down I get swamp water.

I'm not very familiar with mountainous regions but I have heard that some deep wells will be gushers due to a higher mountain lake miles away. Just have to be lucky.

 

[wild01]

My understanding from the old well report is that it's 1" sch40 steel all the way down. Unfortunately I'm off the coast of Korea for the next 5 months so I'm not in any position to open it up and look inside.

This is more of a "SHTF concept" thought than actual production at this time. If physics were going to say "No Way In Hell" then I can stop pursuing it.

As has been explained already, if your standing water level is more than 34 feet down the well you cannot pull enough suction to move water from the surface.
My suggestion would be to replace the pump and pipe. This can be done without cutting a hole in the ceiling, but it will require more than one person.
First verify you have a retrieval line on the pump. Then one person pulls the pipe up until it hits the ceiling the other person cuts it off with a cutoff wheel on a grinder...rinse repeat until the pump is out of the well. Make sure you have secured the retrieval line before beginning so that if you drop the pipe into the casing you can pull it back up. Drop a grundfos SQ back in on a flexible pipe. Bob's your uncle. Can be done with 2 people but I would use 3. Remember to disinfect the well when done... Gallon of bleach/cup of pool shock etc. Should be able to be done diy for 8-900 assuming you reuse the existing wire. Leave it sit for 24 hrs after and then run the pump until you've flushed out most of the bleach. Always disinfect anytime you get into a well.

 

[Wellbuilt]

I don’t know why any one would drop a pump down on steel pipe 300’ ?
You can do 500’ with regular black coil .
3hp is a big pump good for 8/900 feet
steel pipe Is really only good for 20 years or so depending on your water .
Pumping water uses power .
I have been using 2 275 gallon square totes and a 250 gallon in door tank?
The totes freeze for a few months mostly Jan feb here , a 3hp pump running on a generator will fill the tanks in no time .
I use a grundfos SQF 6-3 it’s a solar pump but runs on any type of power .
It uses half the power of a SQ and has no serge, it uses 700 watts running off my inverter @ 6gallons a min.
Just pump water with the generator untill your pump dies then change it .
if you have steel drop tube it will be11/4” and 300’ is not coming up by hand I used a E-see up well puller
I rented it .
My pump weighs 780lb with plastic 1” pipe
That is # 2 and # 5 son running pipe into the ground .

 

[Rednecktek]

I don’t know why any one would drop a pump down on steel pipe 300’ ?

I think he must have "Known a Guy" and got a "Great Deal" on it. You should have seen the nightmare of electrical setup he had that fried my first generator!

The water table is about 200ft down, the hole is 305ft according to the drilling report (those things are useful!) and I figured when I was forced to replace it I'd drop the new one down a lot lower. I've run that well dry before trying to get the plumbing all sealed up.

So basically physics says Nope. OK, that's why I asked. It's still working now but draws 11a on each leg of a 220v breaker so the math says either 3Hp or 30% efficient.

I guess I'll put it on the list to replace the pump someday with a solar based one, just not any time soon. I'm still trying to get out there to install the array and system so I can run the lights without the generator running all night. Believe it or not it's REALLY hard to commute from South Korea to Eastern Washington in the 7 hours I have off between watches. ?