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EVE280 high C rates anyone?

Hmm, not ideal that's for sure. Is 10% lower capacity a deal breaker for your application?

I may learn to accept it ... I'm going to create a 2p16s battery so I'm going to have "fun" matching up the cells properly...

Some of this exercise is just validating what the vendor is selling. If they're selling 280 and I can't squeeze anything more than 270 out of them, that's a problem.
 
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I may learn to accept it ... I'm going to create a 2p16s battery so I'm going to have "fun" matching up the cells properly...

Some of this exercise is just validating what the vendor is selling. If they're selling 280 and I can't squeeze anything more than 270 out of them, that's a problem.
Perhaps the problem is that those specifications, are for grade A cells from Eve.... and perhaps those ( the one we are buying) are not following those specifications aka not grade A, reason they are sold at this discount.
 
I can't squeeze anything more than 270 out of them, that's a problem.
You may want to manage your expectations. I sized my pack under the assumption that I would only use 80 percent of the packs capacity. That comes out to be 224 Ahrs. I have been exercising my pack for the past three months with no issues. During the past 20 days with colder weather and more use of my Forced Air Unit fan I have tested that assumption and it seems to be a reasonable assumption that is a practical constraint. My cells are in an unheated garage and the temperature log tells me that they never went below 48 degrees Fahrenheit during the past 30 days.

Overall at an average cost of $120 per kWh I knew that only using 80 percent of the capacity these cells were actually costing me $150 per kWh. To me that is still a very good price compared to CALBs purchased locally at $300 to $400 per kWh.
 
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Perhaps the problem is that those specifications, are for grade A cells from Eve.... and perhaps those ( the one we are buying) are not following those specifications aka not grade A, reason they are sold at this discount.
I think you are most likely right.

But the issue is that the resellers (most of them at least) represent them as meeting manufacturer specifications (and some of them outright represent them as grade A, or claim to capacity test all cells individually). A few folks on the forum have really latched on to the (in my opinion unsupported and unlikely) claim that these are grade A cells, I think this is misleading to new members and newbies and leads to unrealistic expectations about cell quality and about the level of opacity and integrity of the market.

Almost weekly there are questions in the beginner section along the lines of "I bought matched grade A EVE cells from a trusted seller, do I still need a BMS or can I just use a charge controller" or "I bought well matched grade A EVE cells, do I still need to balance?"

If a cell does not meet its capacity specification (or any other specification), it is not a grade A cell, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad cell or a bad value (it could still be a great value), but it should be accurately and honestly represented by the seller (and if a seller misrepresents a cell, we should acknowledge that, not amplify the misrepresentation).

The funny thing about the grey market for raw cells is we know there are tons of B grade cells that get offloaded to the grey market to be sold at a discount, and most grey market cells are selling at deeply discounted prices, yet somehow nobody is selling or buying B grade cells.. ;)
 
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Despite protestations to the contrary I have assumed I was getting B grade cells. They have been a good value to me.
I think this is a very sensible, reasonable/realistic approach to take (with almost any grey market cells). And if you limit your expectations, and design around less optimistic parameters, there is no harm, and it increases the likelihood of having your expectations (and design assumptions) met or exceeded.
 
For the price and time to do all that work I just ordered a second string. Skipped that leaves me very satisfied.

People buying used battery packs deal with weak cells all the time, even as a rule (which is why they ended up on the used market), and we pay less than those units sell for!!
 
Except that lishen 272's are testing over 280 for the same price. And I was under the impression that these would deliver 280 based on all the prior reading I'd done here about them. Like I said, I'm not truly upset and I'm not losing sleep over it, but I want to make sure people here understand that you are NOT going to get over 280 on these EVE which is unusual given the listing and prior reports.
 
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Except that lishen 272's are testing over 280 for the same price. And I was under the impression that these would deliver 280 based on all the prior reading I'd done here about them. Like I said, I'm not truly upset and I'm not losing sleep over it, but I want to make sure people here understand that you are NOT going to get over 280 on these EVE which is unusual given the listing and prior reports.
Your experience and testing (and how well you are documenting) will help others, I am sure of that.

And I think you are justified in feeling that the resellers and this community to some degree misrepresented the condition and level of uncertainty/variability/risk with these and other grey market cells. This is (unfortunately) to be expected from the resellers but the community should strive to do better and take care not to misrepresent opinions or hopes as fact.

I think its reasonable and rational to expect to get what you paid for. I think that we should both moderate our expectations while still expect to get a product that matches what we were promised (paradoxical, I know :rolleyes: ). And I think the more people objectively test and document their purchase and their process like you are, the more we can learn as a community and the more informed and discerning we can be going forward.
 
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Except that lishen 272's are testing over 280 for the same price. And I was under the impression that these would deliver 280 based on all the prior reading I'd done here about them. Like I said, I'm not truly upset and I'm not losing sleep over it, but I want to make sure people here understand that you are NOT going to get over 280 on these EVE which is unusual given the listing and prior reports.
Honestly I feel bad for you. I did a lot of prior reading too and thought we would do better than what we did. My own opinion is anything less than 270ah's capacity for the EVE cells is unacceptable even though we should be seeing at least 280ah's from them. I blame the supplier. Basen lied, plain and simple. Claiming a cell is Grade A when it clearly isn't, and claiming each cell was tested for capacity when they clearly were not is horrible IMO. We paid for 280ah cells and that's not what we received. Basen is not the only supplier guilty of this.

I think we have to see more testing to confirm Lishen's are any better than EVE cells although initial reports are promising. But I think @Craig has had mixed results with his testing. In my case I will be happy with the 272ah's I get from my EVE pack. My cell readings just before the end of the last discharge are as follows, cell 1 to 8. 2.987 2.788 2.999 2.964 2.918 2.967 2.542 2.827 There is a .445 volt difference between the highest and lowest cell. At the top when charging there is less than a 100mv difference when the charger cuts off.

I should have tested all my cells but I didn't think it would be beneficial and I still don't. I decided if I could get better than 270ah's from the pack that would be good enough for me.
 
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I'm not sure if this forum inspired unrealistic expectations or if the cells have changed recently.
From all the reading I did around here, I expected to get 280Ah too.

But I am not disappointed. I think my charge discharge limits will be the same either way so it won't make a difference.

Who cares if the cells diverge in the area I will never use?

I could have set up my batteries without checking capacity or IR and everything would be the same.

The learning experience is interesting though. If I ever do have a problem with a cell I will be better prepared to check it out.

Everything I read says you get less capacity at higher C rates.
 
My cell readings just before the end of the last discharge are as follows, cell 1 to 8. 2.987 2.788 2.999 2.964 2.918 2.967 2.542 2.827 There is a .445 volt difference between the highest and lowest cell. At the top when charging there is less than a 100mv difference when the charger cuts off.
Such a large voltage difference at deep discharge can actually be caused by quite a small difference in capacity - it’s just the cliff off which the voltage falls in the discharge curve is so sharply angled downwards.

I think @Ampster has it right - oversize your pack so you only need to use 80% of rated capacity and thus stay away from the region where the cell voltages diverge sharply. You’ll get a much longer service life that way as well.
 
Everything I read says you get less capacity at higher C rates.
That might be true. But EVE tests their cells at 1C charge and discharge rates although they rate the standard at .5C rates. So according to EVE we should be able to get a minimum of 280ah's at a 1C discharge rate.
Who cares if the cells diverge in the area I will never use?
I don't care about that either. These are not capacity matched cells. The point being made is for everyone to understand the EVE cells are not 280ah capacity grade A cells, as advertised by the suppliers.
 
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When I set my limits to 3.1V - 3.35V my active balancer will never turn on.

I'll be using the recommended 80% capacity.

What would matched cells do for me?
 
Such a large voltage difference at deep discharge can actually be caused by quite a small difference in capacity - it’s just the cliff off which the voltage falls in the discharge curve is so sharply angled downwards.

I think @Ampster has it right - oversize your pack so you only need to use 80% of rated capacity and thus stay away from the region where the cell voltages diverge sharply. You’ll get a much longer service life that way as well.
Yes I understand all of that. Between 25.35 and 27.25 is the sweet spot for my pack. Since I will be using the pack as an emergency backup I will keep it at around a 70% SOC based on the 272ah's I have to avoid degradation from storing at a high SOC. That equals roughly 190ah's.
 
But... if I had matched cells I would not worry about using the full capacity. Using 80% or running full cycles could be a wash as far as the lifetime of the cells? That's leaving 20% on the table. Personally I wouldn't worry about it. I would use as needed. I don't think many people run their packs a full cycle each and every day.
 
The point for me is that I get a better deal from Alibaba because I am comfortable lowering my expectations.

I am not going to change Alibaba or China. I have to deal with what is available.

I can buy from Amazon and sellers will live up to my expectations. At a cost.
 
That might be true. But EVE tests their cells at 1C charge and discharge rates although they rate the standard at .5C rates. So according to EVE we should be able to get a minimum of 280ah's at a 1C discharge rate.
What is more likely to happen is we will get similar results to Cinergi when we start using higher C rates
 
I'm not sure if this forum inspired unrealistic expectations or if the cells have changed recently.
From all the reading I did around here, I expected to get 280Ah too.

But I am not disappointed. I think my charge discharge limits will be the same either way so it won't make a difference.
From the sound of it, I don't think you have any reason to be hugely disappointed, or at least not more than a few % disappointed.

I think there is a big gap between being disappointed in your purchase and acknowledging and documenting shortcomings or misrepresentations. And being reasonably upset/frustrated.

Everything I read says you get less capacity at higher C rates.
This is true, so most people testing at well below 0.5C or 1C should be getting more than 280 not less.

Who cares if the cells diverge in the area I will never use?
One reason why it matters (beyond the obvious, getting what you paid for) is that if for instance you plan to use 85% (95-10) of your capacity to maximize cycle life, now imagine your lowest capacity cell is 10% less than its siblings. Meaning your pack (without any bandwidth limiting) is limited to 90% of nominal capacity from the get go, but you planned to only cycle between 95% and 10% to maximize cycle life, if you want to stick to that, your new 95-10% range is 95-10% of 90%.

Using a 100Ah pack as an example:
100Ah nominal, with a 90Ah weak cell = 90Ah usable capacity
Applying a 95-10% bandwidth to your pack now = 76.5Ah usable capacity due to the weak cell.
This roughly the same % capacity loss as would occur if you planned to use all 100Ah

A lot of people erase the undercapacity in their minds in the fuzzy math of limiting themselves to 80% SOC or so (I thought that way for a long time too, it wasn't until I drew it out visually that I understood my error). But the capacity loss whether your bandwidth is 100% or 80% is the same, its just less visible in the 80% example. Since the buffers kinda 'absorb the missing capacity' mentally.

Is this making sense? This is the way I think about it, but I'm glaringly aware of my ability to get shit wrong :)

All that said, a few % isn't usually a huge deal in practice, most people think of the capacities of the Lishen and EVE and ETC cells pretty interchangeably I think, even though they differ by a few %.


What would matched cells do for me?
More even wear rates, and more potential usable capacity are what come to mind

One thing I've been thinking about lately--and I'm not 100% sure i've got it right but I'm going to throw it out there and see what the consensus is--is that one issue with mismatched (capacity) cells is that the cell that is already the lowest capacity is going to be cycled marginally harder than the rest, meaning more wear, meaning slightly accelerated degradation/capacity loss, sortof a slow gradual vicious cycle.

Of course if the difference in capacity is small, or the use case is very gentle/low intensity, or the pack is seldomly cycled all the way to near zero, its maybe not a big enough deal to even care about. And that describes the situation for most of us.

But I am curious, in theory does my thinking hold up?
 
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