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Which Charge profile is ok for LifePo4?

So this is not how I thought it would work. I thought that my charger being a dumb device would just charge away and when the BMS decided the batteries were full it would cut them out... now you're telling me I'm wrong about that and that the charger should know when they're full and stop charging? I'm reading my charger/inverter manual and it looks like it never wants to stop charging and I thought it was the BMS that was going to stop the batteries from receiving more charge then they should? I am so confused right now.
The BMS is supposed to be the last in line to defend against overcharging or over discharging the cells. Using the GEL or AGM setting, your inverter will cut off the bulk/absorption charge and go into float. If something went wrong with your inverter and it failed to cut off the charge, then the BMS would be there to protect the cells. This will work quite nicely with your inverter providing you don't have a runner cell.

When discharging you may have to rely on your BMS to cut off the load because the voltage difference of your cells at the bottom may vary more since you are parallel top balancing. And if you want to stay within the knees. I don know off hand what the LVD of that inverter is but I think it's 10 volts. It's likely one of your cells will be discharged to 2.5 volts before the pack voltage is 10 volts.

Keep in mind the cells are not capacity matched. So the weakest cell will determine the capacity of your battery. BTW, what are you using this for? How often do you plan to cycle the pack?
 
The BMS is supposed to be the last in line to defend against overcharging or over discharging the cells. Using the GEL or AGM setting, your inverter will cut off the bulk/absorption charge and go into float.
This clears up a lot thank you, knowing that the charger does actually go into float rather then stay in bulk/absorption, which I can/will test later.

I ordered way more capacity then I think I'll ever need so i don't think I'll be discharging it very low. Sailboat application, I have 620W of solar to charge when at anchor and when not using to motor to move somewhere. The boat is at dock most of the year but one day hopefully it won't be. We have a capacity of 1120ah and currently use around 250ah per day, we should be able to last 4.5 days without any charging. With solar charging on a nice sunny day we should get 350-450ah and the days we run the engine we also get 45ah from the alternator, more after that gets upgraded. On our last trip with our old LA batteries(500ah rating) we were usually charged up before noon, just gotta watch out for those rainy days!

My plan was to make four 4s "batteries" from 16 cells, I have 4 BMSs. I know you don't have to do this and most probably wouldn't but I wanted redundancy and to not stress the FET based BMSs at all so they will last a long time. They are rated for 120a and with that 3kw inverter I'll be able to pull 200+ amps just making eggs on toast if using my induction top and toaster. Plus there will be the regular loads on like lights, fridge, water pumps and cell/laptop/etc chargers etc etc. (Our daily usage on anchor will increase a lot when we stop cooking with propane.) That much usage on the BMSs would mean they would almost never have to work past 50% rated capacity and should last a long time.

I've been an electrician for 20+ years and have done a lot of things from residential/commercial to industrial commissioning to low voltage control systems. I know regular electrical fairly well but I've never really worked with low voltage DC other then the subs I had in my car as a kid. I really appreciate your help and I'm glad to share my questions in case there are others who can learn from it too.

I think the next thing I have to look into is at what voltage the solar charger kicks in and out and if I am going to need a voltage based cutoff device or better yet something that can route excess solar power to the water heater after the batteries are charged up...
 
I have a WFCO converter for lead acid. No equalization. 14.4v bulk, 13.6 absorption, 13.2 float. Never saw it go to 14.4v, even with discharged batteries. On some pictures I see a row of 3 blue pots. I'm tempted to grab my meter and go play. Might make a LifePo4 charger out of it.
This is interesting. I am remote monitoring my WFCO 8955 Lance with a Valance battery. It is sitting at 13.177 and still showing discharge. A minor tweak might let it settle at 50% SOC if the absorption doesn't kick in without additional load.
 
This is interesting. I am remote monitoring my WFCO 8955 Lance with a Valance battery. It is sitting at 13.177 and still showing discharge. A minor tweak might let it settle at 50% SOC if the absorption doesn't kick in without additional load.
I did some research and found a forum discussion on 9800 series: WFCO discussion
Seems that shorter heavy gauge wire runs to battery are getting the 14.4v bulk cycle.
Two pots are current limit, Input (soft start?) and Output. One pot for voltage adjustment. (8900 series?)
Microprocessor controls mode and timing.
 
If I understand this correctly what you are saying is that picking the AGM setting might overcharge my batteries? I thought the lower voltage was going to protect them from being overcharged? I guess what I am trying to ask is why/how is it a bad thing when the lower voltages are a good thing?
When I was researching this for myself I found out that some AGM or lead acid chargers have a high voltage phase that can go up to 15 volts.

Secondly, lifepo cells do not like to be floated. Every company that makes these cells and every science based paper I have read on this says this. So I take them seriously.

Third, it is simply the wrong type of charger. Many companies said that lithium was a drop in replacement for lead acid and that people could use the older lead acid chargers. However, over the next few years this has proven not to be the case and damage to cells has ensued.

It is certainly possible to charge lithium cells with an AGM charger. It is also possible to survive a lightening strike.

If you wish to try it then please go for it. have fun.

But if you want your cells to last a long time and stay safe etc then.
One, use a proper charger. Two, put them in a box that prevents the sides from swelling up. Two, never let them go above 45 Celsius. Never charge them at below 0 Celsius.
Those are the basics. Or you can spend 3 months doing the reading and watching as I did and learn it yourself LOL.
With OCD I was able to limit myself to between 6 and 18 hours of studying a day.
I am sure you can do better now that you have narrowed it down to specifics though. :)

It is a big subject. With little profit as the industry is still kind of new.
But if you look for research papers and ask the companies that make the cells you can lessen your study load to a few days I am sure.
I was not quite that smart at the beginning though and wasted a lot of time. But then again I have no life and so I have the time LOL. :)
 
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Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the serious discussion and I always mean to show mutual respect so please don't take me out of that context. I am here to learn.
When I was researching this for myself I found out that some AGM or lead acid chargers have a high voltage phase that can go up to 15 volts.
My charger does have a desulphation mode but I would never think about doing that, it certainly doesn't happen automatically.
Secondly, lifepo cells do not like to be floated. Every company that makes these cells and every science based paper I have read on this says this. So I take them seriously.

Third, it is simply the wrong type of charger. Many companies said that lithium was a drop in replacement for lead acid and that people could use the older lead acid chargers. However, over the next few years this has proven not to be the case and damage to cells has ensued.

One, use a proper charger.
Will recommends certain float voltages on this forum in his recommended voltages pinned thread. The "best" chargers, the Victrons, have float modes in their chargers. I've heard people say before that LiFePo4 shouldn't be float charged but I'm not seeing any chargers that don't have a float mode. What is your solution? What do you have for your setup? do you have a schematic so I can study it and understand this better? And a charger recommendation? Are you using some home brew electronics to monitor voltage and shut off your chargers like Danny Jensen?

Thank you in advance :) I would like to survive a lightening strike if it ever happened!
 
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the serious discussion and I always mean to show mutual respect so please don't take me out of that context. I am here to learn.

My charger does have a desulphation mode but I would never think about doing that, it certainly doesn't happen automatically.

Will recommends certain float voltages on this forum in his recommended voltages pinned thread. The "best" chargers, the Victrons, have float modes in their chargers. I've heard people say before that LiFePo4 shouldn't be float charged but I'm not seeing any chargers that don't have a float mode. What is your solution? What do you have for your setup? do you have a schematic so I can study it and understand this better? And a charger recommendation? Are you using some home brew electronics to monitor voltage and shut off your chargers like Danny Jensen?

Thank you in advance :) I would like to survive a lightening strike if it ever happened!
The AGM and GEL charge profiles are perfectly safe to use because they have the same charging profiles that a LifePo4 charger has. Floating these cells has always been up for debate. Since you will always be drawing a load and cycling your cells you won't have any problems. You also have the right idea of making 4 battery packs and each having it's own BMS for redundancy. You are definitely on the right track.

I am using a Riden for now to charge my cells and have a cheap 1000 watt inverter to test them. The 1000 watt inverter is going back. I knew this when I bought it from Amazon. I will be buying an inverter charger but I still haven't decided on what to get.

I am leaning towards the Samlex EVO 1200 watt one since it's mostly plug and play, and LVD and HVD can be programmed. The only thing I don't like is having to buy the LCD monitor which is needed in order to program it. Since my use is for emergency power back up and I won't be using the battery often, that inverter would be a good solution for me. I don't want my cells to be sitting at a high SOC. However there are other inverter chargers I like and yours is an example. I will make a decision before the end of January.

I don't know enough about the solar side of things to comment on that. I am currently in an apartment and as much as I would love to have solar added there is no way to do that here.
 
Third, it is simply the wrong type of charger.
I think you have a misunderstanding. He is using an inverter/charger with a built in AC transfer switch. Many on this forum are using them whether they are made by Sigineer, Aims, Sungoldpower and so on. There are also many members using AIO's such as MPP Solar and Growatt and none have reported any issues charging LifePo4 batteries that I am aware of. They all have multiple modes for charging. Using the AGM or GEL setting charges the battery at a lower voltage. There is nothing wrong with that and it's a good idea for extending the life of the battery.

Regarding float voltage, yes it can be bad if using a high float voltage and the cells are left at a high SOC for a long time. However most have continuous loads on the cells and cycle them frequently. So float is not a problem.
 
Restating some of what I said in private message, in case it is useful to others:

Any charge profile can be used regardless of what it is called, so long as the specific parameters are acceptable and you are confident you understand the specifics of (1) what LFP wants (2) what the charge profile you select does.

There are some lead acid specific features and parameters that are not well suited for LFP (equalization, high float, temperature compensation) that should be avoided. I believe some of these factors are what Sherilyn has in mind. But if you find a profile that works for you, and understand how it works, don't worry about what its called.

Filterguy and I put together a general primer on Lifepo4 voltage parameters which may be of value here:
 
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the serious discussion and I always mean to show mutual respect so please don't take me out of that context. I am here to learn.

Will recommends certain float voltages on this forum in his recommended voltages pinned thread. The "best" chargers, the Victrons, have float modes in their chargers. I've heard people say before that LiFePo4 shouldn't be float charged but I'm not seeing any chargers that don't have a float mode. What is your solution? What do you have for your setup? do you have a schematic so I can study it and understand this better? And a charger recommendation? Are you using some home brew electronics to monitor voltage and shut off your chargers like Danny Jensen?

Thank you in advance :) I would like to survive a lightening strike if it ever happened!
No offence taken. I think I just might be a tad more serious about this is all and come across as such. Hard to fdefine some thing in text.

Ok as for floating. I think that there is a misconception in the term. If you charge a lead acid and then let it sit for 6 months on a float it will love it.
If you did the same for lifepo then you can harm the battery.
Lifepo loves to cycle. Lead acid loves to float.
I have never seen a recommendation to float lifepo beyond a day or a few hours.
If there is then please show me.
When storing lead acid you float them. When storing lifepo you deplete them to 50 to 60 % and then let them sit for as long as six months to a year.
What I did was top balance my cells and then I just lowered them to about 3 volts per cell and charged them to only 3.5 per cell afterwards. They stay within a few millivolts of each other and I am happy with that.
As for floating though. I only ever did it the one time when top balancing them and then only for a few hours.
After they were top balanced I immediately lowered the voltages through using my batteries.

So if floating as in keeping them near the top to top balance, and only for a few hours, then sure.
If you want to float them the same way one does lead acid then no. Never.
Anyhow, this is my recommendation.

I hope this helps. :)
 
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Well, Sherylin. It is only six rather short online articles that are free to read. I urge every one that wants to build their own LiFePo4 battery bank to read the whole (gasp) six articles. If you plan on a drop in replacement you could find something by Rod Collins.
 
Well, Sherylin. It is only six rather short online articles that are free to read. I urge every one that wants to build their own LiFePo4 battery bank to read the whole (gasp) six articles. If you plan on a drop in replacement you could find something by Rod Collins.
Four of the articles are not about lifepo however.. Only two of them are.
Also, some people have busy lives with family and jobs etc. So 6 articles is a lot to read.
Just because I have a lot of time to read. I do not ASSUME everyone else is capable of doing the same thing.
It is posting crap to think in such a way. But then again. Someone that hides and accuses others without saying who etc would know better about that than myself or others here.


Anyhow, yes "gasp". It is six articles and only four are relevant to the topic [see the threads title]. And also many here have lives and can not always afford to sit and read for hours on end.
So again, yes. I try to be helpful by posting the links rather than sending people to hunt for them.
I have respect for the lives of many of the people that come here seeking help. And not coming here to play games.
But then again I am an adult [senior actually] and not an adolescent. So maybe that helps as well. :)
 
I do not know why there is such confusion. I went back and opened the link in my post. Yes there are six articles. Each of the six discuss Lithium Iron Phosphate cells. It my not be evedent in the Headings, but each of the six articles are about building a LiFePo4 battery from prismatic cells. I still think everyone that wants to build their own DIY battery should at least read these articles to gain an understanding of what they are about. Shery thinks you are too lazy to read a few minutes of information. I guess that is why she will not link all the articles she has read on the subject. But when someone misrepresents me I get pissed. So I apologize for your misunderstanding. You are all on your own as I'm done with such fools.
 
I NEVER said I thought people were too lazy. I said that many are BUSY.
Lying about what I said while it is written for everyone to see is very bad.
And my name is not Shery. Read again. It is Sherylin.
You say you are being misrepresented and yet feel free to judge me and lie about me.
 
  • Zil is right that 6 piece series is all specifically relevant to lifepo4 and one of the best intermediate level resources available.
  • Zil is right that there has been a decent bit of (well intentioned) but misleading information in this post
  • Zil is wrong to let their frustration get the better of them (something that most all of us are all guilty of from time to time) and responding less than excellently rather than just clearly stating their point respectfully from the get go. We are all here (hopefully) to learn and to share.
Lets try to keep our discussions amicable and respectful.
  • Sherilyn, you bring up some good cautionary points, especially for beginners, but I would also caution not to overstate some of them. There have been some points you have given in this thread that are 'partly true' or 'kinda right' or 'right in a certain context' but also partial misunderstandings.
Where I think you are on the right track: (1) When in doubt, use only the lifepo4 profile with lifepo4 unless you understand what you are doing. (2) there are differences between what is healthy for LFP and what is healthy for Lead Acid (3) Avoid floating LFP at high voltage/SOC or even disable it completely.

Some of the things that I think need clarification / minor correction:
Float. What you think about this depends somewhat on how you define the term, unfortunately different people have different understandings of the term. I won't assert my understanding is right, but I understand float as the 3rd stage of 3 stage charging where a charger supplies the loads and attempts to hold the batteries at a certain voltage. Floating lifepo4 is not in and of itself a big problem (though some cycle life may be sacrificed). What is a problem is floating at full or near full SOC as is commonly done with lead acid. Some would say floating LFP is unnecessary or un-ideal (Dacian for instance). But it is acceptable to float LFP, here are a few datapoints:
  1. Victron (LiFePO4 profile) float: 3.375V (13.5V)
  2. Battleborn (reccomended max) float: <3.4V (13.6V)
  3. CALB (reccomended max) float: <3.4V (13.6V)
  4. Solacity (rules of thumb): Do not float at 100% SOC
  5. Marinehowto: 'standby voltage' of 90%, 98% or less / <3.4V (<13.6V) or disabled completely
*Note: some like marinehowto object to using the term 'float' to describe what is articulated above (holding voltage at <100% soc) and prefer the term 'standby voltage' to differentiate lead acid float from lifepo4 'standby'/float.

FLOAT CHARGING:

Float Charging – A continual charge voltage applied to the battery that is in excess of it’s natural resting 100% SoC voltage.

LFP batteries are not lead acid batteries and they were not designed nor intended to be “float charged“, in the typical lead acid sense (definition above). There is scant data on float charging LFP cells. At CMI we have two years of standby testing (see below) on LFP and unfortunately the data collected is all over the map. While we have a few premium branded LFP cylindrical 18650 cells that suffered zero capacity changes, after being held at 3.400V (13.6V for a 12V nominal bank) 24/7, for six months continuously, we also have capacity losses holding the same voltage on counterfeit cells and no-name LFP cylindrical cells exceeding 16%. We also have an 11% Capacity loss on some CALB SE prismatic cells from leaving them at 100% SOC and letting them sit for 12 months. In other-words the data is confusing at best and our float life testing here is still on-going.

Lack of a Definition for “Floating” LFP?​

Unfortunately there is no real definition for a voltage setting that is not holding an LFP battery at a voltage above the natural resting 100% SoC point, as we do with lead acid. There are really actually two types of voltages necessary for LFP;

Storage Voltage – A voltage setting, usually programmed using the float voltage setting on a lead-acid based charger, that results in the battery discharging to approximately 50% SoC (or a mid-range SoC) then being held there. A storage voltage would ideally be used anytime the batteries will not be used for any more than a a few weeks or so.

Standby Voltage – A voltage setting, usually programmed using the float voltage settings on a lead acid charger. This voltage should be one that results in the battery discharging to just below the full charge point of the battery or 90% SoC to 98% SoC, an being held there.

As can be seen “float” can be complicated with LFP. LFP batteries ideally need two differing types of voltages storage & standby but not “float“, in the lead acid sense, where we purposely hold the battery above the 100% SoC point.

Look at any of your tablets, cell phones iDevices etc. and they all terminate charge when the battery is full. They cut back in when battery terminal voltage has fallen to a preset level, but they do not hold a high voltage on a full battery.

Floating LFP is a certainly a complex subject with scant data. Bottom line is to avoid floating LFP banks if you can, but a standby or storage voltage setting can be used.. For a typical standby voltage you would be best to be below 13.6V or 3.400VPC. Some have argued that a continual standby voltage of 3.35VPC or lower (13.4V for a 12V nominal bank) is not badly damaging over the long haul, but it may be, so a storage voltage should also be considered as a longer term option.

Please understand that any voltage below the 100% SoC point, of the LFP battery, would not be considered “floating” it. If using a standby voltage at say 3.35V per cell, the current into the battery will end up at 0A and be slightly below the 100% SoC point.

Unfortunately, we don’t have enough data, across all cells, to confirm any capacity losses due to using a standby voltage that is held at or near 100% SoC. There is very little research and literature on holding LiFePo4 at or near 100% SoC. If a standby voltage is high enough it keeps you in the upper SoC range for long periods of time, and these batteries, according to every LFP cell maker we know of, prefers to see them sit at a mid-range SoC when not being used. This is where a storage voltage comes in. These cells were originally designed to be actively cycled.

Can you hold a standby voltage at 3.400VPC or 3.35VPC or lower? Absolutely, but we don’t really know the long term affects other than to say it is it may shorten the life of some cells and may cause little to no harm to others. The premium cylindrical cells we tested at 3.400VPC (using a very expensive very linear power supply), lost no quantifiable capacity but some of the cheap cells lost as much as 16% in the same time frame using the identical charge source. Do you or will you know the quality of the cells inside your own battery and how they actually handle a “standby voltage“?

Premium Cell #1 – 1100 mAh Rated – Base Line Capacity = 1.140 mAh – 6 Months at 3.400VPC = 1.130 mAh
Premium Cell #2 – 1500 mAh Rated – Base Line Capacity = 1.391 mAh – 6 Months at 3.400VPC = 1.387 mAh
Premium Cell #3 – 1500 mAh Rated – Base Line Capacity = 1.404 mAh – 6 Months at 3.400VPC = 1.403 mAh
No-Name Cell #4 – 1200 mAh Rated – Base Line Capacity = 1.101 mAh – 6 Months at 3.400VPC = 0.921 mAh
Counterfeit Cell #5 – 1500 mAh Rated – Base Line Capacity = 1.298 mAh – 6 Months at 3.400VPC = 1.192 mAh


If you will note above that only one of these cells delivered it’s rated capacity, cell #1. Three of them, the premium branded cells, lost virtually no capacity after six months at 3.400V and the two other cells, no-name brand and a counterfeit of one of the branded cells, lost quite a bit of usable capacity when floated at 3.400V or 13.6V for a 12V bank. The loses of capacity are likely due to the vendor using bargain basement, low quality internals.

Of the piles of white papers I have on LFP batteries not a single one of them has dealt with fractional “C” use of LiFePO4 and being held at 3.400VPC. The only float paper I have was using Mn doped LiFePO4 cells and in 24 months cells floated / maintained at 100% SOC and at 25ºC lost 30% of their capacity, without any cycling. What we do know is that storing these batteries at 100% SoC resting voltage (not even charging) can lead to capacity loss and is advised against.

The question of floating or standby voltages with LFP, and its impact on cycle life, is still very much unclear.

Bottom line on this subject?

If you choose to use a standby voltage be sure you are below 3.40VPC or 13.6V for a 12V nominal pack. Any voltage above this point will result in lead acid type float charging and holding the battery above the 100% SoC threshold.

FULL ARTICLE

General commentary on AGM or GEL setting, so long as you understand the particulars and the voltage parameters are okay and the lead acid specific aspects can be disabled (equalization, temp compensation, float at >resting voltage) I don't see an issue using a lead acid setting. For beginners or if you don't understand the particulars of the charge profile a dedicated lifepo4 setting is best. At least that is my 2c, but I won't pretend to be competent or confident on the matter.
 
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