The Chinese did not Invent Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries.

I loved Wills Rant video but if I remember correctly he made a statement that LiFePO4 batteries were created in China and that they are now making their own Technology. I am not calling out Will, I was just surprised when he said that because in 36 years of doing EE design work I have seen almost ZERO items that have been created in China. Their technological system does not even seem to rely on invention but almost completely on acquisition of inventions then reverse engineering and adaptation into new products.

LiFePO4 was of course an offshoot of John Goodenough's Lithium Ion design but the Iron Phosphate branch was created by University Of Texas-Austin plus MIT seems to also have some involvement along with the University of Montreal and CNRS.

Numerous Lawsuits over who controls the Patents have arisen over the last 10 years and at the end of the day it seems like the University of Texas-Austin has been squeezed out of the picture along with any claims Mr. Goodenough might have had.

The Patent owner now seems to be LiFePO4+C Inc. They seem to be a very aggressive company that is making sure they get paid for the use of LiFePO4 technology.

Here is a Link to their website: https://www.lifepo4ag.com/

I just wanted to clarify this for myself and felt a need to share what I found with other forum members.

Thanks for reading

robby said:

Their technological system does not even seem to rely on invention but almost completely on acquisition of inventions then reverse engineering and adaptation into new products.

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I think this were more true ten years ago than it is now.

Today they are becoming a leader in technology through their own work, rather than just reverse engineering others. I don't think they put a probe on Mars by copying our Perseverance. Hard to quantify that statement though. Kind of makes the burden of proof on someone else to prove they did.

If Will was wrong about the Chinese not inventing Lithium Batteries, than I think his overall point about the country being able to develop its own ideas is more valid than most think.

I think he had a good point about a lot of the younger people not wanting to put in the hard work it takes to get technical degrees, which goes hand in hand with other countries passing the US.

I heard the tech was developed in texas, too

3) IP rights kept LFP confined to the Chinese market; this will change after 2022​

LFP cathode producers explained to Roskill that the consortium managing LFP’s IP rights reached an agreement with the Chinese battery industry a decade ago in which, as long as LFP was produced and used within China, the consortium would not charge Chinese manufacturers a licensing fee. As a result, the price of Chinese LFP batteries has always been considerably lower than non-Chinese LFP batteries. However, the patents’ restrictions over LFP will start to expire in 2022. Simultaneously, the limitation of LFP exports on Chinese producers will be largely removed, along with the licensing fee for non-Chinese LFP cell producers. The removal of this IP barrier could become the largest opportunity for LFP-based Li-ion batteries to rapidly gain market share in the EV market outside China.

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Source: https://roskill.com/news/batteries-...p-rights-esg-simplified-battery-pack-designs/

Geez, gun powder, noodles, cable drilling of deep wells, the 1st Odometer, the 1st Seismometre and so much more came from China because it was invented THERE. The Broad Brush stuff, seriously... Have you not heard that Imitation is the highest form of flattery ?
Now why are Chinese Engineering & Medical students everywhere, spending 16 hour days studying hard to qualify with Top Grades & Marks ? A HOBBY ?

Why are Other "domestic" students not even capable of writing a paragraph (that isn't one long run-on sentence) ? GF is a Doctor teaching @ one of the Top 5 Medical Universities in the USA, so I'm getting that from the Ground as it were, you'd be gobsmacked if you saw what these students do, compared to the Chinese, Taiwanese, S. Koreans & Japanese who place an Extreme Value on a proper full education. If they don't make it above 90% you never will get a job in the field, regardless, it is a 180 Degree view of education compared to others. While other students (from You Know Where) argue about their poor marks for not having followed instruction, some even lawyer up over that... Ohhh have to pass little Johny so his feelings aren't hurt, poor lad.... aww shucks. Doesn't get any air in Asia or Europe. THAT is why they are ahead and gaining ground daily.

Maybe go ask the local Charter school why they have teachers who have never stepped foot in Teachers College and are only "qualified" because they have some experience in the field.... and answer How these can continue without any genuinely recognized accreditation ? Where else in the world does something that idiotic exist ? Not Accredited = valueless certificates/diplomas etc.

So the Broad Brush goes to the Bottom of the Outhouse. leave it there, deserves no air.

chrisski said:

I think this were more true ten years ago than it is now.

Today they are becoming a leader in technology through their own work, rather than just reverse engineering others. I don't think they put a probe on Mars by copying our Perseverance. Hard to quantify that statement though. Kind of makes the burden of proof on someone else to prove they did.

If Will was wrong about the Chinese not inventing Lithium Batteries, than I think his overall point about the country being able to develop its own ideas is more valid than most think.

I think he had a good point about a lot of the younger people not wanting to put in the hard work it takes to get technical degrees, which goes hand in hand with other countries passing the US.

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No they did not copy Perseverance because the people involved with that are still under NDA's.
What they most likely did was get info from people who had been part of the 1976 Viking Lander program and got the information they needed from them to copy that technology. They copied it to a tee but ripped away the scientific platform and used the saved weight to carry the rover.

Viking Lander: Skip to 1:20 Mark

Tianwen Lander

This design will only carry them so far, once they get past the 800 Kg weight mark they are going to have to come up with a design either like Opportunity or a sky crane like Perseverance.

And BTW yes, they are still reverse engineering almost everything. Some of my fellow Engineers still tell me that China is demanding that all hardware designs and full software code must be handed over to them for use in their "Domestic Production" of the product. That is almost always required if your company is small to medium sized and wants to use China as a manufacturing hub.

This does not seem to matter to management but I can tell you that it really stings for the engineer when you see one of your designs show up in a knock off product. And that "Domestic use only" promise is a fools promise as very soon your in the same boat like Sol-Ark and the knock off product starts to move out of China and into Africa, South America and eventually into America. Within a few years your competing against your own design in the USA market place.

robby said:

I loved Wills Rant video but if I remember correctly he made a statement that LiFePO4 batteries were created in China and that they are now making their own Technology. I am not calling out Will, I was just surprised when he said that because in 36 years of doing EE design work I have seen almost ZERO items that have been created in China. Their technological system does not even seem to rely on invention but almost completely on acquisition of inventions then reverse engineering and adaptation into new products.

LiFePO4 was of course an offshoot of John Goodenough's Lithium Ion design but the Iron Phosphate branch was created by University Of Texas-Austin plus MIT seems to also have some involvement along with the University of Montreal and CNRS.

Numerous Lawsuits over who controls the Patents have arisen over the last 10 years and at the end of the day it seems like the University of Texas-Austin has been squeezed out of the picture along with any claims Mr. Goodenough might have had.

The Patent owner now seems to be LiFePO4+C Inc. They seem to be a very aggressive company that is making sure they get paid for the use of LiFePO4 technology.

Here is a Link to their website: https://www.lifepo4ag.com/

I just wanted to clarify this for myself and felt a need to share what I found with other forum members.

Thanks for reading

Click to expand...

China does not recognize patents which is why it was foolish for companies to build plants there. The history you gave is nice, but not relevant to how china operates.

As robby noted, there are some significant things that they DID copy. This happens multiple ways. They can partner with a foreign firm, which if what I've read is accurate, requires that they transfer technology to the partner in China. They can hack commercial and government systems to get data, design documents, etc. They can import and reverse-engineer products.

They also produce their own new technologies and manufacturing processes. There are a number of common chips for consumer and DIY builders that don't have equivalents from non-Chinese companies, for example. And what US company has the manufacturing processes to produce the prismatic LiFePO4 batteries that quite a few of us have or want to purchase?

robby said:

I loved Wills Rant video but if I remember correctly he made a statement that LiFePO4 batteries were created in China and that they are now making their own Technology. I am not calling out Will, I was just surprised when he said that because in 36 years of doing EE design work I have seen almost ZERO items that have been created in China. Their technological system does not even seem to rely on invention but almost completely on acquisition of inventions then reverse engineering and adaptation into new products.

LiFePO4 was of course an offshoot of John Goodenough's Lithium Ion design but the Iron Phosphate branch was created by University Of Texas-Austin plus MIT seems to also have some involvement along with the University of Montreal and CNRS.

Numerous Lawsuits over who controls the Patents have arisen over the last 10 years and at the end of the day it seems like the University of Texas-Austin has been squeezed out of the picture along with any claims Mr. Goodenough might have had.

The Patent owner now seems to be LiFePO4+C Inc. They seem to be a very aggressive company that is making sure they get paid for the use of LiFePO4 technology.

Here is a Link to their website: https://www.lifepo4ag.com/

I just wanted to clarify this for myself and felt a need to share what I found with other forum members.

Thanks for reading

Click to expand...

I never said china invented LiFePO4. Ever. That would be idiotic. I said that they are improving the chemistry, and developing better manufacturing methods that have significantly increased the specific energy. And furthermore, they manufacture nearly all the lifepo4 cells these days.

I would not be making these videos if I was not aware that LiFePO4 was invented here in the states. I have a video I filmed months ago where I go in depth on the development of lithium ion batteries, and I included this exact point, but I never posted it because I knew people would not care. It was a pretty boring video.

Anyway, I knew that we invented LiFePO4 here in the states before I touched an iron phosphate cell. I think you misunderstood my point stating that china is inventing new manufacturing methods.

When it comes to China, I rate the Chinese people a LOT higher than the CCP that is responsible for most of what we don't like about China. It's kind of amazing actually that the country hasn't been ruined. China would be much different and more respected if it weren't for their oppressive government.
This is the same for most countries that have authoritarian governments .... some of those are pretending to have elections.

In the United States and most other democratic countries, if things go off the rails, we have ourselves to blame because we elected bad representatives.

I encourage Will to post “boring” videos on a secondary channel if they choose to ? I would find it interesting!?

Will Prowse said:

I never said china invented LiFePO4. Ever. That would be idiotic. I said that they are improving the chemistry, and developing better manufacturing methods that have significantly increased the specific energy. And furthermore, they manufacture nearly all the lifepo4 cells these days.

I would not be making these videos if I was not aware that LiFePO4 was invented here in the states. I have a video I filmed months ago where I go in depth on the development of lithium ion batteries, and I included this exact point, but I never posted it because I knew people would not care. It was a pretty boring video.

Anyway, I knew that we invented LiFePO4 here in the states before I touched an iron phosphate cell. I think you misunderstood my point stating that china is inventing new manufacturing methods.

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Sorry, I could have sworn that you said they developed the chemistry. I may have been mistaken or the wording might have given me the wrong impression. Unfortunately there is no way to verify anything since the video seems to be gone.

Bob B said:

When it comes to China, I rate the Chinese people a LOT higher than the CCP that is responsible for most of what we don't like about China. It's kind of amazing actually that the country hasn't been ruined. China would be much different and more respected if it weren't for their oppressive government.
This is the same for most countries that have authoritarian governments .... some of those are pretending to have elections.

In the United States and most other democratic countries, if things go off the rails, we have ourselves to blame because we elected bad representatives.

Click to expand...

Have you ever been to China? I am not sure what you mean by "Ruined", are you talking about the peoples attitudes or are you talking about the environment?

curiouscarbon said:

I encourage Will to post “boring” videos on a secondary channel if they choose to ? I would find it interesting!?

Click to expand...

I agree! I can see where he doesn't want to taint his main channel or his "brand" with it (YTers are a fickle bunch). But a secondary semi-secret channel sounds like the ticket. Perhaps, Scraps from the Solar Cutting Room Floor by Professor Drone?

Steve_S said:

Geez, gun powder, noodles, cable drilling of deep wells, the 1st Odometer, the 1st Seismometre and so much more came from China because it was invented THERE. The Broad Brush stuff, seriously... Have you not heard that Imitation is the highest form of flattery ?
Now why are Chinese Engineering & Medical students everywhere, spending 16 hour days studying hard to qualify with Top Grades & Marks ? A HOBBY ?

Why are Other "domestic" students not even capable of writing a paragraph (that isn't one long run-on sentence) ? GF is a Doctor teaching @ one of the Top 5 Medical Universities in the USA, so I'm getting that from the Ground as it were, you'd be gobsmacked if you saw what these students do, compared to the Chinese, Taiwanese, S. Koreans & Japanese who place an Extreme Value on a proper full education. If they don't make it above 90% you never will get a job in the field, regardless, it is a 180 Degree view of education compared to others. While other students (from You Know Where) argue about their poor marks for not having followed instruction, some even lawyer up over that... Ohhh have to pass little Johny so his feelings aren't hurt, poor lad.... aww shucks. Doesn't get any air in Asia or Europe. THAT is why they are ahead and gaining ground daily.

Maybe go ask the local Charter school why they have teachers who have never stepped foot in Teachers College and are only "qualified" because they have some experience in the field.... and answer How these can continue without any genuinely recognized accreditation ? Where else in the world does something that idiotic exist ? Not Accredited = valueless certificates/diplomas etc.

So the Broad Brush goes to the Bottom of the Outhouse. leave it there, deserves no air.

Click to expand...

Yes. They have high native intelligence. They work collectively. They work very hard. They are new to capitalism and young capitalism booms. I would not bet against them. Not saying I like it but I would not bet against them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncan...rtest-countries-in-the-world/?sh=1948092a163f

Dhasper said:

Yes. They have high native intelligence. They work collectively. They work very hard. They are new to capitalism and young capitalism booms. I would not bet against them. Not saying I like it but I would not bet against them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncan...rtest-countries-in-the-world/?sh=1948092a163f

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People who have never worked in China have a very idolized idea of what it is like in China. Having spent about 3 months in Beijing and some time in Shenzhen I can only say to you that it is not like anything you would expect and most likely you would be kissing the ground on the Tarmac when you arrived back to the USA. The best descriptions of some of the things i encountered is the same stuff I have seen in older videos done by a guy named SerpentZA on YouTube. Not his newer stuff done during the last 18 months but his older stuff before he got confrontational and bitter against China.

I will say that the engineers I worked with were eager to learn but I did not find any of them to be particularly bright, but that could just have been based on the limited amount of them I worked with.
Their eagerness to learn did not translate into them ever trying to think outside the box. If something works, they are happy, they typically don't look at ways to improve on the design unless they are told to. Ehhh kind of hard to explain it in a post but it kind of felt like I was working with Robots, I feed them a program and they carry it out! There is no back and forth on the subject or an inquiring mind as to why this thing is working this way and could it possibly work another way or be improved.

I won't even get into the people you meet on the street or the other issues like crime which the CCP would like you to believe is non existent or the fact that the water from the tap is undrinkable and not even usable for brushing your teeth or that the air quality is unbelievably bad, like three packs of cigarettes a day bad.

Serpentza has some good stuff. His most recent stuff has changed, but I enjoy his insight with south Africa. Ive been following him for ages.

Valid points about Chinese workers, from what I have read. I have spent time in countries around china, but I always avoided china. It is useful to hear your perspective. What you describe is similar to my experience working with these companies.

Will Prowse said:

Serpentza has some good stuff. His most recent stuff has changed, but I enjoy his insight with south Africa. Ive been following him for ages.

Valid points about Chinese workers, from what I have read. I have spent time in countries around china, but I always avoided china. It is useful to hear your perspective. What you describe is similar to my experience working with these companies.

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Thanks. It's certainly not a place I want to ever go back to, so I can see why you avoid it.
Some people believe it's just the CCP, but the CCP is really just feeding off of the resentment that already exists in the country against Europeans, Westerners etc. The majority of the people in China really do not like us and the weird part is that they really don't even trust each other. It's really an eye opener when you travel with a coworker that is fluent in the language. You find out all the unpleasant stuff they are saying about you, most of it is just pure race related and said in a very casual nature. My other disturbing observation is that the people are generally very greedy, they will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Now you might expect this from someone who is starving, but it's just a cultural thing right across the board. We Joked at work that it was like living in Ferenginar.


SerpentZA has some very cool videos, I started watching them a few years after I went there and came back.
I caught my first video just by chance. It was Amazing watching his videos and then being able to show my Wife the video and say to her, "See it's just like I told you".
His video on crime was something I experienced first hand. You do not want to leave something valuable out in the open for a second or it's gone! The guys from the company that have spent years over there tell me that you can have a crime happening in broad daylight and people just walk around the victim and do nothing. I never witnessed this myself but SerpentZA seemed to have caught a lot of that happening.

Anyway if anyone wants to really understand China I can confirm that SerpentZA videos give you a pretty good idea of the good and the bad in China.

IIRC, the researcher who came up with LFP and NICAD is now working on sodium. This would be so cool because the biggest problem with desal plants is the sodium dumped back into the seawater is an environmental disaster.

robby said:

the Iron Phosphate branch was created by University Of Texas-Austin plus MIT seems to also have some involvement along with the University of Montreal and CNRS.

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I go with Will !
Show me a unit of the above science facilities that doesn't have a Chinese representative!

stuart_ said:

IIRC, the researcher who came up with LFP and NICAD is now working on sodium. This would be so cool because the biggest problem with desal plants is the sodium dumped back into the seawater is an environmental disaster.

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Agree. Desalinization is a band aid fix that is not practical or safe in the long term. The Middle East has no choice but America should start working on pipelines to get water from the regions that are flooding to the ones that are drying out. They throw away Billions on less important project and IMHO the desertification of the Western third of the country is going to be one of the biggest challenges we face over the next decade. Just imagine 100 million people trying to move to the Mid and Eastern states, it will cause housing shortages, infrastructure problems and displace poor people with rich ones that can buy up the houses and land.

Re batteries, I guess we are all also waiting to see if Panasonic will introduce those solid state batteries. It's a game changer if they really work.