Why climate change is real

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
It's a bit of a stretch to claim that cancer, accidents and disorders are all the result of personal choice, no?

I dont think it is.

People like to blame genetics for disease. Being predisposed to a disease does not mean that you will get it. People like to believe it is a lottery. To a large extend I believe it is not. It means that if you dont pay attention to your diet, life style and environment, you may pull the lever on the gene that gives you a cancer. People dont like having the fact that they caused their disease laid at their feet but for the vast majority it is IMO a fact.

Accidents, to a large extent happen during activities that are not absolutely mandatory. People are making a choice to put themselves in the position. For some perspective consider this. Everyone considers driving a right. You go out for a sunday drive to get ice cream and your family dies. That is your fault, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the accident. You didnt need ice cream or to drive. You made the choice to engage in a frivolous activity where the penalty for failure (a car crash) carries the potential for significant loss.

If you boil almost everything down you will find that the choices you make are almost always a significant contributing factor to the situation you find yourself in, good or bad.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

I don't know even where to begin to write down my disagreement with that...

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
I don't know even where to begin to write down my disagreement with that...

Thats fine. Your welcome to your opinion. Actual personal responsibility is a hard pill to swallow, especially when the idea of everyone being a victim is so easy and is promoted in todays pathetic society. I know when I realized how my life style had screwed my life up it was hard to accept. Once you do and you realize how much power you actually have if you just exercise a little self control, you end up basically unstopable. Have a read of Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. Check out Bruce liption Joe dispenza and Gregg Braden for a little perspective on disease

MurphyGuy · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
I dont think it is.

People like to blame genetics for disease. Being predisposed to a disease does not mean that you will get it. People like to believe it is a lottery. To a large extend I believe it is not. It means that if you dont pay attention to your diet, life style and environment, you may pull the lever on the gene that gives you a cancer. People dont like having the fact that they caused their disease laid at their feet but for the vast majority it is IMO a fact.

Accidents, to a large extent happen during activities that are not absolutely mandatory. People are making a choice to put themselves in the position. For some perspective consider this. Everyone considers driving a right. You go out for a sunday drive to get ice cream and your family dies. That is your fault, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the accident. You didnt need ice cream or to drive. You made the choice to engage in a frivolous activity where the penalty for failure (a car crash) carries the potential for significant loss.

If you boil almost everything down you will find that the choices you make are almost always a significant contributing factor to the situation you find yourself in, good or bad.

Cosmic rays cause cancer.. that's not a choice..

My point wasn't that we should hold people responsible for their personal choices in such a stringent way.. my point was that when they make these personal choices that fly in the face of science, and then get on the internet and try to convince others to make the same choice, then we should hold them responsible.

There's a difference between casual ignorance and militant conduct.

When you fail to vaccinate for lack of comprehension, that's casual ignorance.. when you spread anti-vax propaganda, conspiracy, etc, that's militant conduct. And when such conduct bites you in the rear, I say too bad.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
Actual personal responsibility is a hard pill to swallow, especially when the idea of everyone being a victim is so easy and is promoted in todays pathetic society.

Personal responsibility (and trust) is actually pretty much ingrained in Finnish society. No one would claim that a child getting bone cancer is somehow to blame on the child or parents. Same goes for so many other diseases...

MurphyGuy · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
Personal responsibility (and trust) is actually pretty much ingrained in Finish society. No one would claim that a child getting bone cancer is somehow to blame on the child or parents. Same goes for so many other diseases...

Like most other things in life, its not so clear cut.

My wife's friend shoves sugar down her kids throats ate a rate that alarms the hell out of me.. The kid is 9 years old and is almost as wide as he is tall.
I'm watching the kid eat lunch and his mother gave him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, cookies and Mountain Dew.. That kid is going to pay for his mother's ignorance for the rest of his life.. and its going to cost him dearly.

Obesity has been tied to higher cancer rates.

What about parents smoking tobacco inside the home?

There's a lot we don't hold people accountable for.. and I understand personal choice and freedom.. But the two sticking points are when irresponsible parents harm their own children, and militant propaganda pushers creating fake news and information.

Freedom, as we think of it in the USA, was never meant to allow others to spread harm..

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
Personal responsibility (and trust) is actually pretty much ingrained in Finnish society. No one would claim that a child getting bone cancer is somehow to blame on the child or parents. Same goes for so many other diseases...

This is rather disingenuous. This is the same style of argument the pro choice crowd uses when arguing with the pro life crowd. Abortion should be available because of rape victims. Its a limit case. Even if I was a fairly stringent pro lifer Id be ok with granting abortion to rape victims if they want it.

MurphyGuy said:
Cosmic rays cause cancer.. that's not a choice..

My point wasn't that we should hold people responsible for their personal choices in such a stringent way.. my point was that when they make these personal choices that fly in the face of science, and then get on the internet and try to convince others to make the same choice, then we should hold them responsible.

There's a difference between casual ignorance and militant conduct.

When you fail to vaccinate for lack of comprehension, that's casual ignorance.. when you spread anti-vax propaganda, conspiracy, etc, that's militant conduct. And when such conduct bites you in the rear, I say too bad.

I know it wasnt your point, but the fact is that these people are making choices that fly in the face of science. The people that are on the internet trying to convince them them to make the same choice are the marketers of garbage food and lifestyles.

So, when you spread anti-vax propaganda its bad but its good when you mandate that everyone line up and accept what you want its good? Im not normally a split the difference type of person but the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Cosmic rays cause cancer, in weak compromised people that live crappy lives and eat garbage food.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

MurphyGuy said:
Obesity has been tied to higher cancer rates.

What about parents smoking tobacco inside the home?

There's a lot we don't hold people accountable for

But we do hold people accountable for that over here. Legislation is actively working to ban smoking at home in the presence of children. Smoking in a car with children present is already forbidden. Children here get food in school (at no cost) so everyone gets a proper balanced meal.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
Cosmic rays cause cancer, in weak compromised people that live crappy lives and eat garbage food.

That's a really narrow view that doesn't align with reality since that's not how radiation works. Disclaimer: I build radiation detection sensors and have a deep understanding of how radiation works. TLDR; it's purely random and you can just have bad luck.

MurphyGuy · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
This is rather disingenuous. This is the same style of argument the pro choice crowd uses when arguing with the pro life crowd. Abortion should be available because of rape victims. Its a limit case. Even if I was a fairly stringent pro lifer Id be ok with granting abortion to rape victims if they want it.

I know it wasnt your point, but the fact is that these people are making choices that fly in the face of science. The people that are on the internet trying to convince them them to make the same choice are the marketers of garbage food and lifestyles.

So, when you spread anti-vax propaganda its bad but its good when you mandate that everyone line up and accept what you want its good? Im not normally a split the difference type of person but the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Cosmic rays cause cancer, in weak compromised people that live crappy lives and eat garbage food.

No, I didn't say or imply that either..
I'm not a left or right kind of person and tend to find the best solutions are somewhere in the middle accompanied by science, freedom, and responsibility.

Science and freedom are often at odds with each other, that's where compromise comes in.

MurphyGuy · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
But we do hold people accountable for that over here. Legislation is actively working to ban smoking at home in the presence of children. Smoking in a car with children present is already forbidden. Children here get food in school (at no cost) so everyone gets a proper balanced meal.

No so here in the USA.. What some of these parents do to their children should be criminalized....

sunshine_eggo · Oct 30, 2021

MurphyGuy said:
Like most other things in life, its not so clear cut.

My wife's friend shoves sugar down her kids throats ate a rate that alarms the hell out of me.. The kid is 9 years old and is almost as wide as he is tall.
I'm watching the kid eat lunch and his mother gave him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, cookies and Mountain Dew.. That kid is going to pay for his mother's ignorance for the rest of his life.. and its going to cost him dearly.

Obesity has been tied to higher cancer rates.

True. But a 2012 study indicates obesity accounted for 3.6% of global cancer cases (can be dramatically higher for certain cancer types).

Global burden of cancer attributable to high body-mass index in 2012: a population-based study - PubMed

World Cancer Research Fund International, European Commission (Marie Curie Intra-European Fellowship), Australian National Health and Medical Research Council, and US National Institutes of Health.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

MurphyGuy said:
What about parents smoking tobacco inside the home?

Stupid parents, but people get lung cancer having never smoked.

MurphyGuy said:
There's a lot we don't hold people accountable for.. and I understand personal choice and freedom..

Agreed. I support personal choice, but I insist on personal accountability. I support insurance companies denying medical coverage for refusal to vaccinate OR charging higher rates (like they do if you smoke). I also support the liability for those choices, e.g., refuse a vaccine, and you get an immunocompromised (who can't get vaccinated) person sick, you are responsible for their medical bills.

MurphyGuy said:
But the two sticking points are when irresponsible parents harm their own children, and militant propaganda pushers creating fake news and information.

Sounds like you're possibly self-identifying if you believe that obesity is the primary driving force behind cancer. 3.6% isn't a big number.

MurphyGuy said:
Freedom, as we think of it in the USA, was never meant to allow others to spread harm..

Agreed. Too many don't realize this.

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
That's a really narrow view that doesn't align with reality since that's not how radiation works. Disclaimer: I build radiation detection sensors and have a deep understanding of how radiation works. TLDR; it's purely random and you can just have bad luck.

You build radiation detection sensors cosmic radiation? It is not a narrow view. Cosmic radiation has been around since the beginning, we evolved with it. Its not an issue for healthy people.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
You build radiation detection sensors cosmic radiation?

Among others, yes. It's not that hard to build a cosmic ray detector.

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

MurphyGuy said:
No, I didn't say or imply that either..
I'm not a left or right kind of person and tend to find the best solutions are somewhere in the middle accompanied by science, freedom, and responsibility.

I am aware that you didnt say it that but you are saying that you believe everyone should not share their opinions because you dont agree with them and if they do, they can suffer.

"The science" has turned into a catch phrase that has become a dog whistle. At this point you really cant trust anything anyone is saying and if you are not educated and have a bit of a base to understand biology, you are kind of screwed. Both the anti-vax crowd and the mandate people are claiming "science".

As long as you are for freedom, regardless of how intelligent or informed a person is/chooses to be, and they are solely responsible for the out come we are on the same page.

upnorthandpersonal said:
Among others, yes. It's not that hard to build a cosmic ray detector.

And the rest of the quote?

Q-Dog · Oct 30, 2021

sunshine_eggo said:
True. But a 2012 study indicates obesity accounted for 3.6% of global cancer cases (can be dramatically higher for certain cancer types).

Global burden of cancer attributable to high body-mass index in 2012: a population-based study - PubMed

World Cancer Research Fund International, European Commission (Marie Curie Intra-European Fellowship), Australian National Health and Medical Research Council, and US National Institutes of Health.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Stupid parents, but people get lung cancer having never smoked.

Agreed. I support personal choice, but I insist on personal accountability. I support insurance companies denying medical coverage for refusal to vaccinate OR charging higher rates (like they do if you smoke). I also support the liability for those choices, e.g., refuse a vaccine, and you get an immunocompromised (who can't get vaccinated) person sick, you are responsible for their medical bills.

Sounds like you're possibly self-identifying if you believe that obesity is the primary driving force behind cancer. 3.6% isn't a big number.

Agreed. Too many don't realize this.

I'm not going to go look up a bunch of numbers that noone is going to read anyway, but using round figures, IF the US obesity rate for adults is around 40% (it is a little higher), and the US adult population is about 250,000,000 (again, its a bit higher), how many US adults will get cancer due to obesity that can be tied to the 3.6% rate you cite?

In round numbers we are talking about 3.6 million people just in the US that can expect to get cancer due to being obese. That sounds like a lot of people to me.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

noenegdod said:
And the rest of the quote?

I really didn't want to go into it - your quote "Cosmic rays cause cancer, in weak compromised people that live crappy lives and eat garbage food." was the main issue that triggered me to reply. As they say, correlation is not causation. I know plenty of people that died from cancer that lived healthy lives and made all the right choices. Stating things that it's all one's own doing by making wrong choices - and that it's the only factor - is just completely in contrast to what I know and experience in life.

Bob B · Oct 30, 2021

A growing % of people just don't trust what we are being spoon fed by those who consider themselves the "overlords."

There is no disputing that the "climate science" has been wrong with every prediction made up to now.
It has been discussed on the Covid thread how big a problem it is that we have simply not been told the truth about so many things Covid.

The children's book about the child who called wolf so many times that people ignored it when it was true .... is the best way to describe it that I can think of.
Those in power know they can gain more power when there is a crisis ... and they take advantage of it over and over again.

Sorry, but there is a large accumulation of resistance to crisis language for good reason.

I do think we need to be as environmentally responsible as we possible can, but refuse to be jerked around by those crying wolf over and over again.

I'm also not saying that there is no science that shows human influenced climate change exists. I'm just trying to explain that those tired who are tired of all the crisis talk have good reason to be tired of it.

upnorthandpersonal · Oct 30, 2021

Bob B said:
There is no disputing that the "climate science" has been wrong with every prediction made up to now.

How climate models got so accurate they earned a Nobel Prize

Climate predictions were treated with heavy skepticism just 30 years ago, but they've become our main window into how global warming works.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Study Confirms Climate Models are Getting Future Warming Projections Right – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet

A new evaluation of global climate models used to project Earth's future global average surface temperature finds that most have been quite accurate.

climate.nasa.gov

40 years ago, scientists predicted climate change. And hey, they were right

Scientists introduced credible climate change to the world in 1979, but it’s taken decades for their message to sink in.

theconversation.com

A 50-Year-Old Global Warming Forecast That Still Holds Up - Eos

In 1972, Mikhail Ivanovich Budyko used a simple methodology to make climate predictions that remain surprisingly accurate today and that could serve as a new “business-as-usual” scenario.

eos.org

Private Site

iowaenvironmentalfocus.org

noenegdod · Oct 30, 2021

upnorthandpersonal said:
I really didn't want to go into it - your quote "Cosmic rays cause cancer, in weak compromised people that live crappy lives and eat garbage food." was the main issue that triggered me to reply. As they say, correlation is not causation. I know plenty of people that died from cancer that lived healthy lives and made all the right choices. Stating things that it's all one's own doing by making wrong choices - and that it's the only factor - is just completely in contrast to what I know and experience in life.

They more than likely, lived in a manner that has been marketed as healthy. Huge difference. People have been trying to call BS on the food pyramid, heart healthy hypothesis, low fat garbage that was popularized in the 70s, since the 70s. it wasnt until the internet gave them access to a platform that was not censored and bias and flew in the face of "the science", that people were able to break out of the narrative and start experimenting with some confidence with their own diets and changing their lives.

My personal experience is why I dont trust those that push "the science" too hard and get mad and loud when you ask to many questions.

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