Why don't gas stations have backup generators?
- Thread starter John Frum
- Start date
Diysolar123
Solar Addict
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2021
- Messages
- 675
putting in a backup power system in a commercial building is very expensive...
The number of "regulations and rules" that also apply is, well, quite impressive..sigh...
The number of "regulations and rules" that also apply is, well, quite impressive..sigh...
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,496
Germany's army issued jerry cans and siphons, so they could get fuel as they advanced through other countries.
Maybe emergency vehicles should have pumps to suction gas out of the underground tanks at stations during emergencies.
I wonder what the maximum lift and self-priming height is for low-pressure lift pumps in vehicles which have those?
A couple valves and switches could enable using that. Otherwise, a 12V (explosion proof!) pump on the end of a hose.
All assumes fill hole gives access to bottom of tank, isn't baffled.
Having a generator input to station's pumps would be an alternative, bring a portable generator for emergency use. That's about $100 to $200 of hardware. Many emergency vehicles put out AC.
Maybe emergency vehicles should have pumps to suction gas out of the underground tanks at stations during emergencies.
I wonder what the maximum lift and self-priming height is for low-pressure lift pumps in vehicles which have those?
A couple valves and switches could enable using that. Otherwise, a 12V (explosion proof!) pump on the end of a hose.
All assumes fill hole gives access to bottom of tank, isn't baffled.
Having a generator input to station's pumps would be an alternative, bring a portable generator for emergency use. That's about $100 to $200 of hardware. Many emergency vehicles put out AC.
Diysolar123
Solar Addict
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2021
- Messages
- 675
it is not technically hard at all, that is not the issue.
At least in the US it about the massive regulatory costs to do such a thing, it just makes zero business sense.
I simple $500 generator could easily run the pumps at a service station, the cost to install such a thing could easily run in the $30k-$100k range!!
There would also be continuing "inspection and licensing" costs annually.
You would not sell enough "off grid available" fuel in the lifetime of the station to recoup the cost.
At least in the US it about the massive regulatory costs to do such a thing, it just makes zero business sense.
I simple $500 generator could easily run the pumps at a service station, the cost to install such a thing could easily run in the $30k-$100k range!!
There would also be continuing "inspection and licensing" costs annually.
You would not sell enough "off grid available" fuel in the lifetime of the station to recoup the cost.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,496
Hmm, how about hybrid PV system connected to electrical panel of gas station? Could pay for itself in electricity savings. Small battery to minimize extra cost of it, but pump gas while the sun shines. Watch charge/discharge rate to decide how many pumps can be opened.
robby
Photon Vampire
- Joined
- May 1, 2021
- Messages
- 4,116
They use to have a way of manually pumping the Gas in the 1980s. They pulled off the lower panel on the pump and there was a spot for a crank handle to go in. I got a lot of Gas that way after a hurricane in the mid 1980s knocked out power for months. They probably ditched them on modern pumps or have new rules and regs that prevent them from using it today. Florida does have laws that require certain Gas stations to have generators.
Here in the south central PA area, a popular convenience store has external generator hookups on all their stores. I’m not sure if they rely on rentals or have a number of portable generators stored at corporate; but I’ve seen them rolled out and ready to go when severe weather is forecast
I carry a small hand syphon pump and tube in my trunk. The way it's designed, it should have almost infinite (figuratively) lift, as long as I keep my thumb over the hole. Being able to pull gas out of a another (or underground) fuel tank may come in handy one day.
There is some law here in Florida about generators and gas stations, due to the hurricanes, I think.
However, I have no faith in the generators @ these places working for very long, or being maintained, due to the costs.
So plan “B” for us is to keep some Diesel fuel on site for the generator and Diesel powered vehicles.
Diesel lasts just about forever if periodic chemical treatments are applied.
However, the new solar we installed this year puts the genset into “rarely used”, category which is a good thing!
However, I have no faith in the generators @ these places working for very long, or being maintained, due to the costs.
So plan “B” for us is to keep some Diesel fuel on site for the generator and Diesel powered vehicles.
Diesel lasts just about forever if periodic chemical treatments are applied.
However, the new solar we installed this year puts the genset into “rarely used”, category which is a good thing!
Rocksnsalt
Solar Enthusiast
Some gas stations definitely have back up generator systems.
Their motivation to have said systems probably depends on how often they experience power outages, duration, and how much it costs them in spoilage/lost revenue. As well as available space and permit/ordinance compliance etc.
And don’t forget, backup gen systems require regular maintenance and likely some running to maintain fresh and seasonal blend fuel. Same as I do with my backup dual fuel gen. Gasp. ?
Their motivation to have said systems probably depends on how often they experience power outages, duration, and how much it costs them in spoilage/lost revenue. As well as available space and permit/ordinance compliance etc.
And don’t forget, backup gen systems require regular maintenance and likely some running to maintain fresh and seasonal blend fuel. Same as I do with my backup dual fuel gen. Gasp. ?
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Don't know about the US but here in Australia service stations don't make much money from pumping fuel. Their profits comes from selling food, drink and other paraphernalia mostly. Many are owned by the large supermarket chains.
I recall as a boy one town we visited on a holiday trip was experiencing a long grid outage (days). We needed petrol. The local fuel station guy had parked his car near the bowser, took a rear wheel off his car and replaced it with a wheel with no tyre, then ran a makeshift belt from the car wheel to the bowser pump drive. He was able to pump fuel for customers that way. Old school analogue bowser flow meter so that worked fine for calculating how much was being pumped.
With modern electronically controlled pumps and digital metering I doubt you could MacGyver it this way any more.
Rocksnsalt
Solar Enthusiast
Yes, pretty much same in US, gas is the draw to get people in the store to buy their cancer sticks, soda, chips, candy and other poisons.
Re the MacGyver set up, awesome. Making it happen.
Some here in the US might call that redneck engineering.
But hey it works, and you do what you can when conditions warrant!
Re the MacGyver set up, awesome. Making it happen.
Some here in the US might call that redneck engineering.
But hey it works, and you do what you can when conditions warrant!
I worked at Shell when I was a teenager. The owner said that he made something like 2¢ per gallon on fuel sales. The fuel was just a way to get people in the store to buy drinks, snacks, weed, and questionable stimulants.
After seeing the amount of effort he put into that gas station, and the very small amount of profit he made on it, I can confidently say I will never consider going into the gas station business.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
In time if they are unable to transition to be nice places to stop while your EV recharges, they will go the way of the video rental store.
That said, grid outages for EV charging stations would suck.
I like the idea of a little lounge area like they have in some truck-stops. Grab a cup of coffee, watch some TV for 20 or so mins, maybe even take a shower ?. I would even offer a monthly charging and snack plan. Offer a number of charges and a free coffee or snack when you come in for a monthly fee.
That's my biggest hang-up on buying an electric vehicle. I don't have faith that the grid will work for an indefinite period of time, and I don't have the sun needed to charge a large EV at home. I'll always keep at least one gas vehicle, but I would definitely consider getting a much smaller (think Chinese style) EV. I could charge a 5-10kw pack on a mini 2 seater with my limited sun, but jucing up a Tesla or other large frame EV pack isn't possible for me.
Rocksnsalt
Solar Enthusiast
Until EV’s have a range of over 400 miles and from 10%to 90% charge time down to 15-20 minutes an EV is not in my future, except maybe an electric bike, motorcycle, or golf cart type vehicle. It’ll happen, just not sure when.
A selectable Hybrid (electric to gas/diesel) makes more sense for my life right now. As far as I know this doesn’t exist yet.
I’ve seen numerous Teslas on the way to or from Utah sitting at charge stations off the 15 in what’s pretty much a nice gas station in the middle of nowhere for who knows how long, sitting in the blazing summer heat. Having to of course run ac in those conditions is surely prolonging charge time as well. Not for me.
A selectable Hybrid (electric to gas/diesel) makes more sense for my life right now. As far as I know this doesn’t exist yet.
I’ve seen numerous Teslas on the way to or from Utah sitting at charge stations off the 15 in what’s pretty much a nice gas station in the middle of nowhere for who knows how long, sitting in the blazing summer heat. Having to of course run ac in those conditions is surely prolonging charge time as well. Not for me.
Samsonite801
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2020
- Messages
- 2,988
Hey that picture looks just like a gas station I went to in the middle of Mexico! It was just a very small town, they called the town a rancho... I asked some guy on the street if he knew where a gas station was and he told me where to find the place. The guy hand-pumped me 4 gallons into a 5 gallon open bucket, gave me a funnel for my car, and I poured it in, and did that twice, and paid him the money
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,496
Chevy Volt (RIP), Honda Clarity, several others.
Are they not what you mean?
I would rather they used a fuel that doesn't go bad.
