diy solar

diy solar

Will please answer this question regarding your recent video...

S

SolarPrep

Solar Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
229
Will: Watched your new video on the MPP LVX. Nice video, interesting unit. I have a question and comment regarding your comments after the video. Read through most of the replies, but didn't see an answer.

You state: "Update: this system will never pass an inspection and never needs to. It is Offgrid and there is not a single permit required for connecting a battery to an inverter, and using a couple of panels laying on the ground. People are trying to reference NEC?? Why? This inverter isn't even listed. Sure it's compliant and certified, but it would still fail inspection. And that's fine. I'm not connected to grid (besides back up battery charger which isn't grid tie. It's a battery charger). And I only care about safety and that's it."

1. Are you saying your are not connected to the grid at all? I assume the answer is "no", and that you have a grid connection.
2. You state that people are referencing the NEC...and you ask "why". My answer is that in locations such as mine, where they adopted the new 2020 NEC, they are enforcing the code in a manner that makes your statement incorrect. Here, they now state that if you wire a system and deliver power over 24v into a building, it must meet all aspects of the code. And the new code makes it very difficult to not use all UL approved devices. They are going as far as to state actually listed, not just compliant. I have a Victron inverter I bought, and planned to use it here. Now, I simply cannot get it permitted. They don't care if your are set up to feed back to the grid or not...it doesn't matter. Even the idea of having a trailer out back as a portable or temporary power source has been mostly banned too. If the power is directed into your house, it all has to meet code. It also doesn't matter if you have no grid conenction at all. If you live in our area where NEC 2020 applies, everything has to be "listed".
3. Are you saying that Nevada doesn't have those rules?
4. I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to clarify that question for the huge number of people who could misinterpret this, or buy equipment now that they won't be able to install LEGALLY.

In my opinion, those code changes are the result of a lot of lobbying by companies who have a stated interest in selling their very expensive battery systems to you. Units like the one you show in that video will not meet the regulations in places where many of us live. I have a huge investment in equipment waiting to be installed, and this is a major problem that has just been dumped on many of us with no notice.

Our local utility has been pretty solar friendly for the most part. With these new regulations, many people will be faced with being limited to purchasing equipment they don't want to own, or just ignoring the regulations. None of the MPP equipment could be used in our case, and it doesn't look like any of the Growatt could be either. "Compliant" doesn't matter in the interpretation of this new code. The argument has been made that it is up to your AHJ to approve, or disapprove your set-up. I agree. But what happens if you suffer a catastrophic lost, and then have to battle an insurance company?

I wish this was easier to qualify, but it isn't.
 
There is one Universal Fact which everyone should be aware of.
Due Diligence requires that "you" observe the Codes & Regulations as applicable to your part of the World.
Also there are the inevitable potential issues with Insurance Company requirements as well. They can be a PITA in their own right.

Marketing terms like Compliant or Compatible versus actual "Certified & Listed" (Meaning legitimate UL/ULC, CSA, ETL, etc tested) is as you state a Very Serious issue. There is a Heap Load of confusion resulting from it.

I would also point out that many products may say Listed / Certified but one of the requirements of such is respectable documentation to go with the product(s) and to clearly list the actual info with that documentation, an example from Samlex here. Note that Victron & others docs & certification data within, which can all be verified as well. Most also include the standard disclaimer that a Licensed/Certified installation should be performed. but that's no surprise really.
1642338063831.png

This is sadly one of those Buyer Beware situations which most Vet's here try to warn folks about & by encouraging them to take their time, Learn, think it through, understand it and then Plan, and bounce that around before buying/doing anything else.

Also in closing, I want to mention that All the equipment Certifications and the testing required is a costly & time consuming process. In a fast evolving sector some companies restrict the number of models being produced for certain markets which go through a Full Certification & Compliance process. Of course the cost of those models will always be higher. This is also where the GREY Market comes into play and the buyer has to be cautious there as well.

A typical example of folks not paying close enough attention, I'm sorry to say, is buying a European Model for North America.
 
Steve: Precisely stated!

It drives me crazy that there is no reliable, easy way to determine exactly what can, or cannot be used. I've talked with the head inspector for our City, the State inspectors, the electrical governing board chairman, etc. The bottom line is that what we have to do now is fill out a "pre-application" form that states what we want to install. All documents and proof must be submitted with it. You have to provide the actual certification showing the applied UL, ETL, etc label. If any of the requested items are not in your submittal, it is denied. And this is all prior to even getting the permit to begin. Then if you get a permit, the installation has to be exactly like what is on that form. If you used a disconnect, fuse, breaker, cable, etc that you cannot prove is "listed or approved", you fail.

With things like this in mind, it makes it especially troublesome to buy ANY equipment in advance. I want to stress that this is NOT our utility doing this...it is the code that has been adopted by our State. The language in that code also covers ESS system, batteries, etc. It clearly states that ALL COMPONENTS must be listed, or approved. They don't mean "compliant". It also closes what they consider a loop hole for people that put a trailer, or RV outside, and put panels on it. About the only thing that might not specifically be covered is if you have a ground mounted system, with no feed into the house, and you want to use it to charge your car. But I'm not even sure if that would be allowed.

I've been very interested in the MPP units, so I contacted Ian at Watts247. He seems like a very knowledgeable guy, and gets back to you quickly. I'd love to do business with him. But, the units on the website that say "UL 1741" are COMPLIANT, according to Ian. Not listed or approved, which means I cannot use any of them.

You cannot trust any advertising copy that states that a unit is certified. If you cannot find the actual listing through a NRTL, it means nothing.
 
The alternative, to buy all Tier-1 Level product.
Everywhere has rules of some sort, even those that say they don't.
Off Grid vs On Grid (feed in) or even just "Connected" no feed in it all varies what is accepted and how, who etc...

pssst... its why I have Midnight SCC's & E-Panels, Samlex Inverter etc..
 
I dont think permits or inspections would be needed to supply power to a permitted generator input connector.
I think a trailer built to supply power would be legal to connect this way.
 
I strongly urge others to jump into this issue, and check it out. Then report back to the forum. I hope I'm wrong. I read a plethora of OSHA, NRTL, NEC, UL, Fire Code, etc regulations, and talked to a lot of code officials. Also, some companies like CED Greentech.

The consensus was what I put in my first and second post today. One thing to keep in mind...there are areas of the country that have not adopted any specific code. There are many on 10 year old, or any year code you can imagine. My point wasn't to say that someone (just for example) in Texas cannot install an MPP, Growatt, etc. I don't know...because I don't pay attention to their codes. What I'm saying is that the new 2020 NEC eliminated a whole bunch of options for a whole lot of people.

Supervstech: The trailer idea will not fly here. I thought about the generator input too, but if you are inverting into 25 or higher volts, the new code states it all has to be listed equipment. So unless you are running DC in your house, and have DC appliances, you would not be able to do that either. It is crazy, because you can certainly permit a generator, and use that current, which is generally less stable than our PV inverters.

Again...anyone who cares...look into this, and let everyone know. Thanks!
 
If you want to get Will's attention .... You have to tag him .... @Will Prowse .... That is still no guarantee he has the time to participate.
 
So how does the local government deal with the so called 'Solar Generator' which is basically an All-in-one pre-built package instead of putting each device together yourself and not connected to the grid except when you want to use utility for charging?
How many of the 'Solar generator' actually has the compliance certificate that you can actually look it up?
OP: So is Solar Generator' allowed to be used in your area?
 
SolarPrep said:
Will: Watched your new video on the MPP LVX. Nice video, interesting unit. I have a question and comment regarding your comments after the video. Read through most of the replies, but didn't see an answer.

You state: "Update: this system will never pass an inspection and never needs to. It is Offgrid and there is not a single permit required for connecting a battery to an inverter, and using a couple of panels laying on the ground. People are trying to reference NEC?? Why? This inverter isn't even listed. Sure it's compliant and certified, but it would still fail inspection. And that's fine. I'm not connected to grid (besides back up battery charger which isn't grid tie. It's a battery charger). And I only care about safety and that's it."

1. Are you saying your are not connected to the grid at all? I assume the answer is "no", and that you have a grid connection.
2. You state that people are referencing the NEC...and you ask "why". My answer is that in locations such as mine, where they adopted the new 2020 NEC, they are enforcing the code in a manner that makes your statement incorrect. Here, they now state that if you wire a system and deliver power over 24v into a building, it must meet all aspects of the code. And the new code makes it very difficult to not use all UL approved devices. They are going as far as to state actually listed, not just compliant. I have a Victron inverter I bought, and planned to use it here. Now, I simply cannot get it permitted. They don't care if your are set up to feed back to the grid or not...it doesn't matter. Even the idea of having a trailer out back as a portable or temporary power source has been mostly banned too. If the power is directed into your house, it all has to meet code. It also doesn't matter if you have no grid conenction at all. If you live in our area where NEC 2020 applies, everything has to be "listed".
3. Are you saying that Nevada doesn't have those rules?
4. I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to clarify that question for the huge number of people who could misinterpret this, or buy equipment now that they won't be able to install LEGALLY.

In my opinion, those code changes are the result of a lot of lobbying by companies who have a stated interest in selling their very expensive battery systems to you. Units like the one you show in that video will not meet the regulations in places where many of us live. I have a huge investment in equipment waiting to be installed, and this is a major problem that has just been dumped on many of us with no notice.

Our local utility has been pretty solar friendly for the most part. With these new regulations, many people will be faced with being limited to purchasing equipment they don't want to own, or just ignoring the regulations. None of the MPP equipment could be used in our case, and it doesn't look like any of the Growatt could be either. "Compliant" doesn't matter in the interpretation of this new code. The argument has been made that it is up to your AHJ to approve, or disapprove your set-up. I agree. But what happens if you suffer a catastrophic lost, and then have to battle an insurance company?

I wish this was easier to qualify, but it isn't.
Click to expand...
What state / local are you in?
 
SolarPrep said:
You state: "Update: this system will never pass an inspection and never needs to. It is Offgrid and there is not a single permit required for connecting a battery to an inverter, and using a couple of panels laying on the ground. People are trying to reference NEC?? Why? This inverter isn't even listed. Sure it's compliant and certified, but it would still fail inspection. And that's fine. I'm not connected to grid (besides back up battery charger which isn't grid tie. It's a battery charger). And I only care about safety and that's it."
Click to expand...
Answering very specifically to this situation I know that Will made it clear in another video that Panels on the ground in Nevada do not fall into any form of regulation. The only question is does an MP LVXX get treated any differently than if he hooked up a Jackery to some panels on the ground and charged his Laptop. It's not grid connected and does not interact with any of his homes electrical wiring. I can see lots of issues if it was connected to his internal wiring but I cannot see a problem if it's just basically a generator powering something on a big extension cord.
 
Ok so let's see, if I have a car battery in my garage, and I attach a battery charger and 12V inverter, what type of certification/listing/NEC compliance are you saying I should require? My current offgrid system is no different. Random batteries laying on the ground and a typical shelf, connected to an offgrid inverter with zero connection to the grid. Can someone please show me what part of the NEC covers this type of system?

If I connect a $100 solar panel to a $200 solar generator to charge my phone, should the inverter circuit be UL1741?

If I have a cell phone plugged into a $20 cellphone charger that uses a small solar cell to operate, do I need it to be inspected?

If you have a UPS device for backup power for your computer, does it need an inspector to come out? Would you consider this an emergency back up power source? If so, why do people not follow NEC for this? They have a whole section on how to connect a back up power system, why would it not apply for these smaller units?

I do not think there is a good definition for offgrid battery back up or solar systems. The number one issue I have found with my local ordinances is that my array has to be under 5ft so that I do not require permits. So I threw them on the ground. There is zero laws stating the difference between 1 solar panel and 10,000W of solar panels lying on the ground.

If I am using the battery charger in my offgrid inverter, you need to use the grounding conductor. Which is stated in every manual. Very important. But running a grounding rod to my offgrid panel? Why? I do not see the utility. I would prefer running it at as a floating system, and I would consider that safer.
 
Something that many of my American viewers fail to realize is the international size of my audience. In many places, the code is not very strict, and you can build as you please (but you should still use UL listed/certified components). Many places in latin america and southeast asia do not seem to have any rules (or they are not enforced). Or they have private electric companies with their own sets of rules.

I anticipate that every grown adult would look up their local laws and regulations, and comply.

I do not use grid tie inverters in my videos, mainly because I prefer off grid floating systems. Less rules, from what I can tell. Dead simple to build, and I can change anything I please without issue.
 
For some strange reason, mounting some LV6548's (which are by definition, offgrid inverters) and connecting some batteries have made people ask if it is NEC compliant, but not a single peep from anyone when we connect a 48V inverter to my golf cart. Or solar shed. Or my RV's.

I think the issue is that people think it is a hybrid inverter. If I were to be back feeding the grid with a hybrid inverter, I would need permits, inspection etc. And UL listed components.
 
SolarPrep said:
Will: Watched your new video on the MPP LVX. Nice video, interesting unit. I have a question and comment regarding your comments after the video. Read through most of the replies, but didn't see an answer.

You state: "Update: this system will never pass an inspection and never needs to. It is Offgrid and there is not a single permit required for connecting a battery to an inverter, and using a couple of panels laying on the ground. People are trying to reference NEC?? Why? This inverter isn't even listed. Sure it's compliant and certified, but it would still fail inspection. And that's fine. I'm not connected to grid (besides back up battery charger which isn't grid tie. It's a battery charger). And I only care about safety and that's it."

1. Are you saying your are not connected to the grid at all? I assume the answer is "no", and that you have a grid connection.
2. You state that people are referencing the NEC...and you ask "why". My answer is that in locations such as mine, where they adopted the new 2020 NEC, they are enforcing the code in a manner that makes your statement incorrect. Here, they now state that if you wire a system and deliver power over 24v into a building, it must meet all aspects of the code. And the new code makes it very difficult to not use all UL approved devices. They are going as far as to state actually listed, not just compliant. I have a Victron inverter I bought, and planned to use it here. Now, I simply cannot get it permitted. They don't care if your are set up to feed back to the grid or not...it doesn't matter. Even the idea of having a trailer out back as a portable or temporary power source has been mostly banned too. If the power is directed into your house, it all has to meet code. It also doesn't matter if you have no grid conenction at all. If you live in our area where NEC 2020 applies, everything has to be "listed".
3. Are you saying that Nevada doesn't have those rules?
4. I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to clarify that question for the huge number of people who could misinterpret this, or buy equipment now that they won't be able to install LEGALLY.

In my opinion, those code changes are the result of a lot of lobbying by companies who have a stated interest in selling their very expensive battery systems to you. Units like the one you show in that video will not meet the regulations in places where many of us live. I have a huge investment in equipment waiting to be installed, and this is a major problem that has just been dumped on many of us with no notice.

Our local utility has been pretty solar friendly for the most part. With these new regulations, many people will be faced with being limited to purchasing equipment they don't want to own, or just ignoring the regulations. None of the MPP equipment could be used in our case, and it doesn't look like any of the Growatt could be either. "Compliant" doesn't matter in the interpretation of this new code. The argument has been made that it is up to your AHJ to approve, or disapprove your set-up. I agree. But what happens if you suffer a catastrophic lost, and then have to battle an insurance company?

I wish this was easier to qualify, but it isn't.
Click to expand...
My statement that you posted is not present on the LVX video. It was posted on the LV6548 video.

1. Not connected to the grid at all, unless I use the battery charger, which I don't. If I were to plug the battery charger in with an offgrid inverter, it has NEC required grounding conductor. If I removed this, the product would be dangerous to use. This is in the manual, and mentioned in my video.

2. I am not touching my panel. I am not feeding power in or using it as a back up. It is a standalone system for EV charging. I can run some extension cords if I wish to power various loads.

3. Yes, Nevada has very strict rules, actually. We adopted most of California's solar permitting/UL requirements.

4. Yes of course. You need to check local laws and regulations. There is nothing in my system that is illegal or not conforming to code. If they expand on the current rules, there is a possibility that it would not conform. But right now, it does.
 
Bud Martin said:
So how does the local government deal with the so called 'Solar Generator' which is basically an All-in-one pre-built package instead of putting each device together yourself and not connected to the grid except when you want to use utility for charging?
How many of the 'Solar generator' actually has the compliance certificate that you can actually look it up?
OP: So is Solar Generator' allowed to be used in your area?
Click to expand...
Bud: I have no idea how the 2020 code, or our AHJ would treat those units. Many people here came up with many different scenarios, most of which I cannot answer. I will restate this one more time, and it might clear up some of the confusion:

Our Midwest state adopted the 2020 NEC. It has language that states at a certain level of voltage, if the energy is used in the house, the system must be listed or approved. The way it was explained to me by our local, and State official, they don't care if it is feeding back to the grid or not. So, I cannot use my Victron, non UL approved inverter, with a yard mounted or roof mounted array, and use that energy in our house. That is just one example. If it is tied to the utility for feedback, they have to approve the whole project before you can even take out a permit. And they demand all listed equipment. Not "compliant". They state you have to prove it is listed, so they need to be able to verify that the device is listed by an NRTL.

I asked if I could run energy in at 24 volts to avoid the 25 volt limit they specify, and was told that if it is inverted to above 24 volts, ac or dc, it had to be permitted. I interpreted that to mean you might be able to wire some low voltage lights, and use them, but I did not ask. Some of this did not make much sense to me, but lets persevere.

I asked about having a variance granted for equipment like Victron, MPP, etc. The state guy said I am welcome to ask for a variance, but they won't vary from the ordinance because no one is willing to risk their job on making a decision like that.

I asked why it would matter if I used a unit like MPP, when half the stuff in the house isn't listed, and who would know anyway? They didn't have an answer.

I was also told it covers batteries, ESS system, etc. But apparently not FLA. Every detail of the battery setup must be specified in the application, and proof of listing supplied. So basically, you can buy a Fortress, Tesla, Enphase, Generac, etc.

As far as Will's video, the questions I asked remain the same, and the outcome, as I understand it, would be the same. I could not permit an LVX, LV, a Solis, Sun, etc. Yes to Solar Edge, Outback, Schneider, SolArk, Magnum, and others of that ilk.

Finally, I have no idea if it covers a car charger. Frankly, I don't even want to ask, for fear of being told no. This same code now requires us to put outside disconnects on all services, rather than the former rules that typically allowed the main panel to be about 6' to 10' away from the point of entry into the house. This is referring to a regular service, not a solar setup.

Hey, everyone make of it what you choose. I'm just reporting what I have been told by the AHJ, not what I have heard from a 3rd party.
 
robby said:
Answering very specifically to this situation I know that Will made it clear in another video that Panels on the ground in Nevada do not fall into any form of regulation. The only question is does an MP LVXX get treated any differently than if he hooked up a Jackery to some panels on the ground and charged his Laptop. It's not grid connected and does not interact with any of his homes electrical wiring. I can see lots of issues if it was connected to his internal wiring but I cannot see a problem if it's just basically a generator powering something on a big extension cord.
Click to expand...
Robby: I'm not talking about how the panels are mounted, but more about how the energy is distributed, and used. I don't care in the least if someone has panels laying against a wall, on the ground, etc. In fact, I considered buying an old mobile home frame to adapt into a back yard temporary (mobile) structure, and was told it would all have to meet the new code requirements if the energy enters in the house, and is inverted for use. I like solar carports too, but have not inquired about those yet.

In many ways, this makes no sense to me. I worry much more about leaving one of my many cordless tools plugged in overnight, in case the BMS would fail, and start a fire. Or one of those cheap oil filled radiators, a portable fan, etc.
 
SolarPrep said:
I cannot use my Victron, non UL approved inverter
Click to expand...
Aren't most Victron inverters UL approved? If you go to the inverter's page on Victron's website, go down to the Downloads section of the page and then click on Certificates. I see several links for UL compliance documents. I don't know if that meets your needs or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Recent Battery Upgrade Issue
Replies
3
Views
189
sunshine_eggo
sunshine_eggo
J
What was your most interesting recent non solar project?
9 10 11
Replies
203
Views
6K
skyking1
skyking1
S
Question regarding inline MC4 Fuses
Replies
14
Views
546
Norwasian
N
G
Video Request for Will Prowse? Regarding EG4 18KPV Hybrid and Smart Load Function
Replies
12
Views
637
WarmPepsi
WarmPepsi
E
Eco Flow answer to bonding their neutral
Replies
18
Views
2K
timselectric
T
Back
Top