diy solar

diy solar

Will please answer this question regarding your recent video...

Bud: There are 12v, and 24v 3000va Victron units that are UL approved. As far as I know, that is it. I would buy 5000va or 8000va units tomorrow if they were UL approved. Nothing 48v is UL listed. If you read on the Victron site, there are many mentions of them getting approval for their models, but years later, very little progress has been made. In fact, when I bought my 48v Victron, I was told it was UL listed. A year later I discovered it wasn't.

If it isn't an NRTL, it doesn't count. That is what I'm trying to get across to people. I did notice yesterday that one of the new MPP units shows that they have TUV approval, and I believe that on the list of NRTL's. Cannot verify that for certain right now.

If you live somewhere that doesn't require this, you are good to go, and can buy what-ever you like. I've lived places that didn't even have an inspector, but that sure isn't the case any longer.

FWIW.
 
Whatever is built into a building usually requires permit, inspection, and listed equipment in the US. That would include off-grid, if built by the book. Perhaps some jurisdictions don't require.

RVs are probably subject to regulation by some federal agency we never think of. I think there's a sticker declaring that.

If you put a generator inlet plug on your house, with proper interlock to ensure main breaker from utility grid is off, getting permits inspections etc. if required, then you would just plug in an extension cord. Might come from a generator, your golf cart with inverter, or Ford electric pickup.

My location has permits for permanently installed standby generators. Portables I don't think they pay any attention to, unless noise ordinance complaints. Big generators for construction jobs I think the state (California) now charges a high registration fee for, and gas generators are going the way of the dodo. Stock up before they're all gone!
 
I do not see it either:
 
Steve: Precisely stated!

It drives me crazy that there is no reliable, easy way to determine exactly what can, or cannot be used. I've talked with the head inspector for our City, the State inspectors, the electrical governing board chairman, etc. The bottom line is that what we have to do now is fill out a "pre-application" form that states what we want to install. All documents and proof must be submitted with it. You have to provide the actual certification showing the applied UL, ETL, etc label. If any of the requested items are not in your submittal, it is denied. And this is all prior to even getting the permit to begin. Then if you get a permit, the installation has to be exactly like what is on that form. If you used a disconnect, fuse, breaker, cable, etc that you cannot prove is "listed or approved", you fail.

With things like this in mind, it makes it especially troublesome to buy ANY equipment in advance. I want to stress that this is NOT our utility doing this...it is the code that has been adopted by our State. The language in that code also covers ESS system, batteries, etc. It clearly states that ALL COMPONENTS must be listed, or approved. They don't mean "compliant". It also closes what they consider a loop hole for people that put a trailer, or RV outside, and put panels on it. About the only thing that might not specifically be covered is if you have a ground mounted system, with no feed into the house, and you want to use it to charge your car. But I'm not even sure if that would be allowed.

I've been very interested in the MPP units, so I contacted Ian at Watts247. He seems like a very knowledgeable guy, and gets back to you quickly. I'd love to do business with him. But, the units on the website that say "UL 1741" are COMPLIANT, according to Ian. Not listed or approved, which means I cannot use any of them.

You cannot trust any advertising copy that states that a unit is certified. If you cannot find the actual listing through a NRTL, it means nothing.
Do you really thank the utility doesn’t have input on the rules and planning process? How can any rule be written without an industry’s input and you can bet the companies that fit the Criteria make sure there equipment will be need and used, like Victron which is quite expensive. They had 40yrs , since Carters’s administration to put policies in place. I still don’t understand why the need to send power to the grid since the rules are changing faster then we can keep up.
 
What about this and this and others in the link @Bud Martin provided

You have to read all the posts, and pay attention to what was stated about NRTLs. Nationally recognized testing laboratories. If the testing isn't done by one of those, it doesn't count. Those certificates don't mean squat here in the USA. Will Prowse made a good point about his audience being international, but my comments are related to a US electrical code that has serious ramifications for this "hobby" of ours. Meaning DIY.

At the bottom of the page there were similar threads, and I saw this one by FilterGuy. It is just one of the many I read , but would be good reading for anyone in the US who might be affected.

 
Do you really thank the utility doesn’t have input on the rules and planning process? How can any rule be written without an industry’s input and you can bet the companies that fit the Criteria make sure there equipment will be need and used, like Victron which is quite expensive. They had 40yrs , since Carters’s administration to put policies in place. I still don’t understand why the need to send power to the grid since the rules are changing faster then we can keep up.

Tony: Of course I believe that the utilities are involved. I just don't want this thread to become a conspiracy theory discussion. I will say this: money talks. When big corporations can give unlimited amounts of money to campaigns for elected officials, they control what happens with legislation. I personally believe that this came about by high pressure lobbying by industries who want to profit from this tidal shift in energy production. In 2017, more energy was produced by renewables, than by nuclear in the USA.

Big oil/gas and others will snap up resources that allow them to control power. If they cannot do that by offering a better product, they can and will do it by forcing you to use their products and services. People will make comments to the effect that they will just go off the grid with their solar. Hey, I might be one of them. But then you might find yourself unable to sell your home, because your municipality won't issue your dwelling an occupancy permit.

When I was first informed about this new code, I could not believe it, and spent a huge amount of time looking into it. I suggest that others do the same. My initial comment on this topic was to help people who might buy a piece of equipment like an MPP, and then find themselves unable to get it permitted. If you don't take out permits, or are not required to follow these guidelines, then this discussion doesn't apply to you.
 
Whatever is built into a building usually requires permit, inspection, and listed equipment in the US. That would include off-grid, if built by the book. Perhaps some jurisdictions don't require.

RVs are probably subject to regulation by some federal agency we never think of. I think there's a sticker declaring that.

If you put a generator inlet plug on your house, with proper interlock to ensure main breaker from utility grid is off, getting permits inspections etc. if required, then you would just plug in an extension cord. Might come from a generator, your golf cart with inverter, or Ford electric pickup.

My location has permits for permanently installed standby generators. Portables I don't think they pay any attention to, unless noise ordinance complaints. Big generators for construction jobs I think the state (California) now charges a high registration fee for, and gas generators are going the way of the dodo. Stock up before they're all gone!

Hedges:
The link I copied from another person on this forum talks specifically about detached structures providing power. The State official here made the comment to me that this closed one of the biggest loopholes in the older code. They did it by determining that if the energy is used in your house at 25 volts or above, it has to be listed. I asked about permitted generator hookups that could be used to hook up a system, even if just for power outages. Nope, not allowed. But it is okay to hook up a ragged old piece of crap generator, and use that energy. I suspect that will be dealt with in the future too.

The part that really upset me about the new regulations is about ESS. It slammed the door on DIY stuff, unless you happen to get it tested by an NRTL and certified. They did that by defining it as a system that provides a certain amount of energy. I don't recall the number. But it is very specific, and calls out that all components must be tested as a complete system, and must all comply. After a lot of consideration, I'm now shifting to look at FLA and sell off all my DIY stuff. Or, moving to another City/State.

For those who choose to just do what they like without a proper permit, good luck. I cannot afford to take that risk.

I'm going to stop commenting on this issue, because I have to go battle with insurance companies who don't want to pay claims for damage done in last years derecho that hit with 140mph winds here. A large percentage of my friends and neighbors still don't have roofs repaired from the damage 18 months ago, and most only got a token payment from their insurance. No way! An insurance company would not do that, while their companies make record profits and their CEO's get record bonuses....and they would certainly not deny a claim because your house burned down due to a BMS that caught on fire with your DIY battery! They would just forgive the fact that you didn't take out a permit, and they would act LIKE A GOOD NEIGHBOR.....like the commercials say. Don't worry, you will be in Good Hands. That is sarcasm, in case it escaped anyone. And no, my house did not burn down.
 
Tony: Of course I believe that the utilities are involved. I just don't want this thread to become a conspiracy theory discussion. I will say this: money talks. When big corporations can give unlimited amounts of money to campaigns for elected officials, they control what happens with legislation. I personally believe that this came about by high pressure lobbying by industries who want to profit from this tidal shift in energy production. In 2017, more energy was produced by renewables, than by nuclear in the USA.

Big oil/gas and others will snap up resources that allow them to control power. If they cannot do that by offering a better product, they can and will do it by forcing you to use their products and services. People will make comments to the effect that they will just go off the grid with their solar. Hey, I might be one of them. But then you might find yourself unable to sell your home, because your municipality won't issue your dwelling an occupancy permit.

When I was first informed about this new code, I could not believe it, and spent a huge amount of time looking into it. I suggest that others do the same. My initial comment on this topic was to help people who might buy a piece of equipment like an MPP, and then find themselves unable to get it permitted. If you don't take out permits, or are not required to follow these guidelines, then this discussion doesn't apply to you.
I agree with everything you have stated. California has already forced people who were living off gird to go back on grid or have their property declare condemned.
 
I agree with everything you have stated. California has already forced people who were living off gird to go back on grid or have their property declare condemned.
I'm sure these folks were not allowed to stay off grid so they just put their luxury off grid 2 story side walk home up for sale.

Screenshot_20220118-122323~2.png
 
Michigan is still rocking the 2015 NEC.

For those asking OP's whereabouts I only know of one midwest state that's moved to the 2020 NEC, so I'd guess North Dakota. It is odd that he's refusing to state his location and suggesting that Will and others must answer for their noncompliance with his code.

All that said, I can't really complain about the rule changes. The residential codes are intended to make it so you can sell a house to someone with no expertise on any given subject, and the house itself and all installed items won't be the source of a fire, gas leak, flood, etc. For those complaining about inspectors who may be using uncertified equipment in their homes, there's a big difference between a non-UL certified coffee maker, and a built-in device. I'm ok with requiring built-in devices be UL certified, as they have to transfer ownership with the home, and while the first owners may have been willing to risk it, it's not reasonable to allow it to be sold with that additional risk.

I started the process of inspections, and got to the point where the inspector said I was OK to turn my system on, then they indicated that I needed a few other inspections - and this is all in an outbuilding, without grid-tie. At that point I gave up and I recognize that I'm going to have to rip it all out if I ever sell it. Even the inspector complained about the code rules - you can have a 240VAC 20A line in plain romex in the outbuilding, but any DC circuit - regardless of voltage or current - must be in metal conduit, including the 150VDC 9A circuit. Plastic conduit isn't enough. It's code compliant, but it's an off-grid setup with an automatic transfer switch, which is uncommon enough that it's not reasonable to expect the next buyer to know what to do with it.

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

I suggest that everyone in this forum understand what their state rules are, and speak up to the commission/council that's in charge of building codes and make sure that if newer codes are adopted, exceptions are put in place to support DIY energy independence. If they don't know that people are interested in this, and that it can be done safely - particularly if it was allowed under older codes - then they'll just accept the NEC as they have no reason not to.

Make sure they know people like you exist and need room to succeed.
 
Michigan is still rocking the 2015 NEC.

For those asking OP's whereabouts I only know of one midwest state that's moved to the 2020 NEC, so I'd guess North Dakota. It is odd that he's refusing to state his location and suggesting that Will and others must answer for their noncompliance with his code.

All that said, I can't really complain about the rule changes. The residential codes are intended to make it so you can sell a house to someone with no expertise on any given subject, and the house itself and all installed items won't be the source of a fire, gas leak, flood, etc. For those complaining about inspectors who may be using uncertified equipment in their homes, there's a big difference between a non-UL certified coffee maker, and a built-in device. I'm ok with requiring built-in devices be UL certified, as they have to transfer ownership with the home, and while the first owners may have been willing to risk it, it's not reasonable to allow it to be sold with that additional risk.

I started the process of inspections, and got to the point where the inspector said I was OK to turn my system on, then they indicated that I needed a few other inspections - and this is all in an outbuilding, without grid-tie. At that point I gave up and I recognize that I'm going to have to rip it all out if I ever sell it. Even the inspector complained about the code rules - you can have a 240VAC 20A line in plain romex in the outbuilding, but any DC circuit - regardless of voltage or current - must be in metal conduit, including the 150VDC 9A circuit. Plastic conduit isn't enough. It's code compliant, but it's an off-grid setup with an automatic transfer switch, which is uncommon enough that it's not reasonable to expect the next buyer to know what to do with it.

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

I suggest that everyone in this forum understand what their state rules are, and speak up to the commission/council that's in charge of building codes and make sure that if newer codes are adopted, exceptions are put in place to support DIY energy independence. If they don't know that people are interested in this, and that it can be done safely - particularly if it was allowed under older codes - then they'll just accept the NEC as they have no reason not to.

Make sure they know people like you exist and need room to succeed.
My plan, is to remove every aspect of my solar back-up system when I put the house up on the market. I've designed the system with that in mind. The only evidence will be one plugged 1 1/4 inch knockout and one plugged 3/4 inch knockout in the main load center. and one plugged 3/4 inch hole in the siding :). In the interim I am internalizing the risk that the non-UL listed components (MPP LV6548, Big Battery Husky, Chins 12V batteries, Jakiper Server Rack Battery) and my handiwork might lead to an uninsured loss.
 
He is the State of Disillusionment & Disgust.
Must be a State Zekret where he/she is and that makes one wonder somewhat... WHY a Zekret, some folks here may know the Ins & Outs of a particular state...

Too funny Steve! People are missing the point, or have misinterpreted some comments I have made. Or, I stated something in a not perfect manner. It isn't necessarily about what State you live in, it is about your AHJ. Our State of Confusion is still on 2017, or something like that. But our City has adopted 2020. They are understaffed, and don't have enough expertise on solar. So when you ask them a question, they punt it to the State officials to answer, because that is where the Fire Code people are. And those, very friendly people (seriously!) then say it is up to the AHJ, so make your case there. Back to where you started, and the people you already talked to tell you to fill out the online form that asks the Utility to evaluate your project.

You can do a solar project here, and not sell energy to the Utility. Then you fill out a rather normal application with the City, but in the end, the Utility will not energize the new equipment demanded by the City, until City puts their tag on it with written permission, and a file number. And the City enforces 2020, and interprets that to be all UL listed or NRTL approved equipment, including batteries, ESS, etc. But there is a catch...the Utility specifies what equipment can be connected to their grid, so if they see, for example, an MPP inverter, they won't energize. That is why I asked Will about his regulation in Nevada. It wasn't to make him defend himself, it was to help prevent people from making the same mistake I did. In my case, buying Victron and lithium DIY batteries that I cannot hookup in the City. Legally hookup, and maintain an occupancy permit.

What State I live in has no bearing on this issue, because it is up to the AHJ, unless your State has other laws. I don't know...I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not looking for legal advice from other people on this forum. I own property in more than one State, and I take out permits for my work. For those people who don't think that an AHJ can make your life hell, I will mention this one tidbit: I spend a lot of money rebuilding properties, and have done so in half a dozen states. I cut no corners, and do very high quality work. I once bought a 22,500 square footing building in the Midwest to use as a workshop, and to store all my tools, shop equipment, etc. We would go from renovation to renovation, and spent half our time moving tolls and supplies from one place to another. So I bought a huge brick commercial building, and dumped $450,000 cash into modernizing it. The City there sent me legal notices that because the 3rd floor of that building had 6 empty apartments, and because I wasn't living in it (or someone else) that it was "abandoned". They fought me, and tried to fine me for over 2 years, although we were down there everyday using our new Square D 400 amp I-line panel with 3 phase 480v. I spite of the fact I restored a crappy old building that formerly had drug addicts living illegally in it. The reason they did it? Because they wanted me to turn all of the apartments into low income housing, and I refused. They would have given me a LOT of money to do so, and guaranteed rents even if no one was living there. This was 20 years ago, but does this sound anything like what is going on right now all over the US with homeless? Drug addicts? To finish that story, I ended up selling the building at a huge loss after some gangs managed to move into the neighborhood, and run down all the property values to the point where no one would move there but trouble makers.

I take all of this NEC 2020 stuff seriously, because I know what can happen if you get on the wrong side of a dispute.
 
Too funny Steve! People are missing the point, or have misinterpreted some comments I have made. Or, I stated something in a not perfect manner. It isn't necessarily about what State you live in, it is about your AHJ. Our State of Confusion is still on 2017, or something like that. But our City has adopted 2020. They are understaffed, and don't have enough expertise on solar. So when you ask them a question, they punt it to the State officials to answer, because that is where the Fire Code people are. And those, very friendly people (seriously!) then say it is up to the AHJ, so make your case there. Back to where you started, and the people you already talked to tell you to fill out the online form that asks the Utility to evaluate your project.

You can do a solar project here, and not sell energy to the Utility. Then you fill out a rather normal application with the City, but in the end, the Utility will not energize the new equipment demanded by the City, until City puts their tag on it with written permission, and a file number. And the City enforces 2020, and interprets that to be all UL listed or NRTL approved equipment, including batteries, ESS, etc. But there is a catch...the Utility specifies what equipment can be connected to their grid, so if they see, for example, an MPP inverter, they won't energize. That is why I asked Will about his regulation in Nevada. It wasn't to make him defend himself, it was to help prevent people from making the same mistake I did. In my case, buying Victron and lithium DIY batteries that I cannot hookup in the City. Legally hookup, and maintain an occupancy permit.

What State I live in has no bearing on this issue, because it is up to the AHJ, unless your State has other laws. I don't know...I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not looking for legal advice from other people on this forum. I own property in more than one State, and I take out permits for my work. For those people who don't think that an AHJ can make your life hell, I will mention this one tidbit: I spend a lot of money rebuilding properties, and have done so in half a dozen states. I cut no corners, and do very high quality work. I once bought a 22,500 square footing building in the Midwest to use as a workshop, and to store all my tools, shop equipment, etc. We would go from renovation to renovation, and spent half our time moving tolls and supplies from one place to another. So I bought a huge brick commercial building, and dumped $450,000 cash into modernizing it. The City there sent me legal notices that because the 3rd floor of that building had 6 empty apartments, and because I wasn't living in it (or someone else) that it was "abandoned". They fought me, and tried to fine me for over 2 years, although we were down there everyday using our new Square D 400 amp I-line panel with 3 phase 480v. I spite of the fact I restored a crappy old building that formerly had drug addicts living illegally in it. The reason they did it? Because they wanted me to turn all of the apartments into low income housing, and I refused. They would have given me a LOT of money to do so, and guaranteed rents even if no one was living there. This was 20 years ago, but does this sound anything like what is going on right now all over the US with homeless? Drug addicts? To finish that story, I ended up selling the building at a huge loss after some gangs managed to move into the neighborhood, and run down all the property values to the point where no one would move there but trouble makers.

I take all of this NEC 2020 stuff seriously, because I know what can happen if you get on the wrong side of a dispute.
Why hide what state?
 
Too funny Steve! People are missing the point, or have misinterpreted some comments I have made. Or, I stated something in a not perfect manner. It isn't necessarily about what State you live in, it is about your AHJ. Our State of Confusion is still on 2017, or something like that. But our City has adopted 2020. They are understaffed, and don't have enough expertise on solar. So when you ask them a question, they punt it to the State officials to answer, because that is where the Fire Code people are. And those, very friendly people (seriously!) then say it is up to the AHJ, so make your case there. Back to where you started, and the people you already talked to tell you to fill out the online form that asks the Utility to evaluate your project.

You can do a solar project here, and not sell energy to the Utility. Then you fill out a rather normal application with the City, but in the end, the Utility will not energize the new equipment demanded by the City, until City puts their tag on it with written permission, and a file number. And the City enforces 2020, and interprets that to be all UL listed or NRTL approved equipment, including batteries, ESS, etc. But there is a catch...the Utility specifies what equipment can be connected to their grid, so if they see, for example, an MPP inverter, they won't energize. That is why I asked Will about his regulation in Nevada. It wasn't to make him defend himself, it was to help prevent people from making the same mistake I did. In my case, buying Victron and lithium DIY batteries that I cannot hookup in the City. Legally hookup, and maintain an occupancy permit.

What State I live in has no bearing on this issue, because it is up to the AHJ, unless your State has other laws. I don't know...I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not looking for legal advice from other people on this forum. I own property in more than one State, and I take out permits for my work. For those people who don't think that an AHJ can make your life hell, I will mention this one tidbit: I spend a lot of money rebuilding properties, and have done so in half a dozen states. I cut no corners, and do very high quality work. I once bought a 22,500 square footing building in the Midwest to use as a workshop, and to store all my tools, shop equipment, etc. We would go from renovation to renovation, and spent half our time moving tolls and supplies from one place to another. So I bought a huge brick commercial building, and dumped $450,000 cash into modernizing it. The City there sent me legal notices that because the 3rd floor of that building had 6 empty apartments, and because I wasn't living in it (or someone else) that it was "abandoned". They fought me, and tried to fine me for over 2 years, although we were down there everyday using our new Square D 400 amp I-line panel with 3 phase 480v. I spite of the fact I restored a crappy old building that formerly had drug addicts living illegally in it. The reason they did it? Because they wanted me to turn all of the apartments into low income housing, and I refused. They would have given me a LOT of money to do so, and guaranteed rents even if no one was living there. This was 20 years ago, but does this sound anything like what is going on right now all over the US with homeless? Drug addicts? To finish that story, I ended up selling the building at a huge loss after some gangs managed to move into the neighborhood, and run down all the property values to the point where no one would move there but trouble makers.

I take all of this NEC 2020 stuff seriously, because I know what can happen if you get on the wrong side of a dispute.

The company I used to work for sold, installed, and maintained commercial building fire systems.
The spec for a system put up for bid would almost always specify that the entire system had to be UL listed. In order to do that, all the components had to have been tested together and UL approved ... not just individual device UL listings.
We would bid the system full UL. Actually, we would never install a system that wasn't full UL.
I was amazing how often another company came along and low ball bid a system that clearly wasn't UL .... and then be awarded the contract .... and after installed get AHJ system approval.
I guess the moral to that is the whole AHJ thing can be very corrupt .... but ... it would get REAL ugly when there was a fire ... people died ... and the system was determine not to be UL by the insurance company.
 
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