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sodium-ion batteries .....

ghostwriter66

"Here - Hold my Beer"
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EE from LAX CA -work in SouthTX for giant evil Oil
So last week they flew 2 of us back to SFO to meet with some of the CATL folks to give us a demo of the sodium-ion batteries that will probably be hitting the market late 2022 but for sure mid 2023.

The first 15 minutes of the conference was them explaining how LFP batteries - which they have based an enormous amount of their financial stability and effort behind is going to start running VERY short starting end of this year and then probably will always be short supply after that... this will cause prices to go up and basically with the anticipated amount of EV cars on the market - they had to come up with a PLAN B quickly ... Because the world relying on an endless supply of "cheap" lithium, Nickle, cobalt and aluminum to make these LFP batteries was a non-starter.

Then next 2 hours was "sodium" time - OK -- so basically the takeaways are pretty straightforward .... to pack the same amount of KWH as LFP the sodium battery has to be about 30% larger BUT instead of being made up of one of the rarest material(s) on earth it is com[posed of basically the 6th most abundant source of material - sodium / salt ... so really its just a big ol' salt battery ...

The first 2 years that the Sodium batteries comes out they will be much larger than LFP and much more expensive (most companies will try to make back their startup costs in the first 3 years for going to Sodium) ... The Chinese (gotta love those ppl) have already started making manufacturing facilities getting ready for Sodium battery production to once again capture the world market. The US manufacturers are apparently still trying to figure out how to spell sodium - plus with our (US) plants being union regulated and OSHA, etc etc - unless there is an embargo tax - the Chinese Sodium batteries will again be about 1/2 the price as the US made ones are ...

anyway ... the take away is Sodium-Ion batteries compared to lithium-iron phosphate batteries will have a somewhat higher cost (initially first 2 years) and will be about 30% lower energy density (same size comparison), and if you are not concerned about the extra weight or size - they will have similar power delivery characteristics. In about 2025 the Chinese will have got the cost of making these batteries so low that LFP will probably become a niche market since a huge Sodium Ion customer will be those using it for home and grid storage systems where battery weight is not important.

However until they can get the weight down - which they will through improving density - the EV market and the portable device market will still be Lithium based ...

What a cool time for all of us to be involved in all of this ...
 
they will have similar power delivery characteristics. In about 2025 the Chinese will have got the cost of making these batteries so low that LFP will probably become a niche market since a huge Sodium Ion customer will be those using it for home and grid storage systems where battery weight is not important.

Has charge and discharge characteristics/specifics changed much over the life of Lifepo4?

Seems as they understand chemistry and construction more they work out how to milk more cycles, 2000 -> 4000 -> 6000.

Wonder where the cycle count will start at the beginning as they learn the chemistry and construction methods.

I imagine they are fail safe from thermal runaway and puncture problems as well.

First DIY builds in 2024 then?
 
The world need open source Sodium-ion batteries! The availablity of required resources in large amount on planet earth makes this worthwhile....
 
Do these contain sodium metal?
I like "non-toxic", but I like even more "reactive"

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So last week they flew 2 of us back to SFO to meet with some of the CATL folks to give us a demo of the sodium-ion batteries that will probably be hitting the market late 2022 but for sure mid 2023.

The first 15 minutes of the conference was them explaining how LFP batteries - which they have based an enormous amount of their financial stability and effort behind is going to start running VERY short starting end of this year and then probably will always be short supply after that... this will cause prices to go up and basically with the anticipated amount of EV cars on the market - they had to come up with a PLAN B quickly ... Because the world relying on an endless supply of "cheap" lithium, Nickle, cobalt and aluminum to make these LFP batteries was a non-starter.

Then next 2 hours was "sodium" time - OK -- so basically the takeaways are pretty straightforward .... to pack the same amount of KWH as LFP the sodium battery has to be about 30% larger BUT instead of being made up of one of the rarest material(s) on earth it is com[posed of basically the 6th most abundant source of material - sodium / salt ... so really its just a big ol' salt battery ...

The first 2 years that the Sodium batteries comes out they will be much larger than LFP and much more expensive (most companies will try to make back their startup costs in the first 3 years for going to Sodium) ... The Chinese (gotta love those ppl) have already started making manufacturing facilities getting ready for Sodium battery production to once again capture the world market. The US manufacturers are apparently still trying to figure out how to spell sodium - plus with our (US) plants being union regulated and OSHA, etc etc - unless there is an embargo tax - the Chinese Sodium batteries will again be about 1/2 the price as the US made ones are ...

anyway ... the take away is Sodium-Ion batteries compared to lithium-iron phosphate batteries will have a somewhat higher cost (initially first 2 years) and will be about 30% lower energy density (same size comparison), and if you are not concerned about the extra weight or size - they will have similar power delivery characteristics. In about 2025 the Chinese will have got the cost of making these batteries so low that LFP will probably become a niche market since a huge Sodium Ion customer will be those using it for home and grid storage systems where battery weight is not important.

However until they can get the weight down - which they will through improving density - the EV market and the portable device market will still be Lithium based ...

What a cool time for all of us to be involved in all of this ...
You hit the nail on the Head:
US Manufacture: Union Run, Osha Restricted, Taxed into Mediocrity, Ect.
Chinese Manufacture: Lets make some batteries...
 
So last week they flew 2 of us back to SFO to meet with some of the CATL folks to give us a demo of the sodium-ion batteries that will probably be hitting the market late 2022 but for sure mid 2023.

The first 15 minutes of the conference was them explaining how LFP batteries - which they have based an enormous amount of their financial stability and effort behind is going to start running VERY short starting end of this year and then probably will always be short supply after that... this will cause prices to go up and basically with the anticipated amount of EV cars on the market - they had to come up with a PLAN B quickly ... Because the world relying on an endless supply of "cheap" lithium, Nickle, cobalt and aluminum to make these LFP batteries was a non-starter.

Then next 2 hours was "sodium" time - OK -- so basically the takeaways are pretty straightforward .... to pack the same amount of KWH as LFP the sodium battery has to be about 30% larger BUT instead of being made up of one of the rarest material(s) on earth it is com[posed of basically the 6th most abundant source of material - sodium / salt ... so really its just a big ol' salt battery ...

The first 2 years that the Sodium batteries comes out they will be much larger than LFP and much more expensive (most companies will try to make back their startup costs in the first 3 years for going to Sodium) ... The Chinese (gotta love those ppl) have already started making manufacturing facilities getting ready for Sodium battery production to once again capture the world market. The US manufacturers are apparently still trying to figure out how to spell sodium - plus with our (US) plants being union regulated and OSHA, etc etc - unless there is an embargo tax - the Chinese Sodium batteries will again be about 1/2 the price as the US made ones are ...

anyway ... the take away is Sodium-Ion batteries compared to lithium-iron phosphate batteries will have a somewhat higher cost (initially first 2 years) and will be about 30% lower energy density (same size comparison), and if you are not concerned about the extra weight or size - they will have similar power delivery characteristics. In about 2025 the Chinese will have got the cost of making these batteries so low that LFP will probably become a niche market since a huge Sodium Ion customer will be those using it for home and grid storage systems where battery weight is not important.

However until they can get the weight down - which they will through improving density - the EV market and the portable device market will still be Lithium based ...

What a cool time for all of us to be involved in all of this ...
https://natron.energy/product/
over 50,000 cycles check the brochure and specifications links. not quite lithium ion in energy density but close and charges in 8 minutes.
accepts 72 amps max. charge. haven't found out the price yet. a lot shorter looking rack mount than other storage batteries.
 
i checked out the spec. sheet. total power .27kwh 5ah miniscule!!!! i still haven't gotten a price from them.
5kwh / .27 kwh = 18 of them to buy and stack. ridiculous for a storage battery.
 
I think with looming battery shortages us DIYers will have to rely on used and salvage batteries for our projects. And we might have to think about developing manual lithium battery recycling process where we separate and recover without damage aluminum and copper foil, lithium carbonate and graphite paste and separator to be cleaned and reused in new batteries. A sort of hobby lithium battery materials recovery process where we make our own batteries. It may be feasible to disassemble large LFP prismatic cells due to their size and width. 18650 sized batteries are too small to be feasible and would be too labor intensive. Don't throw away your old dead LFP cells.
 
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While 50k cycle life is impressive did CATL people mention expected calendar aging rate? LFP expected to last 20 years in solar storage application, how about these sodium-ion batteries?
great question!

i too want to learn more about how the capacity of sodium cells reduces over time vs temperature of cell materials.

e.g. (EXAMPLE, not real specs!)
after 1 year at 25 C, usable capacity will be 2% less.
after 1 year at 50 C, usable capacity will be 20% less
 
50k cycles over 10 years would be 13.5 cycles/day.
Ideal for an application that might cycle every 2 hours, or every hour during daytime.
8 minute recharge time.

This would be good for electrifying commuter busses, trains, boats, maybe airplanes, that make periodic stops.
Also construction and factory tools.

Since it likely has premium price when first introduced, power packs for professional tools would be a good early application.
 
Professional tools (power tools I take it) won’t trade size/density for chemistry.
 
As of the latest 2021 pre-potassiated TS2 advancement, will only 85.3% capacity after 500 cycles be sufficient or desirable?


I hate to say it, but I can do better than that with lead-acid and proper care. Which is recyclable. Is potassium-ion recyclable or so natural in composition that recycling is a lost cause - with cases just going to the dump? These are considerations...
 
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Ugh - even I get caught up in the cycling trap - where it is easy to simply beat the clock of calendrical aging by doing repetetive back to back charges in a lab-controlled temperature environment.

How well does 500 cycles at 85.3% capacity do over the course of say 4 years? 8 years or so when one may only cycle once a day?

This is where these cells need to be subject to advanced coulimetric testing to even be considered feasable for real-world use.
 
Forget it! The world’s most advanced chemists still have no idea how LiFePO4 ages under sub-C applications. (they can’t even agree on what reactions are taking place). This is technology that is 20 years old. No chance there will be accurate simulations of Sodium-ion any time soon.
 
As of the latest 2021 pre-potassiated TS2 advancement, will only 85.3% capacity after 500 cycles be sufficient or desirable?


I hate to say it, but I can do better than that with lead-acid and proper care. Which is recyclable. Is potassium-ion recyclable or so natural in composition that recycling is a lost cause - with cases just going to the dump? These are considerations...

The issue will be that US manufacturing will stand around trying to figure out how to be politically correct while the Chinese companies will hit the ground running hard on making these sodium batteries ... the trick will be though especially for CATL to be able to sell the Sodium's without destroying the LiFePO4 market and ride that LFP market out as far as it can go ....

LiFePO4 will never go away -- ppl still will want the density and the longevity ...

BUT the good thing is that you will see sodium batteries come in at the same price as LiFePO4 batteries and then BOTH will fall dramatically as a race to the bottom in pricing ...

CATL and EVE will still be the world leaders and making billions and the US companies will still be trying to remember which colour is on top for the Diversity flag being flown ....
 
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