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diy solar

Solar house generator I started DIY back in 2000 - My path from Trace to Xantrex (on FLA battery) to XW Pro inverters on Tesla Model S batteries

I just stumbled across a local dealer for the Sigineer inverters

they carry:

12kw for $2,200
15kw for $2810
18kw for $4200

I called them and he will get back to me on:

1) does their product have the Tesla charging profile available on their Selection #9? I think due to jack they added that to their entire lineup a couple of years ago. Their add line has:

Works With Lithium or Lead Acid Batteries

2) does it have an internal N-G Bond switch? He gave me a verbal that it does an ENABLE/DISABLE but will follow up with an email
if it does it will work as my 3 pole transfer switch disconnects the grid's neutral when the inverter is selected

The next great thing is, I can do a Will Call pickup and save the shipping. They are located some 50 miles from home

They are a dealer supporting Sigineer and that would be good for future support

If all the answers to my question are GOOD, then the 12kw version would match my needs perfectly as
it is in the ball park price of the Growatt's price, and a 12kw

(also, I think the Growatt 12k transformer IS using a Sigineer transformer, just has different control board and different interface features)

sure I would not have the digital monitoring etc, but would be able to utilize the entire battery capacity down to 38.0v LVD
when LVD occurs they switch off inverting and begins Grid charging of battery and support for the loads until the
battery is charged to 50.5 volts.

50.5 volts would work for me - my solar is set to charge to 49.52, and solar does the bulk of the charging
grid charging would only occur infrequently, and less often as I add battery modules

this just MIGHT work out
Wow talk about silver lining, just having a basically local supplier if you burn a board is worth a lot.
 
I found some more info on the sigineer inverters, here is an email from the local dealer

Hi Brad
The HP12048D battery type selector 9 has no tesla battery algorithm,
only the HP15048D and HP18048D have that.

There is no ground to neutral connection for this inverter. The output neutral is floating by default.

Yours sincerely

Franklin Chu
Sales


Brad Ludlow
Electric Car Parts Company
Energetech Solar


7427 Main St W

Midvale, UT 84047

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Then found some links at Sigineer itself on this issue:


120V / 240V Split Phase Inverter Chargers​

Sigineer Power’s 120/240V Split Phase Inverter Chargers go from 3,000 watts to 15,000 watts & 18,000W with DC input of 12V, 24V, 48V & 96V.

What is a split phase inverter?

120/240 Vac split phase is a type of single-phase three-wire mid-point neutral power distribution system commonly found in America with a standard phase-neutral voltage of 120 Vac for residential and light commercial applications. The phase to phase( Live to Live) voltage is 240Vac for heavy industrial loads such as compressors, fridge, and pumps. Because of the 120-0-120 voltage configuration, it is also sometimes referred to as dual-phase, 2 phase / two-phase or even mistakenly, single-phase 220Vac.

These low-frequency split-phase inverters take 240v nominal input from shore power or generator for charging. This 240V can be from a 240V center tapped split-phase power supply of 2 hotlines or the 208V 3 phase Wye system. When the AC input is from 3 phase power system, the 3 phase neutral should NEVER be connected to our inverter.

In battery mode, these inverters produce 2 legs of 120v hotlines which can be hooked to the 220V mains power distribution panel in your home or mobile business vehicle.

There are two 120v hotlines, one neutral and one ground.

The voltage between L1 and L2 is 240 Vac, between either one hotline and the neutral is 120V. The 240V is made by the two hotlines cycling 180 degrees out of phase with each other.
This power system can drive either 120V or 240V equipments. The 120V is perfect for home and small scale commercial or mobile applications.

Our popular pure sine wave split phase inverter chargers are:

These split phase inverter models are a combination of 120 240V inverter, smart battery charger, and transfer switch, and can be easily integrated into your current house wiring.
With the seamless transition transfer switch, the 2 phase inverters are virtually a line interactive UPS ( Uninterruptible Power Supply ) for emergency situations and natural disasters.

In North American households, the neutral is always bonded to earth ground in the electrical panel. DON’T connect the AC input neutral to inverter ground. The AC input N is not required in the wiring. The output Neutral of the inverter is floating, it is not connected to ground in operation.

120V 240V split phase inverter AC wiring
120V 240V split phase inverter AC wiring
Click to review the Sigineer Power split phase inverter schematics in both AC mode and battery mode

Our split-phase inverters support wiring with neutral bonded with the ground or not.

NEC code requires the neutral bonded with the ground.

For other applications, neutral and ground separation preferred. Follow this wiring instruction.

We have some customized split phase inverter charger compliant with the requirements of UL 1741 for use in stand-alone (not grid-connected) power systems, these models have the neutral grounded. They are not listed on our website publicly.

We also have some split-phase Tesla battery inverters with voltage setting for Tesla battery modules.

--------------

order entry for 15kw
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schematic


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Important wiring instruction for split phase inverter chargers with floating neutral​

02/15/2020/0 Comments/in Features/by Sigineer Power

Important wiring instruction for split phase inverter chargers with floating neutral

You may have come across the terms “floating” and “bonded” neutral. While they sound obscure to most people knowing little about electrical engineering, they are an important factor when hooking up inverter chargers.

For Sigineer Power’s split phase inverter chargers, they are NOT UL1741 listed, the output floating neutral is NOT bonded with the ground.

It MUST be separated from the earth ground. (emphasis mine)

The NEC calls this a “Floating Neutral” and “Isolated Grounds” on the Load Panels.

This is can be facilitated by removing the green bonding screw from the load panels and then Isolating all the neutrals (White Wires) to the neutral bar and then Isolating all the ground wires (Bare Copper Ground Wires) to the Isolated Ground Buss-Bar when this bonding screw is removed.
In most residential wiring systems in the USA, there is just a single service panel that acts as a combination Service Panel/Load Center.

Residential Master electricians Bond The Neutral Bar to the Case which is earth grounded with this Green Screw. This configuration works fine for a single combination Service/Load panel as the Neutral and Ground wires are treated as the same. It simplifies wire hookup with Grounds and Neutrals.

Commercial Master Electricians know how to Float the Neutrals on their Load Centers by removing these Green Bonding Ground Screws. If the proper floating neutral isn’t performed concerning Load panels this will facilitate a feedback loop to the mains service panel which will heat up the Mains In Lines Buss-Bar wasting energy and possibly resulting in a Fire.

When utilizing emergency generators this practice of Floating The Neutrals and Isolating the earth ground is very important for the same reason.
Any misjudgment can be very dangerous.

Inverter failure caused by bonded neutral with the ground void the manufacturer’s warranty.

 
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I still have issues with that YES answer in the picture

I want to know the layout of GRID input, service panels, inverter.
What is model schematic for the above answer.

Many assumptions made of the configuration above

For example, in OFF grid totally, can the inverter be N-G Bonded?

Looks like with a grid assist though, even with a switched neutral (input neutral NOT connected to output neutral), like I have done with the 3 pole switch (L1, L2 and Neutral disconnected from grid), do NOT put a N-G Bond on the output side

mmmmm
 
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Wow great info…. Thanks Doug…

These Sigs sure do sound dialed in for these modules voltage wise. Some show a $200 off promotion as well.

An interesting note on their specs….. “Warning: The output of the Tesla Battery Compatible Inverter will be de-rated by about 10% when the battery voltage drops below the nominal cut off of 20V, 40V, and 80V.

 
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that means as the battery voltage is getting low (by the respective numbers), you do lose that 10% or 1500 watts of output on the 15kw unit
so don't run the loads near the max at the same time as the battery is exhausted.
 
Here is a link to a great article/collection on inverter info


@FilterGuy has done a GREAT service on this site
 
Going back to step 1 in researching inverters to re-check my options.

when I first began Phase 2 I chose Schneider MPPT 60 150 charge controller as an upgrade when I switched to 48v arrays. Used to have 24v controllers, which I sold. With 4 arrays/strings I now have 4 of these Schneider CCs. I have them connected with their Xanbus and to the cloud, etc using the Conext Gateway 2 for remote access

At the time, I looked at using the Schneider XW+ inverter, but looking at the price of it and balance of system (BOS) components AND with the Low Battery Cut Off (LBCO) or as I have called it, LVD voltage, it was 40 volts. Too high for the Teslas. This wasted battery capacity. (UPDATE: I was wrong in that) That is when I found a Xantrex 5.5kw 120v inverter on ebay, bought it and converted to 48v battery.

So.....

Tonight I looked at the LBCO voltage for the Schneider XW Pro inverter
series for its numbers......

page 202, battery settings table.

I found something that works for me: LBCO voltage has a range of 36-48v. JACKPOT it will fully work with the teslas

this inverter will handle the Tesla battery fully, just like my current Xantrex 5.5kw inverter AND will provide 240v AC Output

$3300 from Signature Solar for the inverter. Plus $1200 for the PDP - Power Distribution Panel
This PDP will support 3 inverters, if I had the wall space - I don't. But 2 inverters is plenty. It is a Hybrid inverter with full UL1741 SA compliance.

With the space I do have on my wall, I could swap over to this package with 1 inverter now (near future) with the option to add a 2nd inverter with my wall space and it will interface with my current CCs. I have 5' or 60" of wall space and that will fit 2 inverters, the PDP and 2 CCs on each side, it would fit.
And support the Tesla battery. 13.6 kw inverter setup

So, I have some future options going forward.

And it deals properly with N-G Bonding
 
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I have also updated my 1 line schematic on the AC side

Refer to Post #1 for that schematic

 
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Pretty much whole house on critical loads panel.
Do you have a priority scheme to disable larger loads based on SoC and possibly other parameters (like present and anticipated production)?
You might want a way to enable range for electric cooking during times when there's plenty of PV.
 
Pretty much whole house on critical loads panel.

yes, that has been the ultimate goal, and it feels great

Do you have a priority scheme to disable larger loads based on SoC and possibly other parameters (like present and anticipated production)?

No, I don't. The highest load I have seen on the meter in the kitchen has been 3200 watts for the house
The current inverter does not have enough smarts as the newer ones today. It is a 2005 model
I do know my home computer lab consumes 6-7 kwh a day - biggest single load on the system 650 watts when the 4 monitors are on
274 watts when monitors are off. 4k monitors
that includes, cable modem, Wifi router, 10gb router, 24 port 1gb router, 6 raspiberry pi's, etc

during day, the house load runs some 1.5kw, at night 500 to 800 watts, depending on which appliance cycles


You might want a way to enable range for electric cooking during times when there's plenty of PV.

Good option, but will need the 240v inverter and a willing wife, lol

When battery is full, I heat water with 2000 watt coils

thanks for the comments/suggestion

Rainy today, now that the 100 degree days are now over
we generated 15 kwh today, full sun I can get 40kwh (on the 9th we did that), when the battery 1/2 full
small house 1100 sq-ft

7300 watts Voc on the roof
 
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I meant to keep the wife happy, if grid is down.

Thought this was about the plan for 240V inverter. Even 120V would likely provide some power to burners on the range. 1/4 the power so turn up higher. Hope your inverter doesn't mind SCR or whatever switching every half cycle. Oven cycles on and off, might be a nicer load.

A separate battery monitor, voltage based or whatever, could enable/disable larger loads. Unless you have so much PV you don't need to conserve. I don't during the day (more PV, less house than you), but I do to make it through the night. (Last time my system tripped off grid due to breaker issues at a time of high production, I didn't notice until it shut down for low SoC at 8:00 AM. Automatic shedding of some loads could help with that, or in my case turning off more things at night when running from batteries.)
 
I meant to keep the wife happy, if grid is down.
yes
Thought this was about the plan for 240V inverter.
WELL there is now and then there is when a new inverter installed. abt a year out now, if I go with the schneider
Even 120V would likely provide some power to burners on the range. 1/4 the power so turn up higher. Hope your inverter doesn't mind SCR or whatever switching every half cycle. Oven cycles on and off, might be a nicer load.
that is an interesting idea
A separate battery monitor, voltage based or whatever, could enable/disable larger loads. Unless you have so much PV you don't need to conserve. I don't during the day (more PV, less house than you), but I do to make it through the night. (Last time my system tripped off grid due to breaker issues at a time of high production, I didn't notice until it shut down for low SoC at 8:00 AM.

ow

Automatic shedding of some loads could help with that, or in my case turning off more things at night when running from batteries.)
yes. With the Schneider back in the running, I could do alot of that
 
@Jennifer

Telsa modules are at $850 + $150 Shipping

this is the guy I have bought most of my modules from



I think the EG4 batteries are giving the Tesla design a run for the money.
Today if I were starting NOW to build a system, I definitely would go EG4 or similar server rack batteries and not necessarily the testla modules.
But as I have an investment I will continue acquiring Teslas until my bank is "full". (22 modules)

I assume that is why the used tesla modules are getting better pricing

BTW, I just ordered module 12, that is why I found out
 
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@Jennifer

Telsa modules are at $850 + $150 Shipping

this is the guy I have bought most of my modules from



I think the EG4 batteries are giving the Tesla design a run for the money.
Today if I were starting NOW to build a system, I definitely would go EG4 or similar server rack batteries and not necessarily the testla modules.
But as I have an investment I will continue acquiring Teslas until my bank is "full". (22 modules)

I assume that is why the used tesla modules are getting better pricing

BTW, I just ordered module 12, that is why I found out
I seriously think it’s time to dump these 16 Battleborns and buy more Tesla modules
 
So my new course of action is to GO Schneider.
Plan and implement for a 240v inverter with deployment allowing for a 2nd inverter in the future

So I need the following:

The large PDP box $1184 + Sales Tax + Shipping
The XW Pro 6.8kw inverter $3296 + Sales Tax + Shipping

both from Signature Solar

will continue to acquire over time
now I have a direction and a goal in mind

Interesting notes:

my first inverter was the Trace SW4024 4kw inverter, 24v battery, 120v AC
my second inverter was/is the Xantrex 5.5kw inverter, 48v battery, 120v AC
Xantrex bought Trace

now looking at Schneider's Conext XW Pro, 6.8kw, 48v battery, 120/240 AC
Schneider bought Xantrex
 
So my new course of action is to GO Schneider.
Plan and implement for a 240v inverter with deployment allowing for a 2nd inverter in the future

So I need the following:

The large PDP box $1184 + Sales Tax + Shipping
The 6.8kw inverter $3296 + Sales Tax + Shipping

both from Signature Solar

will continue to acquire over time
now I have a direction and a goal in mind
Funny I’m leaving Schneider and your buying in, let me know before you buy a battery monitor and a conext gateway box, I have both new in the box I may toss on eBay


 
Funny I’m leaving Schneider and your buying in, let me know before you buy a battery monitor and a conext gateway box, I have both new in the box I may toss on eBay



yep, but you are using the older SW inverter. No experience with that.
I am currently using my Gateway (retired unit, not the new InsightHome version) with my 4 Conext CCs, MPPT 60 150s

I mistakening bought the older SCP unit that was used before the Gateway, so that is laying around somewhere

I would be interested in battery monitor. But not at the moment, need to pay off the module I just bought.
but after that, sure.

I know you had issues with the SW, which inverter you going to?
 
yep, but you are using the older SW inverter. No experience with that.
I am currently using my Gateway (retired unit, not the new InsightHome version) with my 4 Conext CCs, MPPT 60 150s

I mistakening bought the older SCP unit that was used before the Gateway, so that is laying around somewhere

I would be interested in battery monitor. But not at the moment, need to pay off the module I just bought.
but after that, sure.

I know you had issues with the SW, which inverter you going to?
I've been building out a Victron system, have several of the multiplus's, will be going with a 15K Quattro as main and then adding another to that as needed. My main issue with the SCH was them removing the ability to stack them from the firmware without telling us or compensating with a buy up path etc...took away a feature I depended on, may keep the SW 4048 as a pump house well inverter as it's a true transformer inv, 240 and built like a you know what... very good inverter.. was more pissed about their business tactics than the gear, the gear's rock solid. I love the Victron ecosystem though and they listen to us, they just (well, last year just) lowered the LVD on their inverters just for Tesla users. GREAT community, firmware updates almost daily if needed, open source monitoring system (Cerbo GX) you can put on your own hardware. Great professional network with lots of training and blogs etc.


 
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I've been building out a Victron system, have several of the multiplus's, will be going with a 15K Quattro as main and then adding another to that as needed. My main issue with the SCH was them removing the ability to stack them from the firmware without telling us or compensating with a buy up path etc...took away a feature I depended on, may keep the SW 4048 as a pump house well inverter as it's a true transformer inv, 240 and built like a you know what... very good inverter.. was more pissed about their business tactics than the gear, the gear's rock solid. I love the Victron ecosystem though and they listen to us, they just (well, last year just) lowered the LVD on their inverters just for Tesla users. GREAT community, firmware updates almost daily if needed, open source monitoring system (Cerbo GX) you can put on your own hardware. Great professional network with lots of training and blogs etc.


thanks, good hear

I knew the SW was "aging out" and might lack support, and your case proves it

nice response on the LVD. That is probably why I stopped looking at them, back when the LVD was too high
 
with the new tesla module additions pending (1 here now, 1 shipped today), I am finally going to change the wiring of the modules

Instead of daisy chaining cables from module to module (or set of modules as you will see), I am finally going to install my 2"x14"x5' copper buss bars. Then remove battery cables and setup them up to connect to the buss bars.
 
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