10 years or 20?

[fatjay]

I don't think I agree. I think there's potential for these things to be running 20+ years. I look around at the computers and various other electronic equipment I have and it is very rarely replaced because it fries, it is replaced because it ages out and becomes irrelevant.

Sure there are failures, but I think it will end up being the exception rather than the rule.

 

[grebaba]

I started out with the cheap stuff to learn a little about solar.
First was the Renogy 400 w kit.
Then as I learned a little more about I moved up a little to the EG4-3000. I am really glad I built a separate shed for it because it scream's even at idle.
Now I have bought a Victron 12-1200 and and 150-70 for my 12v system.
For the house system I have bough a Victron 48-5000 and a Morningster TS-MPPT-60-600V-48-DB-TR for the start of that system.
I could have bought cheaper but wanted my main system to outlast me.
Greg

 

[wpns]

To be fair, EG4/SS has really upped their game lately and have increased their tech support here and on the phone to the point where _I_ believe they are the DIY choice, and I’m not sorry I bought into their ecosystem. However, when my neighbor wanted a turnkey and professionally supported system for someone with no technical skills, I pointed him at the local Tesla dealer at four times the price.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I'm a quality buff. I will gladly spend a lot more money on a product that I think is a higher quality than the competitor. And I'm pulling my hair out trying to understand which brands and models of AiOs are the better quality.

Here's what I think so far, based on the last several months of digging through these forums and watching tear-down and review videos. I'm really not confident in these findings. So please offer your experiences with them.

Sol-Ark, Midnight Solar, Schneider and a few others seem like 20-25 year equipment. These look like the kind of devices that someone in the distant future will be still using and it will just keep working. The units might get replaced just because they have become dinosaurs at that point and modern stuff no longer can interface with them. They are heavy, use thick metal, quality components, and have great internal build quality, isolation and the like.

EG4, Lux Power, Growatt, Tigo are at best 7-10 year hardware. These devices might perform well and have decent feature parity with the brands above. But they have a higher chance of being DOA, a higher rate of failure overall, generally lower quality in every way, especially circuit board layout, HV and noise isolation, component grade, case durability and software usability and quality. I lump these in with modern refrigerators and washing machines that USED to last 25 years, but now literally are designed to work only for 5-10 years.

I want 20 years. I want the solar setup to increase the value of my home in several years when we sell it. I don't want it to be worn out and about ready to be replaced by that point. Spend more now to save more later. I only recently replaced the washing machine I bought in 1994.

Please, change my mind on some of this stuff.

Especially EG4. Everyone seems to like them. But I can't really tell what I would be getting from them. The pics look great. But when I saw a tear-down of the 18KPV, I was disappointed by the case metal thickness, and the way the circuit boards are organized inside the device. This makes me worry about things like the power quality they produce, electrical and physical noise, whether the fans will crap out long before the rest of the system does, or whether they will blow smoke, given some random unexpected event that another brand would handle without issue.

do you absolutely have to have an all in one? why not go with separate components? you get much better quality and you will more than likely definitely get your 20-30 years... you will pay for it, make no mistake about that.

I chose the separate components route as I wanted quality. My personnel favorite is supposedly going away after they were bought out, still researching this, but if i was going to do exactly what I did now I would simply use a victron, schneider or midnite inverter in place of the magnums I currently use.

these ones all cost more then EG4 or any of the other AIO's available out there by a lot but you get what you pay for. just my thoughts.

 

[SeaGal]

10 or 20 years? "Spontaneous Technical Failure" or "Becoming Redundant via ageing"? I have those thoughts about myself as well as my two inverters

 

[OffGridForGood]

For quality equipment, in addition to ones already mentioned, I would include SMA, and Fronius.

 

[Danke]

Another thing to consider. I’m currently staying at a place with an older Schneider inverter. He can’t add on/parallel because of its age (unless he can find used somewhere). Less of a hit if you buy a much cheaper system and decide to upgrade/enlarge in the future.

 

[Philip53]

Regarding AIO's vs individual pieces, no one has mentioned the heat factor. My system is an older XW with separate Schneider components. There is a lot more surface area in a component system for heat to dissapate. To some this may seem a minor issue, but heat is the #1 enemy of all electronics (well, moisture too). As I recently added a 3rd array & controller which allowed my XW to reach max output for a large part of the day, I noticed the XW and the 3rd controller running at a very high temp. I added a double computer type fan to the top of the XW and wow, did I get much more heated air coming out of the unit. It was noticeably cooler on the outside of the unit. The 3rd controller was at max output most of the day as well (59.9 amps), so I added a small wall mounted fan below & aimed it at the entire electronics 'wall' - made a big difference in the heat extracted from all of the electronics.

Now, I mention this simply to illustrate that while an AIO is sexy looking, and takes up less space, it HAS to retain more heat, even with high speed (noisy) fans. Not to mention more complicated internal component replacement, when required. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Mattb4]

I don't think I agree. I think there's potential for these things to be running 20+ years. ...

Most items still running after 20 years do so because they are lightly used and better maintained. My Chevy truck is an example. I bought it new in 2000. It is still running excellently today. It has 42,000 miles on it much of which was in its first few years. Now I use it once a month to go to town for a total of 70 miles traveled. Minor repairs and maintenance.

If someone was to proclaim it to be an example of how good the quality was they would fall for the Survivorship Bias fallacy. I don't have the numbers for my model and year but I would bet a good 95% of them are now recycled metal.

 

[fatjay]

Most items still running after 20 years do so because they are lightly used and better maintained. My Chevy truck is an example. I bought it new in 2000. It is still running excellently today. It has 42,000 miles on it much of which was in its first few years. Now I use it once a month to go to town for a total of 70 miles traveled. Minor repairs and maintenance.

If someone was to proclaim it to be an example of how good the quality was they would fall for the Survivorship Bias fallacy. I don't have the numbers for my model and year but I would bet a good 95% of them are now recycled metal.

Well that's because chevy. My ford truck is from 2004 and has 250k miles on it and still runs like a top. I use it for hauling heavy crap regularly. But they're mechanical devices with moving parts, oils and fluids. Look at ev's by comparison in terms of maintenance.

Electronics are much more robust/durable, there's no moving parts. Even my desktop computer is 8 years old. I have servers that I just retired after 10 years of service because they're no longer relevant.

And ideally, your solid state inverters and AIO's won't be beating at 100% 24/7. if so, you didn't properly plan. I have 18k inverter capacity and am right now using 3822w of power. Across 6 inverters, if that's balanced properly, that's a 20% load. Overnight, it's less than half that. Even at peak consumption of 13k, that's still 70% per inverter, and only for brief periods.

Yes, we live in a world of waste. It's a shame really. Tech is moving so fast, it's outdating machines very rapidly.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Chevy truck is an example.

recycled metal.

there, fixed it for ya!

 

[Sparks-n-Splinters]

Yes, we live in a world of waste. It's a shame really. Tech is moving so fast, it's outdating machines very rapidly.

This speaks to much of my concern. The equipment is not being made as junk for the most part, however they are outdated simply because they no longer support the latest software. I don't need the latest software. I don't need and refuse to worry my brain about keeping up with the "next best thing" full of bugs to work out until it performs like it should only until the next software update. There are plenty of threads here that speak of these issues.
If you can build a system that generates what you need why not run it till "the wheels fall off" then build a new one? Or like your old ford, keep it maintained and have a shelf of parts to replace what fails.

 

[Mattb4]

there, fixed it for ya!

Now now. I grew up in a GM household. My dad worked for a GM diesel outfit and Chevy/GM was the only brand he would own. Frankly I am brand agnostic as I have seen good and bad from all companies.

Besides: Ford was a acronym for Fix Or Repair Daily.

 

[AntronX]

My system is an older XW with separate Schneider components.

Those XW are forever inverters. Even if the brain dies you can replace it with some other PWM sine wave controller and keep the whole thing operational. Won't be as smart as original but it will still make AC.

 

[fatjay]

This speaks to much of my concern. The equipment is not being made as junk for the most part, however they are outdated simply because they no longer support the latest software. I don't need the latest software. I don't need and refuse to worry my brain about keeping up with the "next best thing" full of bugs to work out until it performs like it should only until the next software update. There are plenty of threads here that speak of these issues.
If you can build a system that generates what you need why not run it till "the wheels fall off" then build a new one? Or like your old ford, keep it maintained and have a shelf of parts to replace what fails.

That's the thing, in inverter is just that, an inverter. It doesn't need software updates or any bloat, it's a power supply. And you can be sure if it was mainstream, software and updates would be required or things would be unstable and they'd randomly remove features you use in the next version that you didn't want to begin with.

I find a nice stable decent thing, and I stick with it.

 

[grebaba]

That's the thing, in inverter is just that, an inverter. It doesn't need software updates or any bloat, it's a power supply. And you can be sure if it was mainstream, software and updates would be required or things would be unstable and they'd randomly remove features you use in the next version that you didn't want to begin with.

I find a nice stable decent thing, and I stick with it.

View attachment 252509

You seem to be very forward thinking and modern, I however am still using Windows 7 Pro.
Greg

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

I wonder about this topic as well. I'm in year 7 of operations, 98,829kwh PV and 81,584 inverter AC consumed so far.

Good news - My Midnite Classics seem rock solid, and have not had any issues. The Classics have been around a loooong time, pretty much unchanged, and seem solid. My Batriums are performing well - oldest is 7rs. I've seen MPP Solar equipment run 9yrs on a channel.

Bad news - My AIMs 12,000w 240v/120v inverter died at 5yrs / 23,000hrs of operation. AIMS refused to help. I got it repaired by local electronics shop that tested/replaced 'weak'/'bad' caps on the control board - e.g. got lucky? but wasn't cheap! So capacitors may be a weak spot?!? - all electronics have capacitors I'm guessing.

When the AIMs died, I tried to learn more about expected life spans in terms of years or hours of operation but the info isn't clear. Keep in mind that a 'lifetime warranty' in Oregon is defined as (only) 7 yrs legally so warranty is not necessarily a reliable metric for realistic yrs of operation and depends on the company responding.

For my part, my thinking has evolved into having a plug/play backup plan / equipment. This has led me to go cheaper so I can afford backup equipment. For example, I bought an SGP 12,000w as my backup to the AIMS 12,000w and I have an extra Midnite Classic and extra Batrium.

 

[fatjay]

You seem to be very forward thinking and modern, I however am still using Windows 7 Pro.
Greg

I like the start menu in win8

 

[Dooug]

Just replaced outback 3524 and flex maxx 60 that where installed in 2009. Switched 48 volt lithium otherwise there was no issues with the 15 year old equipment.

 

[robby]

You seem to be very forward thinking and modern, I however am still using Windows 7 Pro.
Greg

I have a few computers at Home but the one that I use for my Ham Radio Gear is also Windows 7 Pro.
My other PC's are mostly Win 10 Machines running an GUI overlay Prg that makes them look like Win7.
I have been messing with Win11 and I really do not like it at all. It's like giving Bill Gates the Keys to your house and then having to ask him if you can use the Bathroom.

 

[robby]

Just my 2 Cents but I think most of the newer HF Inverters that are of high quality might give people 12 Years of service, but that won't be trouble free service as I just don't see these Inverter Fans running for 12 years.
The lower end HF Inverters are probably going to struggle to make it to 8 Years. I suspect that DIY replacing Electrolytic capacitors and Fans is going to be a big thing in 5-6 years time.

 

[robby]

I like the start menu in win8

I hate the Start Menu on Win 8 and above.
It's like an Advertising billboard rather than a control menu.

 

[Sparks-n-Splinters]

I have a few computers at Home but the one that I use for my Ham Radio Gear is also Windows 7 Pro.
My other PC's are mostly Win 10 Machines running an GUI overlay Prg that makes them look like Win7.
I have been messing with Win11 and I really do not like it at all. It's like giving Bill the Keys to your house and then asking him if you can use the Toilet.

I'm with ya on the windows 11! I recently had to pack my 2006 HP desktop running windows XP as it doesn't travel well. Got a cheapo Lenovo for surfing the web using my personal hotspot. What a piece of crap! If I continually ignore the updates it gets glitchy and finally freezes up to force me to restart so it can update. Microsoft has it set to continually "report to the mother ship".

 

[Sparks-n-Splinters]

Just my 2 Cents but I think most of the newer HF Inverters that are of high quality might give people 12 Years of service, but that won't be trouble free service as I just don't see these Inverter Fans running for 12 years.
The lower end HF Inverters are probably going to struggle to make it to 8 Years. I suspect that DIY replacing Electrolytic capacitors and Fans is going to be a big thing in 5-6 years time.

I've been debating what @Philip53 said about cooling fans. A simple temp sensor set lower than the inverter fan switch on a strategically placed PC fan or two could potentially gain years longer on the inverter at far cheaper cost to repair the cooling fan.

I actually did this on my portable 12v system to pull heat off the victron 100/20 (no fan, only passive cooling). works wonders for keeping the temp inside the box cooler and it only added about $10-15 to the build cost.

 

[Recovering EE]

Well that's because chevy. My ford truck is from 2004 and has 250k miles on it and still runs like a top. I use it for hauling heavy crap regularly. But they're mechanical devices with moving parts, oils and fluids. Look at ev's by comparison in terms of maintenance.

Electronics are much more robust/durable, there's no moving parts. Even my desktop computer is 8 years old. I have servers that I just retired after 10 years of service because they're no longer relevant.

And ideally, your solid state inverters and AIO's won't be beating at 100% 24/7. if so, you didn't properly plan. I have 18k inverter capacity and am right now using 3822w of power. Across 6 inverters, if that's balanced properly, that's a 20% load. Overnight, it's less than half that. Even at peak consumption of 13k, that's still 70% per inverter, and only for brief periods.

Yes, we live in a world of waste. It's a shame really. Tech is moving so fast, it's outdating machines very rapidly.

My philosophy on *any* electronic device from China is to only run it at 50-60% of it's "rated " capacity.

I put "rated" in quotes, because, in my experience, Chinese equipment rarely has a design margin above ratings, and often doesn't even meet the "rated" specs.