123 Smart BMS

[Dzl]

Which is as useful as a chocolate teapot, I would like to set my temp cutoff at 2c and stop discharging before I got to 0c and also have the charge relay still active so the battery can charge back up.

The exact opposite, I want to stop discharging at around 2c (hopefully I will not get there as I have a temp sensor start to warm the Winston cells at 6c via heat pads) but I would still want the charging to still be active if mains/solar was available.

@CliveS Unless you have a special use case, I think you may have got some wires crossed here. For LiFePO4, minimum charging temperature (usually 0*C) is higher than the minimum temperature for discharging.

In what scenario would you require or want to cut charging at a lower temperature than discharging?

Could anyone share with us the super secret price for a 16cell 48v setup?

Too funny, I knew my question would be answered with a question, I gave enough information to get an answer!!. No one wants to just blurt out that it’s VERY expensive, kinda like buying a fancy car, if you have to ask how much, you probably can’t afford it..

@Kingdaddy it feels like you think this is some sorta 'gotcha question' that proves a point. When in reality you asked a question, then got upset when someone asked clarifying questions to fill in the details not included in the original comment. If like you said, you are positive you gave enough information to answer the question, why haven't you just gone and answered your own question?

To draw a silly analogy, your conduct is like walking into a pizza place and going up to random customers asking how much a pizza costs, and when they start to ask "what size, and how many toppings, any extras" cutting them off and saying "see I knew it! nobody wants to tell me the real price, expensive! I gave you all the information you need to answer my question" and somehow feeling like you proved a point.

I for one definitely consider the 123BMS quite expensive, I also find the pricing of it, and other high end BMS' a little less intuitive compared to commodity BMS'. But I don't think its some sort of conspiracy to hide the price from me. Its just a modular, semi-customizable system, not a one size fits all solution.

That said, it would be nice to have some reference points for the rough cost of a complete 4S, 8S, 16S basic system. Same holds true for other semi-modular BMS' like Chargery and Electrodacus.

There are many simple, cheap-ish BMS' if you want simplicity of pricing and product.

 

[Michael B Caro]

@CliveS Unless you have a special use case, I think you may have got some wires crossed here. For LiFePO4, minimum charging temperature (usually 0*C) is higher than the minimum temperature for discharging.

In what scenario would you require or want to cut charging at a lower temperature than discharging?




@Kingdaddy it feels like you think this is some sorta 'gotcha question' that proves a point. When in reality you asked a question, then got upset when someone asked clarifying questions to fill in the details not included in the original comment. If like you said, you are positive you gave enough information to answer the question, why haven't you just gone and answered your own question?

To draw a silly analogy, your conduct is like walking into a pizza place and going up to random customers asking how much a pizza costs, and when they start to ask "what size, and how many toppings, any extras" cutting them off and saying "see I knew it! nobody wants to tell me the real price, expensive! I gave you all the information you need to answer my question" and somehow feeling like you proved a point.

I for one definitely consider the 123BMS quite expensive, I also find the pricing of it, and other high end BMS' a little less intuitive compared to commodity BMS'. But I don't think its some sort of conspiracy to hide the price from me. Its just a modular, semi-customizable system, not a one size fits all solution.

That said, it would be nice to have some reference points for the rough cost of a complete 4S, 8S, 16S basic system. Same holds true for other semi-modular BMS' like Chargery and Electrodacus.

There are many simple, cheap-ish BMS' if you want simplicity of pricing and product.

I took it as you describe, but in retrospect I think Kingdaddy has a point. I didn't look back in the thread for context and shouldn't have posted the reply that I did. It probably would have stuck in my craw a bit too if someone I had done the same to me. Not sure if I would have done anything about it but I don't think he was too far out of line calling me on it.

 

[Dzl]

I took it as you describe, but in retrospect I think Kingdaddy has a point. I didn't look back in the thread for context and shouldn't have posted the reply that I did. It probably would have stuck in my craw a bit too if someone I had done the same to me. Not sure if I would have done anything about it but I don't think he was too far out of line calling me on it.

Maybe I'm still missing some context too, this is the first post from him in this thread and only context I see:

Could anyone share with us the super secret price for a 16cell 48v setup?

-

 

[Michael B Caro]

Maybe I'm still missing some context too, this is the first post from him in this thread and only context I see:

Oh...LOL
I still havent looked back at the rest of the thread....I assumed from what he said he had been posting in the thread.
Oh well. Shit happens, and if you are lucky you don't step in it.

 

[CliveS]

WHY would yopu want to STOP DISCHARGING at 2C ??? Our BMS that we use STOP CHARGING at 2C BUT we will DISCHARGE until it hits 7% regardless of the temp outside .. ITS CHARGING below freezing that kills the cells -- NOT DISCHARGING

Yes you are correct, I was so frustrated with the lack of 2 low temp cutoff I replied without thinking and checking what I wrote.
Your correct and I wish to have exactly what you stated, stop charging around 2c and continue to discharge ( and power up some 12v heater mats) but the BMS triggers both charge and discharge relays which is absolutely useless in this situation and as you say, it is lame.

 

[Kingdaddy]

Just show me anywhere where I got upset. Laughable, was just asking a simple question, that i knew would be answered, with links and everything I need to know about it, the developer is communicating on this thread, if he wants to sell his product, I’m sure he would reach out to me, all this other crap is just that, crap. So move on.

 

[Bob B]

@Kingdaddy Maybe it would be good to start your own thread ... and if you are interested in the 123-smart-bms which was the original subject .... reference @123Sebastiaan in the thread.
When I looked back thru the thread it kinda seems like the thread was hijacked.

 

[ghostwriter66]

 

[Dzl]

If you click on my username, there is a button that says ignore, click that to prevent any future:

In·con·se·quen·tial BS
adjective

1. not important or significant.
2. Not helpful, don’t respond to anything I post

You are asking for help (and beyond this, asking for others to do the legwork for you) and then get angry when someone asks a simple clarifying question. I find this pretty immature and counterproductive.

Almost without exception people get along pretty well here, and are for the most part pleasantly helpful. You've managed to find conflict with multiple people in multiple threads in your first dozen posts.


I don't see anything secretive about BMS123 pricing.

Just going to repeat this bit, hit ignore, and leave it at that:

If like you said, you are positive you gave enough information to answer the question, why haven't you just gone and answered your own question?

There are many simple, cheap-ish BMS' if you want simplicity of pricing and product.

 

[CliveS]

To answer the question concerning prices of 4/8/16 cell BMS123 setups.

The Complete set is for a 4 cell setup, you get a Begin Board, and an End Board and 2 x Single Cell Board Modules. ($324.50)

For an 8 cell setup you need to add 4 extra Single Cell Modules at $17.92 each, for 16 cells you would need and extra 12 modules added to the Starter Kit. Basically number of cells minus 4 and a starter kit.

I have the 4 cell Complete Set on my 12v setup and a BMS123 Smart relay, expensive but it has been rock solid in my motorhome except when I woke up one morning to no power even though I had almost full batteries (8 x 160ah Winstons in a 2P4S) as they think it is a good idea to trigger both charge and discharge relays at the TempMin setting which is stupid.

I did ask @123Sebastiaan if he could look into having a TempMin1 for turning off the charge relay at 2c and a TempMin2 for turning off the discharge (except I got the logic round the wrong way as @ghostwriter66 pointed out) but he has no been back since his initial couple of posts.

 

[Dzl]

To answer the question concerning prices of 4/8/16 cell BMS123 setups.

The Complete set is for a 4 cell setup, you get a Begin Board, and an End Board and 2 x Single Cell Board Modules. ($324.50)

For an 8 cell setup you need to add 4 extra Single Cell Modules at $17.92 each, for 16 cells you would need and extra 12 modules added to the Starter Kit. Basically number of cells minus 4 and a starter kit.

I have the 4 cell Complete Set on my 12v setup and a BMS123 Smart relay, expensive but it has been rock solid in my motorhome except when I woke up one morning to no power even though I had almost full batteries (8 x 160ah Winstons in a 2P4S) as they think it is a good idea to trigger both charge and discharge relays at the TempMin setting which is stupid.

That would work out to roughly:
$325 for 12v
$435 for 24v
$540 for 48v

I believe that this does not include relays or any way to switch chargers and loads out of the box correct?

 

[CliveS]

That would work out to roughly:
$325 for 12v
$435 for 24v
$540 for 48v

I believe that this does not include relays or any way to switch chargers and loads out of the box correct?

Correct, I have the BMS123 connected to a Votronic 60/40/430 so can stop charging but the discharge goes via one of the BMS123 Dual Relays

 

[Dzl]

Correct, I have the BMS123 connected to a Votronic 60/40/430 so can stop charging but the discharge goes via one of the BMS123 Dual Relays

If I understand correctly the BMS123 (like the SBMS0 or Chargery) can either use relays (like the dual relay they sell for $100) to control charging/discharging, or interface with compatible devices directly and forego the relay, is this your understanding too?

On the GWL website they list the amperage rating in 3 different places, and cite different amperage numbers each time for the same relay which is a little disconcerting
(1) 12v = 120A, 24v = 60A
(2) 12v = 120A, 24v = 120A
(3) 12v = 120A / 100A cont, 24v = 120A / 80A cont, 48v = 60A / 40A cont

Factoring in the cost of the relay:
12V: $425
24V: $535
48V: $640

As an aside: Just looked up your Voltronic, that is a very cool looking component. Alternator, Shorepower/Mains, and Solar charging all in one! How do you like it so far.

 

[CliveS]

If I understand correctly the BMS123 (like the SBMS0 or Chargery) can either use relays (like the dual relay they sell for $100) to control charging/discharging, or interface with compatible devices directly and forego the relay, is this your understanding too? Yes On the GWL website they list the amperage rating in 3 different places, and cite different amperage numbers each time for the same relay which is a little disconcerting (1) 12v = 120A, 24v = 60A (2) 12v = 120A, 24v = 120A (3) 12v = 120A / 100A cont, 24v = 120A / 80A cont, 48v = 60A / 40A cont Factoring in the cost of the relay: 12V: $425 24V: $535 48V: $640 As an aside: Just looked up your Voltronic, that is a very cool looking component. Alternator, Shorepower/Mains, and Solar charging all in one! How do you like it so far. I gave up trusting GWL when I read a blog post from them stating that 4.2v was correct voltage for initial Lifepo4 setup, granted it was dated several years ago but they should have updated it with a correction pointing out the new thinking of 3.65v, and 2 years ago another blog from them now stating 3.8v and recently 3.65v so you see why you found 3 incorrect amp numbers. If you go to the 123electric.eu site (the makers of the 123BMS and 123Relay it states) Each relay can switch 120A @ 12VDC / 100A @ 24VDC / 120A @ 240VAC. So the 3 options you gave above from GWL are ALL wrong! The Voltronic has been solid, my only complaints are if it is turned off by the BMS to stop charging the Lifepo4 it also stops charging the motorhome lead acid starter battery which is not ideal as I would like to charge the lead acid via solar in the winter. It also gives a reduced power charge if the temp goes below 0c, I would like to turn it off completely and whilst writing this I have thought of a way to do so at a temp of my choosing so thanks for getting me to think "out of the box" on that , I may now have a way of getting around the 123BMS low temp stupidity of cutting both charge and discharge relays at TempMin!

 

[berksrunner]

I had 123smartbms. Very glad that I’ve now switched to overkill bms. I’ll accept it as my fault, but I never got 123 to be fully operational. And while I was able to assemble it properly, to expect the end consumer to do serious soldering is a bit absurd if you ask me, after paying so much for the product.

 

[Dzl]

I had 123smartbms. Very glad that I’ve now switched to overkill bms. I’ll accept it as my fault, but I never got 123 to be fully operational. And while I was able to assemble it properly, to expect the end consumer to do serious soldering is a bit absurd if you ask me, after paying so much for the product.

What needed to be soldered? And what was difficult to get working?

 

[berksrunner]

What needed to be soldered? And what was difficult to get working?

Their BMS consists primarily of a collection of circuit boards (in lieu of a central control unit) that must be wired to the terminals of each cell. The end consumer must solder leads to each of these circuit boards -- they don't even provide the wire!

 

[berksrunner]

Also: The bms requires additional small gauge solid copper cabling to properly connect -- again, you must supply this yourself.

The worst thing about the install process is that teeny tiny dip switches must be flipped several times to properly configure the BMS. And when I say tiny, I had to use my iphone camera as a magnification device. I ended up wearing the switches out just trying to flip them. It's a total mess.

 

[berksrunner]

I just finished installing the Overkill BMS -- so much better to have a fully functional product protecting my batteries!

 

[Dzl]

I just finished installing the Overkill BMS -- so much better to have a fully functional product protecting my batteries!

JBD Smart BMS seems like a pretty solid budget oriented BMS, and Overkill Solar seems like a pretty solid and straight up seller. Glad you're happy with it so far.

Regarding your impression with the 123BMS, thanks for sharing your feedback/impression. Do you recall what version of their BMS you were using? If the current version still requires soldering and provisioning extra components, sounds like its not very well suited for beginners or those seeking simple systems. But I wonder if these issues have been improved in recent versions? As for the dip switches, could this configuration not be done in the bluetooth app?