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12V 3300W DC-to-AC (240V) Giandel Inverter - off-grid grounding questions.

GeeGee

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Joined
Oct 16, 2023
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37
Location
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Hi All,

I've read the many Giandel and Grounding threads on here for insight, but wanted to start a fresh thread for focus. I've also read the grounding download manual (which was very helpful), but I feel like I can't meet some of the specifications it mentions for 'Grounding Systems with Both AC & DC' for stationary systems (see attached image).


My System

See attached image for my off-grid, standalone system. This system will not be connected to GRID or any other type of existing electrical system.

This inverter has the usual terminals:
  • DC positive terminal, DC negative terminal
  • 2 x AC outputs
  • A ground screw connection (see image)

Giandel Manual

The Giandel manual says the ground screw is already connected to the ground wire of the AC output receptacle, which I confirmed via a multimeter continuity test between ground screw and AC ground receptacle. The manual says the ground screw should be used to ground the inverter to a ground wire, which will vary for vehicles (chassis), boats (ground system) and fixed locations (earth).

But here's my conundrum -------> I don't have a way to ground to earth, and I'm not in a vehicle or a boat. I'm off-grid in an isolated cabin/shed.

Grounding

So what I've done is ground the inverter to DC negative (using 4 AWG copper wire).

My thinking here is that this will act as a safety if something goes wrong (e.g. the inverter shorts to the frame of the unit)....the assumption being that ground current will flow directly to DC negative, which will eventually trip one of 2 x inline ANL fuses on the DC battery positive cables.

Other things to note:
- My DC system is not grounded - as in DC negative is not connected/bonded to earth.
- The Giandel manual says it has short circuit protection (see attached image).
- The inverter is not N-G bonded as far as I can tell (I could be wrong). The manual makes no mention of it (that I could see) and I don't get multimeter continuity between L-G and N-G. I also tested voltage between L-N, L-G and N-G and got ~240V, ~120V and ~120V, respectively.


Given all of the above, my questions are:
  • Does grounding the inverter to DC negative offer the safety protection that I've assumed it does? If not, why not?
  • Will sending AC ground current to DC negative be an issue? If so, why?
  • Does it matter if my DC system is not grounded itself? PS, I've read many PROS and CONS around this and there seems to be a slight general consensus that DC grounding is not an ultimate show-stopper.
  • What are the downsides of not being able to directly ground the inverter on the AC side to earth?
  • Is there anything else I should do to improve my grounding safety?

Thanks in advance guys.

Regards
George


1724720996642.png

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1724722094481.png

1724730090595.png

1724730176668.png
 
"
  • What are the downsides of not being able to directly ground the inverter on the AC side to earth?
There could be stray capacitive or resistive conduction from the outside conductive surface and the AC circuit, e.g. microwave oven with a stainless steel exterior, lamps on metal bases, etc. The risk of not grounding the 3rd wire in the plug is that this outside surface could float at a voltage significantly away from ground potential, bringing the chance of a shock if someone were touching both a grounded object and the appliance in question. I have gotten shocked in this way in the past, once from a fluorescent light fixture that had the grounding wire internally disconnected. The metal fixture floated at half the line voltage, ~55 VAC, which was enough to give me a shock when I was touching it to turn it off, but while I was bracing myself on another surface that was grounded.

You could argue that it wouldn't have been a problem if the other object hadn't been grounded, but this was actually a workplace where such grounding was mandatory.
 
Your connection to the DC negative does nothing for safety since that is to keep the inverter shell at the same potential as the vehicle metal chassis. The purpose in a vehicle is to keep you from touching the vehicle and the shell of the inverter and getting a shock. Depending on the inverter that can cause internal damage and let out magic smoke. It should be removed.

You need to get a ground rod and wire from the store and bring it in to your cabin area. If the soil is to rocky to drive it vertically then dig a trench as deep as you can slanted as far down as you can. Then attach the wire to the end and leave about 6in of rod exposed while the rest of the rod slants down. You need as deep as you can because the soil here is super dry and not great for grounding.

The wire should be 6awg bare copper and attaches to the rod with what looks like a brass loop with a stainless steel screw out the side of it.

This wire comes into your cabin and attaches to the ground screw of all your equipment - the victron MPPT have a screw on the side of the heatsink - usually the left side, silver colored. This needs a ground wire along with the screw on the inverter.

Also, the breaker style I see in the picture with a lever is notorious for high heat during operation and bursting into flames. If it isn't blue sea system, buss, bussman, eaton you should toss them for use in car audio. The real ones of this type for the current being carried is almost 2 in thick in order to break the AIC of a current arc.

I would either get regular DC breakers from Midnite solar or other reputable companies and skip the cheap style.

You don't state your system voltage for the batteries, if it is 12v it seems like the cables are undersized between the inverter and battery

Those anderson connectors may seem like a good idea, but unless they are unplugged and plugged periodically they will create a high impeadance connection over time. If you don't have a good reason for them it is better to skip it and bolt your connection together with a terminal bar, especially if it is the battery wire that all the high current will flow through. If those are for your batteries the breakers should be a fuse since it acts faster.

So, more details on the overall system and a picture of the size/bms capability too. Also wire sizes just in case they are undersized
 
"
  • What are the downsides of not being able to directly ground the inverter on the AC side to earth?
There could be stray capacitive or resistive conduction from the outside conductive surface and the AC circuit, e.g. microwave oven with a stainless steel exterior, lamps on metal bases, etc. The risk of not grounding the 3rd wire in the plug is that this outside surface could float at a voltage significantly away from ground potential, bringing the chance of a shock if someone were touching both a grounded object and the appliance in question. I have gotten shocked in this way in the past, once from a fluorescent light fixture that had the grounding wire internally disconnected. The metal fixture floated at half the line voltage, ~55 VAC, which was enough to give me a shock when I was touching it to turn it off, but while I was bracing myself on another surface that was grounded.

You could argue that it wouldn't have been a problem if the other object hadn't been grounded, but this was actually a workplace where such grounding was mandatory.


Thanks for the reply and providing examples of why AC grounding is important. :)

I googled "stray capacitance" (see image) as I'm not familiar with this concept:

"Stray capacitance is the unintentional manifestation of electric charge in a circuit or non-capacitive components."

I always thought that if the frame of an appliance became energized, that it was due to a short circuit fault. But if I understand 'stray capacitance' correctly, that is not always the case.

So I'm guessing that in such a situation, an RCD wouldn't offer any protection. Correct?



1724806881318.png
 
First of all, you don't need a wire (e.g. a short) to get AC energy somewhere else.

Capacitors block DC but pass AC, so you can capacitively couple energy from somewhere to somewhere else even with no DC connection. The energy is passed as electric field.

Similarly, inductors can pass AC from place to place without any DC connection, and indeed this is how transformers work. (But, this isn't the only example.) As you probably know, there is not necessarily a DC connection between the primary and secondary of a transformer, and yet (AC) current passes between them.

An RCD should still work in either case, though, because of Kirchhoff's law. The sum of currents into a node has to equal the sum of currents out of a node. If current is going out of the hot into the stainless steel microwave housing, and then through the housewife, and then to ground, shocking her, then that current isn't coming back into the neutral wire and there will be a current difference between what left and what came back. The RCD ought to detect this difference and break the circuit. It doesn't matter if said shocking current was a short (i.e. a direct DC connection), or a capacitive leakage or an inductive leakage - in any case it didn't come in back through neutral and is therefore "missing current" which should trip the RCD.
 
I forgot to mention, in a transformer the energy is passed as a magnetic field, unlike capacitors in which energy is passed as an electric field. The third way is passing the energy as a current, i.e. as actual charges moving. The last of these requires a conductor; the first two do not.
 
Safety earthing is all about making sure that you can't touch two conductive objects at the same time, that have a voltage difference between them, and could pass enough current through you for a shock.

This gets somewhat complicated with off-grid systems, as the whole system is self-contained and powered by PV and batteries. It's not obvious how that circuit would be completed to administer an electric shock, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. Damp gets into things in sheds and cabins. A GFCI/RCD on your inverter's AC output is good insurance (bearing in mind that they need a neutral to ground bond to work, and if your inverter doesn't have one, you can add it yourself)

Even if you don't have an absolute earth reference, like a rod in the ground, connecting all of your conductive objects together ("equipotential bonding" in EE jargon) still delivers a net benefit in safety. If they are connected together, voltages can't appear between them to shock you.

The DC side of your system is a conductive object that you can touch too. If you use DC powered appliances as well as AC ones, you should consider grounding the battery negative terminal, in case the insulation between the DC and AC sides of your inverter fails, which isn't completely impossible with a cheap inverter used in a damp location (but check your inverter manual to see if this is allowed)

In my system I have done the following:

Connect battery negative, inverter's ground stud, and inverter's AC neutral all to a ground bus. (The inverter manual didn't say I couldn't do that.)
Fit RCD to inverter output, after the neutral to ground bond.
The building is a shipping container, so I also connected the metal container to the ground bus.
The ground beneath the building is a few inches of gravel and aggregate, and concrete underneath that, so I didn't bother trying to drive a ground rod.
 
Safety earthing is all about making sure that you can't touch two conductive objects at the same time, that have a voltage difference between them, and could pass enough current through you for a shock.

This gets somewhat complicated with off-grid systems, as the whole system is self-contained and powered by PV and batteries. It's not obvious how that circuit would be completed to administer an electric shock, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. Damp gets into things in sheds and cabins. A GFCI/RCD on your inverter's AC output is good insurance (bearing in mind that they need a neutral to ground bond to work, and if your inverter doesn't have one, you can add it yourself)

Even if you don't have an absolute earth reference, like a rod in the ground, connecting all of your conductive objects together ("equipotential bonding" in EE jargon) still delivers a net benefit in safety. If they are connected together, voltages can't appear between them to shock you.

The DC side of your system is a conductive object that you can touch too. If you use DC powered appliances as well as AC ones, you should consider grounding the battery negative terminal, in case the insulation between the DC and AC sides of your inverter fails, which isn't completely impossible with a cheap inverter used in a damp location (but check your inverter manual to see if this is allowed)

In my system I have done the following:

Connect battery negative, inverter's ground stud, and inverter's AC neutral all to a ground bus. (The inverter manual didn't say I couldn't do that.)
Fit RCD to inverter output, after the neutral to ground bond.
The building is a shipping container, so I also connected the metal container to the ground bus.
The ground beneath the building is a few inches of gravel and aggregate, and concrete underneath that, so I didn't bother trying to drive a ground rod.
I'm going to digest this and get back to you......thank you for taking the time to reply, much appreciated for now.
 
Your connection to the DC negative does nothing for safety since that is to keep the inverter shell at the same potential as the vehicle metal chassis. The purpose in a vehicle is to keep you from touching the vehicle and the shell of the inverter and getting a shock. Depending on the inverter that can cause internal damage and let out magic smoke. It should be removed.

You need to get a ground rod and wire from the store and bring it in to your cabin area. If the soil is to rocky to drive it vertically then dig a trench as deep as you can slanted as far down as you can. Then attach the wire to the end and leave about 6in of rod exposed while the rest of the rod slants down. You need as deep as you can because the soil here is super dry and not great for grounding.

The wire should be 6awg bare copper and attaches to the rod with what looks like a brass loop with a stainless steel screw out the side of it.

This wire comes into your cabin and attaches to the ground screw of all your equipment - the victron MPPT have a screw on the side of the heatsink - usually the left side, silver colored. This needs a ground wire along with the screw on the inverter.

Also, the breaker style I see in the picture with a lever is notorious for high heat during operation and bursting into flames. If it isn't blue sea system, buss, bussman, eaton you should toss them for use in car audio. The real ones of this type for the current being carried is almost 2 in thick in order to break the AIC of a current arc.

I would either get regular DC breakers from Midnite solar or other reputable companies and skip the cheap style.

You don't state your system voltage for the batteries, if it is 12v it seems like the cables are undersized between the inverter and battery

Those anderson connectors may seem like a good idea, but unless they are unplugged and plugged periodically they will create a high impeadance connection over time. If you don't have a good reason for them it is better to skip it and bolt your connection together with a terminal bar, especially if it is the battery wire that all the high current will flow through. If those are for your batteries the breakers should be a fuse since it acts faster.

So, more details on the overall system and a picture of the size/bms capability too. Also wire sizes just in case they are undersized

Hi @robbob2112

Thanks for the reply....it is very much appreciated.

I've created a schematic diagram with some additional detail that you asked for. Please let me know if this detail isn't sufficient enough.

Please note my system design logic and why I designed my system as such.

FYI, the circuit breakers are from 'Enerdrive', a well-known power, inverter, battery, camping and off-grid systems company. These are not the generic eBay or Amazon or AliExpress breakers that you see tested in YT vidoes. Then again, I'm sure these Enerdrive breakers are manufactured in China (but I can't say for sure). I do know Enerdrive is a reputable brand here in Australia.



1725016350041.png
 
Last edited:
Safety earthing is all about making sure that you can't touch two conductive objects at the same time, that have a voltage difference between them, and could pass enough current through you for a shock.

This gets somewhat complicated with off-grid systems, as the whole system is self-contained and powered by PV and batteries. It's not obvious how that circuit would be completed to administer an electric shock, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. Damp gets into things in sheds and cabins. A GFCI/RCD on your inverter's AC output is good insurance (bearing in mind that they need a neutral to ground bond to work, and if your inverter doesn't have one, you can add it yourself)

Even if you don't have an absolute earth reference, like a rod in the ground, connecting all of your conductive objects together ("equipotential bonding" in EE jargon) still delivers a net benefit in safety. If they are connected together, voltages can't appear between them to shock you.

The DC side of your system is a conductive object that you can touch too. If you use DC powered appliances as well as AC ones, you should consider grounding the battery negative terminal, in case the insulation between the DC and AC sides of your inverter fails, which isn't completely impossible with a cheap inverter used in a damp location (but check your inverter manual to see if this is allowed)

In my system I have done the following:

Connect battery negative, inverter's ground stud, and inverter's AC neutral all to a ground bus. (The inverter manual didn't say I couldn't do that.)
Fit RCD to inverter output, after the neutral to ground bond.
The building is a shipping container, so I also connected the metal container to the ground bus.
The ground beneath the building is a few inches of gravel and aggregate, and concrete underneath that, so I didn't bother trying to drive a ground rod.

Very interesting.

In my system I have done the following:

Connect battery negative, inverter's ground stud, and inverter's AC neutral all to a ground bus. (The inverter manual didn't say I couldn't do that.)

Some silly questions:
  • Is your inverter's ground stud for AC or DC? Asking as I'm trying to relate back to my specific setup, i.e. the ground screw/stud on my inverter is for the AC side.
  • Why did you connect the AC neutral to the common ground bus? What is the reasoning behind doing such a thing?
 
Some silly questions:
  • Is your inverter's ground stud for AC or DC? Asking as I'm trying to relate back to my specific setup, i.e. the ground screw/stud on my inverter is for the AC side.
AC, same as yours.
  • Why did you connect the AC neutral to the common ground bus? What is the reasoning behind doing such a thing?
It makes my RCDs work.
 
You need to get a ground rod and wire from the store and bring it in to your cabin area. If the soil is to rocky to drive it vertically then dig a trench as deep as you can slanted as far down as you can. Then attach the wire to the end and leave about 6in of rod exposed while the rest of the rod slants down. You need as deep as you can because the soil here is super dry and not great for grounding.

The wire should be 6awg bare copper and attaches to the rod with what looks like a brass loop with a stainless steel screw out the side of it.

This wire comes into your cabin and attaches to the ground screw of all your equipment - the victron MPPT have a screw on the side of the heatsink - usually the left side, silver colored. This needs a ground wire along with the screw on the inverter.
I don't know if they are 'well known' in the US, but here in Australia dry ground is often encountered (especially inland where I am- where we might go for 3/4 of the year with literally zero rainfall at all) and coupled with a SWER supply line like whats found locally, means a good earth is a must- or the voltage here can drop by 50v or more (burning out motors)

So almost all here use 'chemical ground rods', which use watered salts around the earth stake (bentonite)


https://www.nvent.com/en-us/erico/products/efsecrh101t4u is the type of thing I am talking about
and they certainly seem to be available in the US...
https://www.nvent.com/en-us/erico/where-to-buy

(for those that haven't come across it (likely) a SWER is a powerline- but it literally only has one wire at the top...)
1725017471879.png
That's the one that runs out the front of my place- visible above the Merc...

SWER means Single Wire, Earth Return- basically there is an Live wire, and nothing else- it relies on the ground itself for the 'neutral' return line- so as you can imagine, conductivity for the neutral/earth rod is a big thing here...
A poor earth rod isn't just a safety thing in this case, it puts everything in your house at risk of damage from low voltage, so you can imagine we take it quite seriously

(newcomers to the area have to be told about 'watering the stake' every 3 months- failure to do do can lead to fridges/freezers/AC- basically anything with an electric motor burning out...)
Expensive lesson to learn...
 
(newcomers to the area have to be told about 'watering the stake' every 3 months- failure to do do can lead to fridges/freezers/AC- basically anything with an electric motor burning out...)
Use SWER in a desert, it'll be fine they said... I thought this was an American thing and didn't realise Australia used it.
In the Scottish Highlands and other sparsely populated areas, we still use 2 wires, but up the voltage to 33kV. I don't know why we don't use SWER as everything is damp all year round.
 
Use SWER in a desert, it'll be fine they said... I thought this was an American thing and didn't realise Australia used it.
In the Scottish Highlands and other sparsely populated areas, we still use 2 wires, but up the voltage to 33kV. I don't know why we don't use SWER as everything is damp all year round.
LOL- the yanks never know where things come from...
;-)
SWER was invented in New Zealand back in 1925- and was extensively used in Australia by the 1930's...

1725019288836.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

AFAIK, SWER didn't make it to the US and Canada until after WW2
 
Your connection to the DC negative does nothing for safety since that is to keep the inverter shell at the same potential as the vehicle metal chassis. The purpose in a vehicle is to keep you from touching the vehicle and the shell of the inverter and getting a shock. Depending on the inverter that can cause internal damage and let out magic smoke. It should be removed.

You need to get a ground rod and wire from the store and bring it in to your cabin area. If the soil is to rocky to drive it vertically then dig a trench as deep as you can slanted as far down as you can. Then attach the wire to the end and leave about 6in of rod exposed while the rest of the rod slants down. You need as deep as you can because the soil here is super dry and not great for grounding.

The wire should be 6awg bare copper and attaches to the rod with what looks like a brass loop with a stainless steel screw out the side of it.

This wire comes into your cabin and attaches to the ground screw of all your equipment - the victron MPPT have a screw on the side of the heatsink - usually the left side, silver colored. This needs a ground wire along with the screw on the inverter.

Also, the breaker style I see in the picture with a lever is notorious for high heat during operation and bursting into flames. If it isn't blue sea system, buss, bussman, eaton you should toss them for use in car audio. The real ones of this type for the current being carried is almost 2 in thick in order to break the AIC of a current arc.

I would either get regular DC breakers from Midnite solar or other reputable companies and skip the cheap style.

You don't state your system voltage for the batteries, if it is 12v it seems like the cables are undersized between the inverter and battery

Those anderson connectors may seem like a good idea, but unless they are unplugged and plugged periodically they will create a high impeadance connection over time. If you don't have a good reason for them it is better to skip it and bolt your connection together with a terminal bar, especially if it is the battery wire that all the high current will flow through. If those are for your batteries the breakers should be a fuse since it acts faster.

So, more details on the overall system and a picture of the size/bms capability too. Also wire sizes just in case they are undersized
2 Thumbs up!
 
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Hi @robbob2112

Thanks for the reply....it is very much appreciated.

I've created a schematic diagram with some additional detail that you asked for. Please let me know if this detail isn't sufficient enough.

Please note my system design logic and why I designed my system as such.

FYI, the circuit breakers are from 'Enerdrive', a well-known power, inverter, battery, camping and off-grid systems company. These are not the generic eBay or Amazon or AliExpress breakers that you see tested in YT vidoes. Then again, I'm sure these Enerdrive breakers are manufactured in China (but I can't say for sure). I do know Enerdrive is a reputable brand here in Australia.



View attachment 240218


That looks good, except the breaker in the line to the PV panels isn't correct. In an off-grid non-mobile install it should be a disconnect for both pos and negative at the same time. i.e. a DC isolator ... Yes I know there was a big hoopla about don't use isolators after a bunch of roof fires... there is a video on the topic. The video was put out to say don't use "redundant" isolators, i.e. if the inverter has a built in isolator you are discouraged but not forbidden to use another isolator. The majority of the rooftop isolator fires were caused by incorrect mounting and water intrusion... it was dumb to require them mounted on the roof verse ground - i.e. easily reachable above 30" below 72"

The key is to use a quality isolator like the IMO brand - plastic housing that is self extinguishing and UV resistant. Spring loaded internal bus bar so it snaps the make and break of contacts. This also cleans the contacts as they wipe through the connectors.


The chemical ground rod is a thing on this side of the pond, but generally only in super dry areas, usually they know in the area what will be required ahead of time... 2 ground rods, rods embeded in the concrete pad the building is sitting on, or chemical. I have even read about tower sites where they dig out a large area and drive an array of 40+ rods all cold welded to a large copper cable laid in a large spiral, then covered in cement and then dirt and connected to the 4 legs of the tower. This was from the motorola spec from grounding transmitter towers back in the 80s.

The main thing is it makes and breaks both contacts at the same time. You can alternativly use a DC breaker that has magnetic arc chutes and is 2 pole.


Cement makes a very good conductor to ground.
Breaking just the positive contact is for vehicles only because the negative side is connected to the chassis of the vehicle. You can disconnect both on a vehicle, but it is not required.
 
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This wire comes into your cabin and attaches to the ground screw of all your equipment - the victron MPPT have a screw on the side of the heatsink - usually the left side, silver colored. This needs a ground wire along with the screw on the inverter.
I noticed you didn't mention bonding/connecting DC system to the grounding system......was that on purpose? If so, how do you reconcile this with the Grounding system guide off this forum (see screenshot below)? Be keen to hear your thoughts :)

Source: https://diysolarforum.com/resources/grounding-made-simpler-part-2-stationary-systems.161/


1725076085791.png
 
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That looks good, except the breaker in the line to the PV panels isn't correct. In an off-grid non-mobile install it should be a disconnect for both pos and negative at the same time. i.e. a DC isolator .

This is interesting.

So I googled DC isolator Vs circuit breaker

I'm a little confused (very likely due to my ignorance on this topic)......my simpleton thinking is if a Circuit Breaker stops the flowing of electric current through the circuit, then how is that not the same thing as isolating the DC system from the solar panels? I mean, you either have current flowing or you don't.

Maybe the actual question is ----> what are the negatives of of using a Circuit Breaker in my situation? Are you saying I can still get some kind of electrical shock from the solar panels even with the circuit breaker switched off?


1725076770807.png
 
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In my system I have done the following:

Connect battery negative, inverter's ground stud, and inverter's AC neutral all to a ground bus. (The inverter manual didn't say I couldn't do that.)
Fit RCD to inverter output, after the neutral to ground bond.
The building is a shipping container, so I also connected the metal container to the ground bus.
The ground beneath the building is a few inches of gravel and aggregate, and concrete underneath that, so I didn't bother trying to drive a ground rod.

Your system as described seems to line up with Figure 2 in the image below........is that a fair call or not?


1725077589980.png
 
The breaker of the style you have doesn't have a long path or arc chutes to break the dc arc. Also breaking only one line from pv panels can leave the other line .

The isolator breaks both lines at the same time in 3ms. They are spring loaded so the bus bar snaps between the contacts and wipes clean the contacts and it can survive the arc from turning off under load 1500 times and 8500 times unloaded. The plastic is self extinguishing so no possibility of flames from it.
 
Hi All,

So I reached out to Giandel with a few questions (see email screenshot below).

Giandel confirmed the inverter is N-G bonded. I thought it wasn't. :oops:

The tests I used to determine a N-G bond was to measure voltage between L-N, L-G, N-G. This test was based off the YouTube video below.

I did this test once more. In summary, there are my results:

AC Output (results apply to both AC output sockets):
Live to Neutral ~240V
Live to Ground ~109V
Neutral to Ground ~126V

I assumed these measurements indicated no neutral to ground bond. The YT video states that L-G should be reading 240V if a N-G bond exists (10m:40s).

Not saying Giandel support is wrong, but my results say differently (or am I interpreting things incorrectly)?

FWIW, I also did a continuity test between AC Neutral and AC Ground, which showed no continuity (see image below).

Cheers




1725925201561.png

Voltage Tests

1725928138042.png


 

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Maybe they intend N-G to be connected, but I'm with you, the data you have taken supports them not being connected. Maybe your unit had a defective wire or a bad connection and their QC missed it - or maybe their customer facing people don't talk to their engineers.
 

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