12V or 24V for a 2000W inverter with induction cooktop

alfaeric

Solar Enthusiast
Simple one-way inverters are more vunerable to damage due to poor power factor loads.

Inverters, generators, and transformers are really rated for VA, not watts. At load PF =1.0 the two being equal.

Since losses goes as I^2 * R, the higher peak currents for poor PF to supply average power with short bursts increases losses. This is common to both simple one-way and hybrid bi-directional inverters.

I believe EU standard EN61000-3-2 requires any appliance that draws greater then 75 watts to have good power factor. This is why you see computer power supplies now having PF correction circuitry. CFL and LED light bulbs can sneak in below regulation power limit. Of course, any EU regulation is not that simple with many other conditions like frequency harmonic content and line noise.
How does one shop for good power factor?
 

alfaeric

Solar Enthusiast
A question to the group about the set up....

Is there a reason why someone could not just tap into just 12 of the 24V battery? If you have two batteries in series, one spot is 12V, right? Is the fact that the discharge would be that unbalanced be a problem?

That would allow the 12V system for the nominal things, and 24V to the inverter for the stove.

edit- no need to answer that- this article explains why it's a bad idea- https://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/extend battery life.pdf and also mentions an equalizer and converter as solutions.
 
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bobdelso

Solar Enthusiast
A couple pizzas difference in price is not ridiculous- it’s just more expensive.

For his intermittent high demand cooking, he’s at the upper echelon for 12V for cooking imho.
But why add 24V-12V conversion for his stated bulk of the time use? One more point of failure.

Nothing wrong with 24v but the argument against 12V doesn’t hit all the “practical” points very firmly in his case imho.
For me if it’s 24V vs 12V I lean 12V: if I’m traveling somewhere and have a failure what’s most likely going to be available ‘locally’ to cob up a temporary solution if something fails? I can’t speak for Europe but stateside 12V is still there.

As far as the comment on Giandel pure sine inverters: clone? Maybe. Some complaints, yes. By and large customer service is applauded, and for inexpensive inverters? Plenty of good reports on it so in that price range it’s not that risky. I for one have been using a 1200W daily for 3-1/2 years +.
Its not just a couple of pizzas.

Its $100-300 saved on the MPPT charger.
$30-50 on the wiring
$100 for a BMS
 

bobdelso

Solar Enthusiast
Unable to refill LPG bottles in the EU?
Stay with gas and upgrade the 12v truck system you already have to power less energy hogging appliances.
Its best to buy a universal set of adapters and most EU stations can't fill a US propane tank.
 

Zwy

Solar Addict
Yes, I know that. Even if I would be building a 12V system I wouldn't draw more than 2000W from it. Before when I thought I would need 3600W for the induction I was only considering 24V for this exact reason. But yes, it's always a good reminder.
Before I would go with an induction cooktop, I'd go with a DC powered refrigerator. Then a mini split ac unit.

For cooking, gas is preferable as that will last a long time with just cooking. And I have a white gas campstove I can use outside too.
 

filippomasoni

Solar Enthusiast
Its not just a couple of pizzas.

Its $100-300 saved on the MPPT charger.
$30-50 on the wiring
$100 for a BMS
Yes, 350 just for the MPPT, so probably around 500 total.
Its best to buy a universal set of adapters and most EU stations can't fill a US propane tank.
I've never used LPG or propane other than the small canister for camping, so I have no idea how adapters work and availability. I know pretty much all campers have that, but most of the world overlanders opt for induction because it can be hard if not impossible to find in some places. If the US system is different than the EU, I could in theory swap it when I get to the US/Canada, but what about Mexico and South America?

Before I would go with an induction cooktop, I'd go with a DC powered refrigerator. Then a mini split ac unit.

For cooking, gas is preferable as that will last a long time with just cooking. And I have a white gas campstove I can use outside too.
I will go with a DC compressor refrigerator, that's a must of course. The Vitrifrigo works either 12V or 24V DC. AC is a luxury that I can't afford due to space and I can definitely live without it, traveling to cooler locations in summer like the mountains.

I'm not excluding gas at all, that will save me a lot of money for sure as at that point a 12V 280ah battery will be enough and a small 300W inverter will be plenty for just the odd thing I can't charge with DC or if I want to bring my external monitor which only draws 25W. But I have to find the space to accommodate the various types of gas canisters found around the world. If you guys have any website where I can find that info please let me know, even if this is off topic I guess 😅
 

Steve_S

Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
I can say that in Canada & USA getting Propane is as easy as getting to a Gas Station most have Pre-Filled tanks, many can refill tanks too. Pricing bounces like a YoYo though. I took apart a written off RV Trailer (2005 ish model) and it had a Dometic 12VDC/120VAC - Propane Fridge. Surprisingly quite an efficient unit too, a bit larger than a "student fridge" but not the quite size of an "Apartment" fridge.

Would it not be possible to locate a place that has used / wrecked Camper Trailers and maybe score a good used (recovered / recycled) RV Type Fridge, I would imagine something similar would be available in the EU but maybe that would be 12VDC/220VAC/LPG ?

Now you mention travelling intercontinental with this Rig which I think is a cool plan.. Something I'd consider IF I was 30 years lighter LOL. which also means who knows what kind of power will be available where you go, and of course will LPG be available even... I have no idea where you will be going, so. I think I would focus on the Global Power systems being more often 210-240VAC @ 50Hz and when in North America or elsewhere some form of converter with "conditioner" (some places are a tad dubious). This listing for power systems worldwide is quite handy.
 

filippomasoni

Solar Enthusiast
As far as I know, trivalent fridges (DC-AC-gas) are not very efficient. A DC compressor fridge is much better and that's what I'm going to get.
I can consider gas only for cooking which requires little gas and containers can last a few months probably. I know it's doable around the world but requires carrying many adapters and having to search for a place that sells or refills those. Need to carry at least two bottles and takes a lot of space and weight. It's also usually a good thing to have that accessible from outside, so also requires a side door (with more complexity).
Cooking with electricity is going to work everywhere and it would be much easier to build out as well.

A far as shore power I'm not going to rely on that as I prefer being in the wild (the reason I'm building a 4x4 camper with a big battery and solar panels) but I'll build in a battery charger that accepts AC 100-240V 50-60Hz for worldwide coverage, like this one: https://shop.gwl.eu/Chargers-6V-to-36V/Mean-Well-charger-12V-24-3A-for-LFP-cells.html

It's getting very difficult to decide though and I need to order battery cells next week to hopefully get them by the end of October.
 

filippomasoni

Solar Enthusiast
Have a look at this website. This is a guy from UK, who is currently in Canada. He has been through Africa, South America and as I said, he is currently in Canada. Lots of information on this site https://www.tuckstruck.net/
Rick
I know the guy and I've read so much on his website, very useful stuff. He's got a gas system and that's exactly why I think it's doable, but I would still prefer the simplicity and less space/weight of the induction.
 

bobdelso

Solar Enthusiast
I've never used LPG or propane other than the small canister for camping, so I have no idea how adapters work and availability. I know pretty much all campers have that, but most of the world overlanders opt for induction because it can be hard if not impossible to find in some places. If the US system is different than the EU, I could in theory swap it when I get to the US/Canada, but what about Mexico and South America?

I could run an induction cooktop but I'm going propane. I like to cook, and 1500-1800 watts for an inverter ran for 30-45 minutes will use a ton of power.

It's pretty easy to run a flexible LPG line from the tank to whatever stove your using. I know a few european countries have unique gas fittings for their LPG tanks. You can buy something like this and your tank can be filled wherever.
 

filippomasoni

Solar Enthusiast
I'm going to consider both options, although I'm still leaning towards induction. So I'd like to better understand the power factor issue

Simple one-way inverters are more vunerable to damage due to poor power factor loads.

Inverters, generators, and transformers are really rated for VA, not watts. At load PF =1.0 the two being equal.

Since losses goes as I^2 * R, the higher peak currents for poor PF to supply average power with short bursts increases losses. This is common to both simple one-way and hybrid bi-directional inverters.

I believe EU standard EN61000-3-2 requires any appliance that draws greater then 75 watts to have good power factor. This is why you see computer power supplies now having PF correction circuitry. CFL and LED light bulbs can sneak in below regulation power limit. Of course, any EU regulation is not that simple with many other conditions like frequency harmonic content and line noise.

Like some other people would like to know, how can we shop for a good induction cooktop?
Do we need to check for a power factor correction circuitry? Is that enough to have a good working AC appliance?
 

BobR

Solar Enthusiast
Hello,
I'm designing the electrical system for a truck camper I'm going to build in the future and I'd like to order the 280ah cells since delivery time is about 3 months from China to Italy.

I need to decide between a 24V and 12V system.

Setup idea:
Solar 600W
Battery: 6720Wh 280ah 24V or 560ah 12V
Daily energy consumption: 2500Wh (worst-case scenario, I estimated 900Wh for cooking and 8h of computer use)

Since I would like to have an induction cooktop I was planning on having a big inverter and so I was decided on 24V, but I recently found a few models of cooktop that can set a maximum power draw of 1600W, 2000W, or 3600W and I'm certain 1600W will be enough for me for 2 zones. So I'll go for a smaller Giandel 2000W inverter.
At this point does it still make sense to have a 24V system or I could go with the simpler 12V?

The truck is 12V and sourcing 12V components will be easier around the world.
The cost will be a bit higher for the 12V, I'll spend more for the MPPT and a bit less for the DC-DC charger and inverter. How I planned the layout I'll have everything electrical close by with less than 1m of cables, except lights and fans, so the only longer cables are going to be for the panels and alternator.

What are your thoughts?

Also unrelated do you know where to source flexible solar panels in Europe? I was going to go with GWL but they recently discontinued their 300W version.
I have no experience with induction cookers but have read that many will not work with modified sine wave inverters.
 

12VoltInstalls

Solar Addict
many will not work with modified sine wave inverters.
So many things that have electronic controllers don’t care for mod sine inverters. My first foray with inverters burned a computer, monitor, and made a couple other things die 20 years ago.
I’ll only buy true sine now. Much lesssss$$ than new fridges and monitors…
 

BobR

Solar Enthusiast
I do not know how powerful of a cooker you require but your questions have made me wonder if induction cooking on my boat would be the way to go. When out at anchor I cook mostly on deck with grill but in marina can't use open flame device on deck.

I have found some low powered cookers (800 watt and down) but don't know how they would perform. As they are inexpensive I am thinking of buying one to try at home.
 
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