1975 Airstream Rebuild

[AirStreamJoe]

Hello everyone, been watching a ton of Will Prowse's videos regarding inverter/charger/battery setups and really enjoy his information, not sure how I landed here, but I'm happy I did!

I purchased a 1975 31 foot Airstream a few years ago and have just finished building the new frame from 316L Stainless. Now I am moving on to constructing the electrical system. Keep in mind I only have electrical experience from reading the internet for the last 4 months and talking to other folks and watching a zillion YouTube videos. I have selected all the parts for the Airstream, perhaps someone with a bit more electrical knowledge could help me get this baby put together. I am a computer programmer as a career and have programmed some custom software for my Nvidia Jetson TX2 arm based computer in order to have automated control over my level tank level, lights on / off / dimming, coach orientation via gyroscope, gps, water pumps, window tint, self leveling, temperature readings, as well as some security features.

I don't need this to be a 'can run off grid forever machine' the solar just supplements my 'quite time' while I work on the computer mainly.. I could even use the Bose headphones while I program with the gen-set charging up for a bit if required.. but I just wanted to state this doesn't need to be a sustainable 'off-grid' setup, but able to run the loads requested for the times requested without shore power 100% of the time for periods of about 5 days max ( a work week ). Also bear in mind I will never run every electrical item at the same time.

The following are the items I have considering putting into the system, the generator, as well as a list of electrical appliances that need to be able to be run and their estimated run times. I know I am missing from the list -- fuses, and cuttoffs as well as the wiring / gauge as well as potentially more..

"Tow Vehicle"
2017 Ford F250 /w 6.0 PowerStroke 2 Heavy Duty Alternators ( I do not think they're made for lithium specifically tho )

"The Electrical System Components"
LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager -- ( for alternator charging? Should I use a victron product, do they have one? )
Victron Energy Inv/Chgr, Quattro, 12V 5000W 200A -- ( should I use 2 smaller 24V3000Watt in split phase to get my 220V outlet?? )
Victron Color Control GX
6 x Renogy 100 Watt 12 Volt Extremely Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panel
Victron SmartSolar MPPT 250/100 - Tr Solar Charge Controller 250V 100A with Bluetooth
BMV-712 Smart
VE.Bus Smart Dongle

"Battery Bank"
10 x Valence U27-12XP ( 1380 amp hours total -- but used, so lets say around 1000 to low ball it )

"The Generator"
Cummins Onan 2500 LP -- Propane Powered

"Electric Devices To Be Run with estimated run times"

MTI Industries 30-442-P-WT Propane Gas Alarm -- 90mA @ 12V -- 24 hours a day
weBoost Drive 4G-X RV 470410 Cell Phone Signal Booster -- 8 Watts @ 110V -- 24 hours a day
Nvidia Jetson TX2 - ARM based super-computer -- 10-12 Watts @ 12V -- 24 hours a day
Vitrifrigo DW250IXN4 Upper Refrigerator & Lower Freezer -- 85 watts @ 12V
or
-- 85 watts @ 110V -- 24 hours a day
LG 34BK95U-W UltraFine Monitor -- 70 watts @ 110V -- 8 hours a day
2x ABSOLUTE SERIES™ LED Flexible Strip - 99 CRI - 16 ft Reel -- 3.75 amps @ 12V -- 3 - 5 hours per day
Splendide WD2100XC White Vented Combo Washer/Dryer -- 1300 watts @ 110v -- 2 hours every other day
Breville the Barista Express Espresso Machine -- 1600 watts @ 110v -- 20 mins a day
2x Dometic B59516.XX1C0 Brisk II Polar White Air Conditioner -- 1725 watts @ 110V -- location dependent
Maxxair 0007000K MaxxFan Deluxe Fan with Remote -- 60 watts @ 12V -- location dependent
UP6/E Water Pressure Pump -- 120 watts @ 12V -- 30 mins day
Desktop Computer -- 1000 watt(max) @ 12V -- 2 hours a day
Mr. Stream SAH3000 ( Steam Shower ) -- 3000 watts @ 220v -- 20-30 mins a day
Lineal Adjustable Base -- 250 watts @ 110v -- 10 mins a day
Incinolet Marine Toilet -- 1800 watts @ 110v -- hour a day

Please let me know if I need a larger battery bank? According to the data sheet for the 12V5KW it's perferred battery bank size is between 800–2400 amp hours, looks like I"m sitting at 1380, less losses because these are used, and I have not had the chance to load test them yet I'm picking them up on Sunday, but if I need more let me know

Would I need to run 2 of the inverters in "Split Phase" mode in order to get my 220v or could I get a 220v and split it into 110v outlets??

Is my battery bank large enough to run these items for these times??

Do I need to get special alternator for my Ford F250 Diesel Tow Vehicle?

Is my MPPT controller large enough to allow me to expand my solar system in the future if I can get my solar awning constructed ( supposedly will equal to 6 more of these panels )?

This is a complicated ask and I am more than willing to pay for some assistance if it comes to that. Cheers folks and appreciate any feedback.

 

[Justin Laureltec]

@AirStreamJoe, I'll look at the equipment list in more depth a little later, but I wanted to quickly mention two things: first, just so you're not disillusioned when you get it running, the Victron Quattro is 5kVA, not 5kW; maximum continuous wattage (depending on whether the load is resistive or capacitive, of course) will be 4kW at 25C, derating all the way to 3kW at 65C. I know a lot of sellers online list these as 5kW units and I don't know whether they just don't understand the difference or if they're deliberately misrepresenting the unit's ratings, but either way now you're at least aware of it, in case you need to adjust your equipment selection.

The second thing I'll mention is that those Valence cells are not drop-ins; they have internal monitoring of a sort and a degree of internal balancing, but they don't have a BMS, which you absolutely must have both to protect your investment as well as your safety, so I want to make sure you've accounted for that and have a plan. It's worth noting that Valence isn't a Victron-approved battery bank (for several reasons) so you lose a lot of your Victron technical support options as soon as you connect the Quattro to the Valence cells. Will it work? Sure, I have customers who have done it, and for whom it's working... but it's something to take into account. It doesn't void the warranty on the Quattro, but it definitely limits your options.

Also, while I'm here thinking about it, you'll also need a Victron MK3-USB Interface to program your Quattro - I see you have the Smart Dongle on your list, but that's just a bluetooth remote - you can't program anything except the AC Input Current Limit through it. To set your charging rate and voltages and everything else you still need the hardwired MK3.

I'll come back and have a closer look later and add any additional thoughts.

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Thank you Justin I think you just answered my question as to if i need 2 of those Victron Quattros for 2 reasons, 1 as you stated, they scale based on several factors, etc, load, etc that I did not infact take into account. Also in order to get the 240V for the steam generator ( they use 1 gallon per 20 mins which is important to me in a boondocked situation, plus they're amazing.. lol ).

I was going to pick up these Valence Batteries this weekend from a guy in New York, he is trying to say I don't need the BMS because they have the internal BMS -- and that because the battery bank i'm using is in just 1 string of 10 in parallel that the batteries will self-balance? -- I don't think he's misleading me, but perhaps I don't understand something as you are indicating, and need to understand that. Also I saw a fellow that has constructed, what looks like a "U-BMS-LV" integration over UCAN with the Victron Series, you can use google to translate it, I have sent him a list similar to this page so that he may help?

 

[AirStreamJoe]

oops misposted here not sure how to delete..

 

[Justin Laureltec]

I was going to pick up these Valence Batteries this weekend from a guy in New York, he is trying to say I don't need the BMS because they have the internal BMS -- I don't think he's misleading me, but perhaps I don't understand something as you are indicating, and need to understand that. Also I saw a fellow that has constructed, what looks like a "U-BMS-LV" integration over UCAN with the Victron Series, you can use google to translate it, I have sent him a list similar to this page so that he may help?

From Valence:
"Our battery modules are energy storage devices that can be configured in a variety of ways to meet the particular requirements of an application. To do so requires a properly configured Valence Battery Management System (BMS) for the system parameters and contactors. Generic or non-Valence BMS units are not suitable for use with Valence batteries. For safety reasoning, configuring of a Valence BMS needs to be performed by Valence or its authorized reseller. We do not support Valence products that have not been purchased directly from Valence or through an approved reseller."

So, no, either the guy doesn't understand what a BMS actually is and what it's for, or he's misleading you... can't tell which, of course. I too have heard of guys developing BMS units that will interface directly with Valence cells (the link you posted appears to have a genuine Valence BMS, though, which is the first I've heard of someone getting hold of one outside of the medical/industrial industry that they're sold to). I can't independently confirm any of the reports though, and again... eh it goes back to support and warranty. There are ways around everything, but whether or not you might void your warranty through trying those ways is another story.

As for the Quattro issue... depending on your loads, I'd pretty strongly suggest putting two MultiPlus 3kVA models in parallel rather than your single Quattro... two Multis are cheaper than one Quattro, too...

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Can the MultiPlus be wired directly to the generator and then also accept the shore power as well? I didnt think it could was the only reason I thought I needed the Quattro version? Or would I just wire ONE for shore input acceptance, and ONE to the generator?

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Can the MultiPlus be wired directly to the generator and then also accept the shore power as well? I didnt think it could was the only reason I thought I needed the Quattro version?

No, the MultiPlus only has a single 50A transfer switch (the Quattro has two, you're right) so you'd need to use an AC Input Selector like the Blue Sea 8032 or a Sterling manual transfer switch or something along those lines.

 

[AirStreamJoe]

No, the MultiPlus only has a single 50A transfer switch (the Quattro has two, you're right) so you'd need to use an AC Input Selector like the Blue Sea 8032 or a Sterling manual transfer switch or something along those lines.

What about wiring one's AC input into the generator, and having the other one's AC input from shore plug*?

 

[Justin Laureltec]

What about wiring one's AC input into the generator, and having the other one's AC input from shore plug*?

Haha no, unfortunately that's not how that works... since both units are in parallel, they need an identical input source, thus the existence of the AC source selector switches and manual transfer switches. Of course, there are also plenty of ATS units, external automatic transfer switches that would do the job for you... not sure what they're running in price though, I'd have to imagine they're pretty expensive because that's actually the main reason why the Quattro costs so much more than the Multi: dual transfer switches.

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Haha no, unfortunately that's not how that works... since both units are in parallel, they need an identical input source, thus the existence of the AC source selector switches and manual transfer switches. Of course, there are also plenty of ATS units, external automatic transfer switches that would do the job for you... not sure what they're running in price though, I'd have to imagine they're pretty expensive because that's actually the main reason why the Quattro costs so much more than the Multi: dual transfer switches.

You're a great source of info sir -- I also assume you can NOT use 1 Quattro with a MultiPlus ?? As that would seem an ideal combo ( if possible ) here edit: done a bit of research and as you've indicated that is just the main and really only difference, seems that the dip switches and the software are available for both.. you sir, just saved me like $3000 I think... appreciate that..!

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Otherwise like you said, an ATF with 2 Multi's is still quite a bit cheaper than what I had in mind, which is amazing.. do you lose any software functionality such as ability to control generator starting when the battery bank reaches X threshold in a 2 MultiPlus setup?

 

[Justin Laureltec]

You're a great source of info sir -- I also assume you can NOT use 1 Quattro with a MultiPlus ?? As that would seem an ideal combo ( if possible ) here

Well, yes and no - you definitely can use both devices in a single setup, you just can't have them paralleled - by which I mean, they can't be networked together in operation - they'd both have to be in standalone operation. To parallel-network Victron units, they have to be identical devices running identical firmware. I'd also add that although you could still control both through the CCGX, the main display of the CCGX wouldn't show the operation of both units - not enough icon space. But you could go into the device list in the CCGX menu and control the on/off/charger only state of each unit, as well as the AC Input Current Limit, just like you could normally.

As for software functionality loss in parallel operation, nope... there's an (literally one) additional step to programming them when putting two units in parallel, but otherwise it all stays the same. Programming the auto-gen start/stop functionality can be a bit of a bear depending on the generator - not sure if you've looked at it already, but there's a whole bit on it here: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/auto-generator-start-stop:start

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Well, yes and no - you definitely can use both devices in a single setup, you just can't have them paralleled - by which I mean, they can't be networked together in operation - they'd both have to be in standalone operation. To parallel-network Victron units, they have to be identical devices running identical firmware. I'd also add that although you could still control both through the CCGX, the main display of the CCGX wouldn't show the operation of both units - not enough icon space. But you could go into the device list in the CCGX menu and control the on/off/charger only state of each unit, as well as the AC Input Current Limit, just like you could normally.

As for software functionality loss in parallel operation, nope... there's an (literally one) additional step to programming them when putting two units in parallel, but otherwise it all stays the same. Programming the auto-gen start/stop functionality can be a bit of a bear depending on the generator - not sure if you've looked at it already, but there's a whole bit on it here: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/auto-generator-start-stop:start

Yes sir, I did see that part about how you may have to build yourself a little 'signal sender' to the onan unit using the relay, which I think I should be able to get done. Last question I hope. If you DID use both units in 'stand-alone' mode, could you bridge the 2 110v still to make a 220V outlet?? seems a little hacky, but i'm not sure why it would not work, unless something to do with no common ground? I guess that 220V was my main reason for having 2, and no particular reason I can think of to need to have them in parallel, but perhaps I don't know all the benefits..

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Yes sir, I did see that part about how you may have to build yourself a little 'signal sender' to the onan unit using the relay, which I think I should be able to get done. Last question I hope. If you DID use both units in 'stand-alone' mode, could you bridge the 2 110v still to make a 220V outlet?? seems a little hacky, but i'm not sure why it would not work, unless something to do with no common ground? I guess that 220V was my main reason for having 2, and no particular reason I can think of to need to have them in parallel, but perhaps I don't know all the benefits..

Weeeelllll no, I wouldn't do that, then you get into lots of potential issues since they're not talking to each other to balance the phase correctly... that's just asking for problems, and the kind of problems that are potential fire/electrocution issues... I'm cool with a little hack from time to time, but that's pushing it.
It sounds to me like you may need a MultiPlus and an Autotransformer... have you looked at these yet?

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Weeeelllll no, I wouldn't do that, then you get into lots of potential issues since they're not talking to each other to balance the phase correctly... that's just asking for problems, and the kind of problems that are potential fire/electrocution issues... I'm cool with a little hack from time to time, but that's pushing it.
It sounds to me like you may need a MultiPlus and an Autotransformer... have you looked at these yet?

Nope, but doing that now!
edit: As usual I think you're on the money...

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Nope, but doing that now!
edit: As usual I think you're on the money...

Well, I'm a Victron Product Expert (currently ranked #7 in the world) and a moderator/key contributor to the Victron Technical Support Community, so, like... I'd better be pretty close to the money at least, if not directly on it, if I want to keep my paycheck

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Alright well I've been busy at work.. and I've managed to set up ( its not 100% ) i need to fabricate an actual chasis for it instead of this scrap wood I've used for now... but.. here is some of the basic work..

Here is the UI I've put together to show the information in a nice pretty thing to look at. ( Not finished, need some aggregation, alarms, etc )



Some sample data being collected by my program..


Here is the temporary setup I have going on at the moment...



Here is the solid-works CAD illustration of the aluminum tube fabricated version..

Ran a shitload of tests and determined this to be the best setup because all of the wires are exactly the same length and it almost always draws and charges at the same rate.. each 2 batteries are connected in pairs in parallel, then from B1 positive and B2 negative to the bus bars...

kinda like this tho this dudes wires aren't accurately lengthed the wiring is similar..

 

[AirStreamJoe]

So I dont know much about all this shit but I learn really quickly... here is 6hours worth of data collected at about 1 data point per 2 seconds.. ( sorry thats the limit of the diagnostic protocol, I'm working on a CANbus implementation for faster polls, but this is still a lot of good data )

If you notice you'll see when I turn on the 1000 Watt grow light, all the batteries ( 10 of them ) 138 Amp Hour Valence U27 XP12's shoot up to NEARLY the same amp draw, but one guy is slightly behind, and he drops off slowly after that.. then after I turn off the inverter, after 1 hour.. I notice that same dude.. is now drawing from the rest of them..... wtf? he didnt even give much.... Any insight?

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Looks like the baby is stepping into line with the others... this was first usage in a long time.. I'm going to get them down to lowest one 11.2v and let them sit for a bit... then charge them back up... Then do the exact same test again... if I see the same issues, I'll move that 'problem cell' if you will... into a different position in the battery bank and repeat the process, to eliminate that as a potential issue.. and curiosity since no one else seems to have any input -- I'll just use this as my little nerdy blog

 

[AirStreamJoe]

Also here is a little bit better layout with accurate wire lengths etc so you can see how its actually wired together..