200 AMP Pouch Cells?

Tecnodave

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I have a Powerwall which has apparently 200 amp LFP Pouch cells, it is a Fution Powerwall sold by Best Sun New Energy Co. of China.
its 16 cell 52.1 volt 200 a.h. I’ve posted in “BEST SUN POWERWALL” and ”FUTION POWERWALL” but I don’t really seem to get any responses down there, maybe too buried. Photo’s do the best justice....I don’t care about the inverter/charger/MPPT controller that is included in the unit, or even the maybe DALY 16S BMS that is in there. I want to add LFP banks to my existing system. I’m thinking two Overkill 100 amp 8S BMS’s so I have two separate batteries.I have also posted quirks on MidNite forum and solar-electric, Lots of guesses but no one has said they have ever seen anything like this. I’ve had this since April and haven’t done much with it as I do not have 230 volts supply nor any 240 volt loads to test it with.......it is 230 volt single phase......NOT 120/240 split phase as we use here in USA. I can charge it with 240 volts but there is no neutral on the output.......besides which all the electronics are Chinese.......far inferior to the MidNite, Exeltech, and MagnaSine which I am using in my 24 volt off grid system

My spelling and wording is much better than Appleautocorrectmyspelling.....
 

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Tecnodave

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As you can see there are 4 stacks of ? “pouch cells” in plastic frames. Each stack contains 4 “pouches”. These cells are 9 1/4 inches by 11 1/4 inches by 1 inch thick each cell. I researched the number seen on one of the cells and it comes back as a 50 a.h. LFP pouch cell for e.v. Use.....this was found on Alibaba.com. There are many others in same format of cell from 6 a.h. To 80 a.h. but nothing this large. Have you ever seen anything like this. Nobody has an idea of just what I have here. Any help would be appreciated

tecno
 
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Tecnodave

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It has been claimed by others that these are 50 a.h. cells, afaik 50 a.h. Cells are approx 5 X 7 inches. Look at these photos of my cells........my hands are XL, I can’t cover 1 cell with my hand
 

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BenCos18

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It has been claimed by others that these are 50 a.h. cells, afaik 50 a.h. Cells are approx 5 X 7 inches. Look at these photos of my cells........my hands are XL, I can’t cover 1 cell with my hand
The model number defn seems to tell me they are 50Ah cells
I'd be suprised if they are 200Ah cells tbh...generally the model number is pretty accurate
I wonder whether they did a 16s 4p pack
(4 cells in parell and then 16 in series)
 

Tecnodave

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Again look at the photos, there are 4 cells in each plastic frame and 4 frames.......if they were 50 amp pouches, there would be 64 cells in the unit........there are only 16 cells in this 51.2 volt 200 a.h. pack

50 amp pouch cells as viewed on Alibaba are 5” X 7“ , these are huge at 10” by 11”

Look again at all the pouch cells on Alibaba, they all have that same number, WX12I3250, from 8a.h. pouches all the way up to the 80 a.h. cells that can be found on websites.....not only that but LiPo pouch cells have the same number....

Please note: the Letter/number on the cells is WX12I3250.......NOT WX1213250...
...the 5th digit is a I (letter) not a 1 (number)

the only way there could be 50 amp cells is that there would be 4 cells in each pouch........highly unlikely....and there would be impressions in the cell pouches where the 50 amp pouches were placed together......there are not

The manufacturers listing for this unit is 51.2 volts, 200 a.h. 10,240 watt hours.......you can not get that from 16 ea. 50 a.h. cells.

Ive said it before and I say it again, if I’m wrong I will eat crow and post it.....pictures are not fabricated....they were shot with iPad and uploaded as is, I have no photo editing software......
 
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Tecnodave

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Here is the unit on Amazon


This is a newer version , as listed on Amazon there are three variants, 12 volt 2.56 kw/h, 24 volt 5.12 kw/h and 48 volt 10.24 kw/h
Look closely at the Amazon ad for all three units, look at the pictures, the 12 volt and 24 volt units are a bit thinner than the 48 volt unit. My 48 volt unit looks exactly like the 24 volt unit, the screws that attach the front panel attach on the sides, the current 48 volt unit has a slightly different front panel, the screws attach from the front.

I am taking this as a rev. 1 vs rev.2 situation.......the specs listed say 32 cells in the current 48 volt unit, mine has only 16 cells......so what capacity cells are they?

Read the specs, look at the photos
 

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BenCos18

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I actually gave no idea tbh
I will defn do some research and try and find out though
 

Tecnodave

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I think it is a bit strange having these in hand and no one has seen anything like this, many posts here, Solar-Electric forum and forum.midnite, absolutely nothing on the internet, not research papers, not product, nada......I’m no quitter, they will be hooked up someway here today. I do have 240 volts in my big shop to charge but no 230 volt loads to test. I do have a 240 volt mig welder but it does require 120/240 and probably would be damaged by 230 volts with no neutral, not willing to risk my Miller...
 

Steve_S

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Dave, I gave you a lengthy reply on the Midnite Forum in the Lithium sub-forum.

BTW: Pouch Cells can be any dimension and they vary a LOT. Pouches are prefered for several uses because their sizing is easy to manipulate by manufacturers to suit buyer / contract specs. BYD Blade Packs are technically Pouch Cells in a "Modular Package". CATL's CTP (Cell to Pack) Battery Packs are also a variant of Pouch Tech. MANY companies make them.
 

Tecnodave

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Steve_S,

I did read your reply, very valuable information in there thank you. I still have the problem with the size of those pouches, either one of two things.......the sellers are selling fairy dust.......these really are 200 a.h. Pouch cells, I’m not skilled enough to know. But I do know how to find out....The unit is fully charged....yes it does work...it does charge correctly...but I do not have a suitable 2-3 kw 230 volt load. My iCharger does not have enough capacity/time to do a battery this big....it will time out, then it loses its data. I think the timeout is 2 hours and that is not near long enough to load test this battery. At this point all I need is a dump load and timer

Let me tell you something about Chargery that you may not know......there is some kind of connection between Chargery and Junsi.....the manufacturer of the iCharger....look closely at the Chargery dual 6S Charger. then look at the Junsi iCharger i406. and tell me that they are not the same unit......peek at the Chargery 680B then at the Junsi iCharger i106B. and see the similarities, they are the same unit, well at least they work with each other in some way...
 

Tecnodave

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Well now I know what WX12I3250 is.....it’s not a part number it’s the MSDS for Lithium (material safety data sheet)

that explains why multiple cells have the same part number, both LFP and LiPo cells carry this same number

yahoo could not tell me that, I googled it, came right up
 

BenCos18

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Well now I know what WX12I3250 is.....it’s not a part number it’s the MSDS for Lithium (material safety data sheet)

that explains why multiple cells have the same part number, both LFP and LiPo cells carry this same number

yahoo could not tell me that, I googled it, came right up
Haha
That explains it lol
 

Fran-Wh

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WX12I3250 is A123's cell model number, It's a 3.2V, 50Ah LFP cell. The WX seems to refer to A123's parent company-Wan Xiang Group.
The "200Ah pouch cell" could well be a cell group consisting of 4 parallel connected cells. I saw a battery pack design guide from A123 systems showing how to parallel their 20Ah cells to achieve higher Ah capacity. Connecting 4x 50Ah cells in parallel you'll get the "200Ah" big cell.
1623306230685.png1623311956227.png
 

Tecnodave

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I have the unit in possession.....there are 4 stacks of cells that are less than 4 inches thick, if as you suggest each cell is 4 cells then minimum stack thickness would be 187 mm. thick, 7.08 inches..less the sepetators......so no cigar, it is not possible to compress 187 mm. into 101.2 mm. space.......Now there could be 2 ea 100 a.h. pouch cells as the manufacturer states, quoting Best Sun the cells are configured 2P, 16S. for a total capacity of 1,024,000 ma/hr. Do the math.......

PLEASE NOTE....i have found over 100 cell types that have that same number.....including 18650 cells......AND ...LILO, LIPO and NMC cells that are not LFP.....with the same WX1213250 or WX12I3250 designator.....look closely at the 5th digit, in some data the 5th digit is a number 1, other places its a capital I (letter)

The largest LFP pouch cells that i have seen are 80 a.h., same size....thats not far from 100 a.h.

Could be that the Chinese assembler of this unit is fudging the numbers on this.....

Have you ever seen a large battery rated in ma./hr. This manufacturer does....RATED CAPACITY 1,024,000 ma/hr at 51.2 volts......
 

schmism

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so its show and tell? We are debating what they could be? Was there something wrong with testing them and call them what the test results say knowing the amount of "fluff" put on labels for capacity?

in other words, do we care if they are labled 1000ah cells? if they supply 150ah then thats what they are.

For the record most of the blue AL cased LFP cells from china are just an AL case around some LFP (soft) pouch cells.
 

Fran-Wh

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I have the unit in possession.....there are 4 stacks of cells that are less than 4 inches thick, if as you suggest each cell is 4 cells then minimum stack thickness would be 187 mm. thick, 7.08 inches..less the sepetators......so no cigar, it is not possible to compress 187 mm. into 101.2 mm. space.......Now there could be 2 ea 100 a.h. pouch cells as the manufacturer states, quoting Best Sun the cells are configured 2P, 16S. for a total capacity of 1,024,000 ma/hr. Do the math.......

PLEASE NOTE....i have found over 100 cell types that have that same number.....including 18650 cells......AND ...LILO, LIPO and NMC cells that are not LFP.....with the same WX1213250 or WX12I3250 designator.....look closely at the 5th digit, in some data the 5th digit is a number 1, other places its a capital I (letter)

The largest LFP pouch cells that i have seen are 80 a.h., same size....thats not far from 100 a.h.

Could be that the Chinese assembler of this unit is fudging the numbers on this.....

Have you ever seen a large battery rated in ma./hr. This manufacturer does....RATED CAPACITY 1,024,000 ma/hr at 51.2 volts......
Sorry, but I don't understand why the total thickness of a 4 parallel connected 50Ah cells should be 187mm. The thickness of a single cell is 11.2mm, so a stack of 4 cells would be 44.8mm, less than 2 inches. Adding the separators, it's reasonable to have a total thickness of less than 4 inches.
I guess WX12I3250 is cell model number because I also found another similar model number on Alibaba.com, WX12I3752, which is a NCM cell with 3.2V rated voltage and 52Ah rated capacity. But I'm not very sure about my conclusion, A123's cell model designation is indeed a bit confusing because different cells have quite different style of model name. i.e. AMP20M1HD-A for 20Ah cell, WX12I3250 for 50Ah cell.

1623374411101.png1623374822912.png
 

Tecnodave

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Fran-wh.....

Look at the pictures....there are FOUR STACKS OF CELLS......EACH IS 3 7/8 inches thick...EACH CONTAINS 4 CELL FRAMES.........EACH STACK IS 12.8 volts... if there were 4 in parallel and 4 in series that would be 16 cells in 3 7/8 inches....NOT POSSIBLE WITH 11.7 mm. thick cells.....

if therewere 50 a.h. cells that would be 64 cells to make up 200 a.h. @ 51.2 volts THERE ARE ONLY 16 cells visible.....where are the other 48 hidden....

The manufacturers states that the connections are 2P 16S......I can believe that there are two cells in each 1 inch thick plastic frame.......NO WAY do i believe that you can stuff 4 each cells in parallel in each 1 inch thick plastic frame, each stack of frames have 4 visible cells......again look at the pictures......its obvious that there could not be 16 cells each 11.2 or 11.7 mm. thick (depends on which figures you use) each stuffed into 3 7/8 inches.....that would be a thickness of 7 -8 inches

IF you search on self contained backup battery systems the BEST SUN is NOT the only one with this configuration, I have found 5 each 10 kw/h battery backup systems at 51.2 volts. All of them claim 100 a.h. cell pouches. GO search Amazon and Ebay....you will see these systems.....

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE ON MY WORKBENCH.....



HERE IS ANOTHER ONE....




Read the specs very closely.....the Lynx is a 48 volt unit but its charge voltage is 12.7 volts ??????? errors abound on all these products....

Keep in mind.....these are Chinese products.....details may vary.....
 
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Tecnodave

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So i did remove the buss bars from one frame and there are 2 cells in each frame, one of the manufacturers data sheets does say 2P16S arrangement of the cells and this is what i have. Each cell pack in its PVC frame has 4 cell frames that contain 2 cells each, tightly stacked. I did not attempt to disassemble the battery frames due to the nature of foil pouches, which like to be supported. I will be leaving each of the 4 cell packs as is and build 2 24 volt batteries each containing 16 cells wired as 2P8S

I have seen 80 a.h. pouch cells on Alibaba that are very similar to what i have so for the Chinese to grow the pouches from 80 a.h. to 100 a.h. is not that big a leap, by fall we will be seeing 120 amp pouches.

I have cut open several failed prismatic cells and these foil pouches are stacked into the prismatic boxes, one had 7 cells in each plastic box, cant remember but i think that they were a 80 a.h. set of 4 that i got that were very pregnant...very abused...did not recover anything from those...none of the pouches had burst but it did look like they were getting ready to spill electrolyte....off to the recyclers
 
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