2000W Reliable PSW Inverter- to bond, or not to bond?

[12VoltInstalls]

New thread to discuss nuetral-ground bonding of a Reliable 2000W inverter to continue the topic without hijacking a separate thread.
Posting here for lack of a better idea. Up in smoke?! Hope not?

Reliable (QZRELB) 2000W manual states that bare/green/G cannot be connected for a bonded system. Sortof.

@FilterGuy is compiling the oem state of various inverters here in case you want a reference for N-G bonding for this subject.

But does this mean you can’t bond it? I don’t know as the manual makes little sense:

?
View attachment 135770

very confusing

Ya. I read it four or five times just now. Had to put my thinking cap on.

if the breaker ground line is combined with neutral, please connect it to the black wire on the inverter. It CANNOT connect the red and yellow or black and line to power the load

With some critical thinking to discern meaning from the ambiguous broken english I interpret this biblically:

1. “Breaker ground line” = bare/green/G wire from breaker panel
2. “Is combined with nuetral” = N-G bond in breaker panel is acknowledged
3. “Connect it to the black wire on the inverter” = (with what the manual states withstanding: “Note that the red is for hot, the black is for neutral, and the yellow is for ground) that they are instructing user to create a parallel path on G between inverter and breaker panel.
4. “It CANNOT connect the….” = It being what? Referring to “breaker ground line” (sic) or the inverter itself. I have to surmise they are referring to the “breaker ground line” aka bare/green/G because of the ambiguity if stating that the inverter cannot power a load, right!
5. “It CANNOT connect the red[H] and yellow[G] or black[N] and line[H,red] to power the load” = which means what exactly? Because N(black) to H(red) have to “power the load” as implied in 4. above. Which leads me to conclude that they mean one of three things and only one one makes sense because the other two make the inverter unusable.

Summary conclusions:

• they are saying do not bond their inverter yellow[G] wire to black[N] on the inverter but leave it floating, and causing the yellow[G] to then carry lethal current.
• If one wishes to exit the inverter and connect immediately to a GFCI outlet to create protection before feeding the breaker panel (for a mobile system this would be desirable- even in a structure it would be desirable) one cannot safely establish the N-G in that outlet box
• The best case - in my case only, others may have different requirements to maintain safety- with my assuming the ambiguous instructions were discerned correctly would be to leave the inverter connection “open” and deadhead the bare/green/G with a wire nut at the inverter, and connect G to the GFCI with both the floating inverter end and the G to breaker panel. And depending on circumstances - and transfer switches or whatever - make the N-G in the GFCI outlet box ahead of any 3-pole transfer switch to effectively make the GFCI the ‘source of power’
• I would prefer to bond the inverter but with what the manual poorly says, I see no need to make the G ‘hot’ at the inverter; I’m not sure what that accomplishes?

There was a post I can’t locate at the moment (maybe it’s in this thread LOL) where @RCinFLA or @Supervstech or someone suggested testing the inverter for N-G tolerance with an inline fuse.
Others (not here) have suggested a high-value resistor in-line and a clamp meter to check for current but I see problems with that as I don’t have any burn relief cream on hand….

While I would love to resolve this for myself, the fact is the methodology of figuring out an inverter’s tolerance for N-G bonding should apply to every commodity inverter. And this is one of the more important considerations of any inverter installation whether mobile or ‘permanent.’

 

[73powerstroke]

To make matters worse the wires aren't the same inside from the block terminal. Some people switch them

 

[12VoltInstalls]

To make matters worse the wires aren't the same inside from the block terminal. Some people switch them

Now I have to take the time to remove the case and look - no respect of my time ?

I hope one of the ‘advanced’ folks I tagged will jump in here, too

 

[73powerstroke]

Now I have to take the time to remove the case and look - no respect of my time ?

I hope one of the ‘advanced’ folks I tagged will jump in here, too

Yeah I think I had a thread about it before. I'll see if I can find the pictures. But the wires on the deal are reverse. If you test it you will see the red wire isn't the same as the hot. The manufacturer says read hot black neutral. As I recall one was right the other was wrong in regards to the receptacle and block
The board is silkscreen backwards
Here's some pictures also from a Craigslist seller depicting a mod he does to these

 

[12VoltInstalls]

But the wires on the deal are reverse. If you test it you will see the red wire isn't the same as the hot.

Huh. I apparently did notice- but I did not get a manual in the box so it seems I tested it and noted it at some point:
So I thought, “I’ll just reverse them!” And in pulling the spade connectors one of the pulled right out of the board!!! prompting a partial disassemble and soldering task

Anyways, I’m about to mount it to the wall. I want to orient the airflow ‘up’ but I can’t remember: do the fans blow out the 12V cable mounting end or do they blow towards the front/120VAC panel end?
Of course I could temporarily wire it and see but an answer from someone who knows seems a bit easier
Thanks

Also, that blue wire appears to be a case ground? If it’s the same as mine…
I left it in place. I’m going to figure out a way to bond this safely at a 3-pole 120VAC transfer switch so that if the inverter is in use it is bonded, but if not in use the N-G is derived from whatever the other source of power is (which at this point would be ‘grid’ if I ever switch on the 1012LV-MK

 

[73powerstroke]

Huh. I apparently did notice- but I did not get a manual in the box so it seems I tested it and noted it at some point:View attachment 136394
So I thought, “I’ll just reverse them!” And in pulling the spade connectors one of the pulled right out of the board!!! prompting a partial disassemble and soldering task

Anyways, I’m about to mount it to the wall. I want to orient the airflow ‘up’ but I can’t remember: do the fans blow out the 12V cable mounting end or do they blow towards the front/120VAC panel end?
Of course I could temporarily wire it and see but an answer from someone who knows seems a bit easier
Thanks

Also, that blue wire appears to be a case ground? If it’s the same as mine…
I left it in place. I’m going to figure out a way to bond this safely at a 3-pole 120VAC transfer switch so that if the inverter is in use it is bonded, but if not in use the N-G is derived from whatever the other source of power is (which at this point would be ‘grid’ if I ever switch on the 1012LV-MK

Yeah I don't know. I don't like what they say in the manual. It's contradictory. I wish it was more clear

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Yeah I don't know. I don't like what they say in the manual. It's contradictory. I wish it was more clear

Well at some point here I’m either going to burn mine up or prove it works bonded.
Too many other things and family issues at the moment and I haven’t got it done yet.

 

[73powerstroke]

Well at some point here I’m either going to burn mine up or prove it works bonded.
Too many other things and family issues at the moment and I haven’t got it done yet.

Yeah. I put mine away I'm just using my mpp hvlv2424. And right now snow is covering most of my panels.
I'm actually going to sell my 24v 3000w reliable. It's almost a year old. So if anyone in Northern Arizona is interested I'll make a deal over what San tan solar charged me

 

[Wattsinwattsout]

New thread to discuss nuetral-ground bonding of a Reliable 2000W inverter to continue the topic without hijacking a separate thread.
Posting here for lack of a better idea. Up in smoke?! Hope not?

Reliable (QZRELB) 2000W manual states that bare/green/G cannot be connected for a bonded system. Sortof.

@FilterGuy is compiling the oem state of various inverters here in case you want a reference for N-G bonding for this subject.

But does this mean you can’t bond it? I don’t know as the manual makes little sense:



Ya. I read it four or five times just now. Had to put my thinking cap on.


With some critical thinking to discern meaning from the ambiguous broken english I interpret this biblically:

1. “Breaker ground line” = bare/green/G wire from breaker panel
2. “Is combined with nuetral” = N-G bond in breaker panel is acknowledged
3. “Connect it to the black wire on the inverter” = (with what the manual states withstanding: “Note that the red is for hot, the black is for neutral, and the yellow is for ground) that they are instructing user to create a parallel path on G between inverter and breaker panel.
4. “It CANNOT connect the….” = It being what? Referring to “breaker ground line” (sic) or the inverter itself. I have to surmise they are referring to the “breaker ground line” aka bare/green/G because of the ambiguity if stating that the inverter cannot power a load, right!
5. “It CANNOT connect the red[H] and yellow[G] or black[N] and line[H,red] to power the load” = which means what exactly? Because N(black) to H(red) have to “power the load” as implied in 4. above. Which leads me to conclude that they mean one of three things and only one one makes sense because the other two make the inverter unusable.

Summary conclusions:

• they are saying do not bond their inverter yellow[G] wire to black[N] on the inverter but leave it floating, and causing the yellow[G] to then carry lethal current.
• If one wishes to exit the inverter and connect immediately to a GFCI outlet to create protection before feeding the breaker panel (for a mobile system this would be desirable- even in a structure it would be desirable) one cannot safely establish the N-G in that outlet box
• The best case - in my case only, others may have different requirements to maintain safety- with my assuming the ambiguous instructions were discerned correctly would be to leave the inverter connection “open” and deadhead the bare/green/G with a wire nut at the inverter, and connect G to the GFCI with both the floating inverter end and the G to breaker panel. And depending on circumstances - and transfer switches or whatever - make the N-G in the GFCI outlet box ahead of any 3-pole transfer switch to effectively make the GFCI the ‘source of power’
• I would prefer to bond the inverter but with what the manual poorly says, I see no need to make the G ‘hot’ at the inverter; I’m not sure what that accomplishes?

There was a post I can’t locate at the moment (maybe it’s in this thread LOL) where @RCinFLA or @Supervstech or someone suggested testing the inverter for N-G tolerance with an inline fuse.
Others (not here) have suggested a high-value resistor in-line and a clamp meter to check for current but I see problems with that as I don’t have any burn relief cream on hand….

While I would love to resolve this for myself, the fact is the methodology of figuring out an inverter’s tolerance for N-G bonding should apply to every commodity inverter. And this is one of the more important considerations of any inverter installation whether mobile or ‘permanent.’

See this if you haven’t sold the unit.
Thread 'WZRELB Reliable Inverter 60v + 60v polarity issue. Ground and neutral have 60v?'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/w...rity-issue-ground-and-neutral-have-60v.66601/

 

[12VoltInstalls]

See this if you haven’t sold the unit.
Thread 'WZRELB Reliable Inverter 60v + 60v polarity issue. Ground and neutral have 60v?'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/w...rity-issue-ground-and-neutral-have-60v.66601/

I have read of this before. I indeed had to reverse N and H internally on my 2000W unit.

I have not sold the unit. The refrigerator is cold right now because of it. I do want to get a 3000W version at some point and relegate this one to backup or some other purpose. Or perhaps sell it?

I believe @Hedges and/or ?? @Supervstech or somesuch covered the 60VAC mystery voltage in the past; it is a byproduct of cheap design with usually no amps, just voltage being present. I gathered from posts on this site that this is fairly common for most cheap mosfet inverters.

Also, @Hedges provided a writeup in the past of a procedure to determine if one should be safe to bond a high-frequency inverter or not. I have not run the gauntlet with mine, yet.

 

[Hedges]

And now I'm going to test out that procedure I recommended but never tried. Because I got shocked by my cheap inverter (AFTER I turned it off).
An old StatPower, which made 60 Vrms between chassis and battery (-). Therefore between inverter chassis and truck chassis.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

now I'm going to test out that procedure I recommended but never tried. Because I got shocked by my cheap inverter

I haven’t done it yet either- but I’m going to test the 2000W QZRELB before I order a 3000. If I can’t bond it I’m going with Giandel. Reliable (QZRELB) appeals to me because there’s so much airspace inside, seems better for longevity, but the couple of Giandels have always been fine regardless.

 

[Drew888]

After reading through this thread I still do not understand why it is desirable to bond at the inverter. It is the source, but if it is connected to a panel with a N-G bond it will clear fault if there is a short in the system. The hot leg should be run through a breaker at the panel and the breaker could be a GFCI type. If the inverter has a N-G bond then the panel would have to be wired as a sub.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

still do not understand why it is desirable to bond at the inverter.

In a mobile or off grid situation where there is zero possibility of grid or generator connection)s) to ever provide a secondary N-G bond and the inverter is not providing ground, then (provided that the “open” inverter can handle N-G bonding) it really doesn’t matter if the G conductor is bonded at the inverter or bonded within the breaker box*
*as long as the wire size is appropriate and close proximity to the distribution panel.