300AH 12V LFP Battery Recommendation

[Weebles]

Lurker for a while, first time post. My trawler has space limitations - a pair of 300AH 12V LFP batteries appear to fit pretty well. Have been looking at the CHIN/Amper Time but wondering if there is something else I should consider? Low price is of course attractive, but seeking decent value overall. Thanks in advance -

 

[Rednecktek]

Those batteries are pretty good, or PowerQueen which is well regarded.

 

[wholybee]

Kilovault and Epoch are two top notch batteries at a good price. Not as cheap as CHIN, but much better built. I would not buy a Chins/Ampertime.
Will reviewed them and was impressed because they have low temp cutoff and internal heaters, which he emphasizes as important. But, if you pay attention and look at the battery in the video, the internal wires are only 10AWG, and it is assembled internally with packing tape.

The CHINS are probably great in a stationary application without high charge/discharge rates. But, I would hesitate to use them in a boat.

 

[eagleray]

I have 4X of the Chins 12V 100AH. I'm happy with them, but IMO they're pretty much identical to a dozen others in the bargain bin, e.g. the TimeUSB 12V 95AH is a substantially lower price right now. Prob refurbished cells bc the 95ah appears to be a bit heavier despite having lower capacity, but the price is 22% less than the Chins even though capacity is only 5% less. Found here: https://amzn.to/3Z1ejpz

 

[eagleray]

RE: Epoch being "better-built," I'd challenge that. The Chins internals are quite strong. Watch Will Prowse's teardown on them:

Not sure there's anything they should do to improve those internals. Perhaps "has big warranty" is more appropriate than "better-built." There are few differences other than the 11-yr-warranty vs no warranty. The Epoch has a fancy case with bolt mounts. That's worth $20 IMO. The LCD monitor is a "no thanks" for me, but even if I wanted it built into the battery, it would also be worth $20. The Epoch is $600. Chins is currently $320. I don't know how they get off charging $280 extra for $40 more in components plus a warranty. I'd never buy the Epoch.

RE: monitoring, I just buy Drok monitors and put them on everything. They have way more detail, and they're $20 a pop.

 

[Philip53]

I did my research & ended up purchasing batteries from trophybattery.com. Will had done a video review a while back, and some others have commented positively on their purchases as well. I found that my 48v 220ah batteries actually came in at 230ah, as Dan (the owner) had told me. If, after checking out their website you have any questions, give Dan a call - it was a rare, good customer experience.

 

[jdege]

AIUI Epoch's are made by RoyPow, and will has a pretty good opinion of them:

 

[wholybee]

RE: Epoch being "better-built," I'd challenge that. The Chins internals are quite strong. Watch Will Prowse's teardown on them:

Not sure there's anything they should do to improve those internals. Perhaps "has big warranty" is more appropriate than "better-built." There are few differences other than the 11-yr-warranty vs no warranty. The Epoch has a fancy case with bolt mounts. That's worth $20 IMO. The LCD monitor is a "no thanks" for me, but even if I wanted it built into the battery, it would also be worth $20. The Epoch is $600. Chins is currently $320. I don't know how they get off charging $280 extra for $40 more in components plus a warranty. I'd never buy the Epoch.

RE: monitoring, I just buy Drok monitors and put them on everything. They have way more detail, and they're $20 a pop.

The Chins uses packing tape to hold the cells, 10AWG wires, and a smaller BMS with little heat sink area.

Epoch uses aluminium plates in a compression frame, larger wire (could not read the exact size in the video, but much larger than Chins) and a larger BMS with more FETS and larger heatsink.

Chins is junk, sorry.

 

[Alkaline]

You need to read up on chins some more:

"Johnny 2 chins"

and look at what hey are doing now:

I think ever since Will BBQ'd the chins, its been on a downward spiral...

redodo and ampere time seem to be better for budget, but they may just be made by the same ppl...

 

[Alkaline]

AIUI Epoch's are made by RoyPow, and will has a pretty good opinion of them:

No! They are they are engineered & designed in the USA! (well thats at least what epoch claim ?)

 

[wholybee]

Here is a teardown of the Epoch. The difference between this and the Chins is obvious:

 

[jdege]

I'd place an order for two 48V 100Ah Epochs right now, except their website says "Re-stocking soon".

I contacted them and was told they've "made some improvements to the connectors and upgraded the BMS a bit."

They expect to have them in stock in 45 days.

 

[Sam Cho TX]

I have been happy with the sun fun kits they have a 300 ah battery with a heater that you can turn on with a button.
But If you can wait and you don't mind building the kit is about $300 cheaper.

 

[l00semarble]

just out of curiosity what are your complete plans once you decide on a battery to buy? Are you going to just "drop it in" and hope for the best or are you planning a series of supporting upgrades/modifications?

What are your charging sources?

How do you plan to avoid problems due to lack of BMS low temp cutout? (maybe you are somewhere always warm?!)

Are you concerned about meeting ABYC Standard E-13?

What does your insurance company think of the project?

 

[eagleray]

You need to read up on chins some more:

and look at what hey are doing now:

I think ever since Will BBQ'd the chins, its been on a downward spiral...

redodo and ampere time seem to be better for budget, but they may just be made by the same ppl...

I've seen these videos. Sure, Chins has knock-off cells. So does Rododo and Amper Time (now Li Time) and nearly every other brand. There are only half a dozen OEMs. These cells are all coming from the same few places. No one is rigorously auditing any of them to confirm whether/how often they're mixing in b-grade/refurbished, so you can pretty well bet they're all doing all of the above to save a buck. For the right price, I buy anyway, knowing it's always a roll of the dice.

RE: bus bars and gauge sizes and BMSes and heat sink sizes, first of all, the BMS size is prominently advertised on all of the good bargain buys, which I appreciate. If it's too small for your application, that's on you as the buyer to buy the correct product IMO.

There's two sides to the coin on beefy components. Bigger is not always better. It's obviously always safer, but obviously more expensive too. So there's a sweet spot, and we can disagree on whether a given brand nailed the sweet spot. But it's easy to measure whether they FAILED to be in the ballpark. Unless someone can show me heat cam evidence of Chins or Li Time or any other bargain battery failing under its specified load limit due to small internal wires or bus bars or heat sink, I don't care that much whether their components are less beefy than the competitor that costs 2-3X as much. Unnecessarily beefy components are not worth the difference. Big enough is big enough IMO. When I look for quality on the internals, I'm looking for whether there's evidence of cheap DIY hacking (like manual-labor soldering for example), which there IS in many cases. But not with Chins and not with Li Time. Those are quality bargain buys IMO. I'm totally fine with packing tape. I challenge anyone to dislodge those cells without opening the case. They're secure.

RE: batteries failing upon arrival, Chins and others may not have warranties, but they do have limited return policies for faulty product. I have 4 Chins 100AH that work fine, but if any one of them showed up faulty, I'd send it back immediately and I'd understand that that's common with all LiFePO4 brands. The important part is whether the company honors its returns promptly. If anyone can tell me Chins does not honor returns, THAT would be a huge red flag and I would probably stop buying from them. But I haven't seen an instance of that yet.

RE: the Chins solid-state battery, that was a prototype. To my knowledge, they don't sell that battery, probably because Will blasted it to hell in that video. I've looked for it. Search "Chins solid state battery" on Amazon. You won't find it. It was NMC, not LiFePO4. Will himself confirms LiFePO4 is safe in that video while he's nuking the NMC battery.

Now, to be fair, he did call them out for being vague about whether the cells were NMC in the first place, and if they continued practices like that... that would also be a red flag. I'd argue Will gave them a hell of a slap on the hand for that shady marketing. Hopefully, they got the message: chemistry must always be clearly labelled. But none of that has any bearing on the quality of their LiFePO4 products. When you type in "Chins battery" on Amazon, it's 100% LiFePO4 as far as I can see.

RE: capacity tests, I've capacity-tested all four of my Chins and they overdeliver up to 5%-ish. I just uploaded a video yesterday showing the 100AH giving me 105AH on a trolling motor bench test. Now, is it possible you get a dud from them that only gives 90AH. Sure. Send it back. I would. And if they won't replace, that's when I don't buy from them anymore.

 

[eagleray]

Also, it might seem like I have a thing for Chins, but it's really just bc it's the brand I happen to have in bulk on-hand at the moment. I don't play favorites. I just like competitive pricing, and there's a huge gap in the market: either you're in the bargain bin with Chins and Redodo and Li Time, or you're charging triple for no good reason IMO.

 

[wholybee]

There are absolutely examples of cells failing when they are only secured with packing tape, and the cell manufactures datasheets require they are mounted in a compression frame. It isn't about becoming "dislodged", the cells can swell and fail.

The wire size is not just about failure, but about voltage drop. You can undersize a wire alot, and not get a fire or failure. But, for example, my 12V DC powered fridge gets much colder, much faster, and using fewer Wh per day, at 13.2V than it does at 12.7V. That extra half a volt also makes a difference with a windless, running an inverter, etc. Almost anything that draws significant current.

You are wrong to assume that nearly every manufacture uses "knock off cells." Probably any high volume company, even Chins, is likely to buy cells direct from a factory. But, just because they all come from the same few factories, doesn't make them all the same. At a given factory, the cells will all be made to the "recipe", then tested, sorted, and sold at different prices for different applications. The cheapest will go to the grey market and be sold on Alibaba. The best will go to the EV market. There will also be cells sold direct from the factory that didn't make the cut to be sold to an auto manufacturer, but is "good-enough" for something else. Just look at how many people here talk about needing an active balancer. Or even some people who have needed to cut open a drop in battery to add an active balancer. Needing an active balancer is a symptom of using poorly matched cells. And while the only symptom now might be balancing difficulties, a few years down the road one cell might have such a high self discharge rate it needs to be replaced.

Regarding a BMS being "big-enough" is about life expectancy. A BMS that is "big-enough" to work with 100A might last 5 years, where an "over-built" BMS might last 20. In either case you might be lucky or unlucky, but I am targeting my LFP bank to last 20 years, and I make my purchases accordingly. If you are treating them like a disposable you will replace in 5 years, then go ahead.

"Overdelivering" by 5% is just making it, IMHO. My batteries overdeliver by 15%+, even after being in use for 3 years. But at least 5% over is better than being under, but still "acceptable" because they are within 5%.

I won't argue that Chins is a decent value. It is a fair price for what you get. But, its a low quality battery that cannot be expected to last or perform as well as others. Epoch and Kilovault are about the best quality drop in batteries money can buy. But, they are far cheaper than Battleborn or Victron, despite being as good or better. That is why they are IMHO a better value. With Epoch or Kilovault, you are getting a much better battery than what the price would have you believe. With Chins, you are getting closer to what you paid for.

Just reading your latest post. Epoch and Kilovault are in that "gap." A middle priced battery, as good as the triple the price battery.

 

[eagleray]

Just reading your latest post. Epoch and Kilovault are in that "gap." A middle priced battery, as good as the triple the price battery.

I agree with almost all of this, and you're right that Epoch and Kilovault are a much closer-to-fair price IMO than many of their competitors.

It's true that I assume a 5-yr life from my bargain buys is pretty decent, since I can buy three for the price of a Victron and never need the Victron warranty. You're absolutely right that it depends on the application. Lots of continuous load definitely means you should aim for beefier components.

Only 2 parts I still contend with:

1) The need for compression is mostly a myth IMO. If there's clear evidence of packing tape causing significant loss of cycle life, I'd very much like to see that, because I've seen evidence to suggest the opposite. Andy at Off-Grid Garage did enough compression testing and spec reviews to convince me that compression makes such a small difference that the cells will likely degrade from age before a significant loss even registers from lack of compression. I know the community was obsessed with compression during covid, but I watched all of that play out while wondering the whole time if anyone had verified if it made much difference. I don't think it does, but I'm happy to be proven wrong with data. I know the OEMs have lots of compression data, but I mean boots-on-the-ground customer data.

2) I didn't mean to imply every manufacturer definitely uses knock-offs, but it's impossible to know whether and how often any of them do without extensive audits that don't exist in today's industry. So Victron packs could be full of knock-off b-grade and no one would notice for years. As long as their customer service is spot-on, only they would know how frequent their returns are. Same with Epoch and all the others, so IMO when we talk about quality, it's fair to assume every cell in every sealed pack is a roll of the dice, since I wouldn't put it past any company to throw in some refurbs the moment they believe no one is checking.

 

[wholybee]

Yeah, a lot of the compression theories and complex techniques went completely off the rails, that is for sure! Fancy and complex doesn't make a difference, just that you prevent the cells from bulging. I respect Andy a lot, but he hasn't run those tests to 20 years, nor has he x-rayed or performed other extensive tests on how the inside of the cell changes when it bulges. The manufactures insist it is important, and that is the most authoritative source we have, as they can and do perform those tests. And for sure, it is documented that cells not in a frame can bulge the first time they are charged.

Maybe a roll of the dice, but a loaded dice. It's a bigger gamble to go with a Chinese brand that sells at a low price, and cuts corners on things like the BMS, wires, and frame, than the gamble with a US brand that doesn't cut corners in those areas.

Not to say there are not a lot of happy users of Chins. I know a number of people with them. I notice that you are a "DIY electric boat Youtuber" in Lake Havasu. That is a very different use case than me. I circumnavigated the globe, and my battery reliability is very important. It's a minor inconvenience for you if you need to replace a battery. For me it would be a real emergency.

 

[audiobill5]

I've seen these videos. Sure, Chins has knock-off cells. So does Rododo and Amper Time (now Li Time) and nearly every other brand. There are only half a dozen OEMs. These cells are all coming from the same few places. No one is rigorously auditing any of them to confirm whether/how often they're mixing in b-grade/refurbished, so you can pretty well bet they're all doing all of the above to save a buck. For the right price, I buy anyway, knowing it's always a roll of the dice.

RE: bus bars and gauge sizes and BMSes and heat sink sizes, first of all, the BMS size is prominently advertised on all of the good bargain buys, which I appreciate. If it's too small for your application, that's on you as the buyer to buy the correct product IMO.

There's two sides to the coin on beefy components. Bigger is not always better. It's obviously always safer, but obviously more expensive too. So there's a sweet spot, and we can disagree on whether a given brand nailed the sweet spot. But it's easy to measure whether they FAILED to be in the ballpark. Unless someone can show me heat cam evidence of Chins or Li Time or any other bargain battery failing under its specified load limit due to small internal wires or bus bars or heat sink, I don't care that much whether their components are less beefy than the competitor that costs 2-3X as much. Unnecessarily beefy components are not worth the difference. Big enough is big enough IMO. When I look for quality on the internals, I'm looking for whether there's evidence of cheap DIY hacking (like manual-labor soldering for example), which there IS in many cases. But not with Chins and not with Li Time. Those are quality bargain buys IMO. I'm totally fine with packing tape. I challenge anyone to dislodge those cells without opening the case. They're secure.

RE: batteries failing upon arrival, Chins and others may not have warranties, but they do have limited return policies for faulty product. I have 4 Chins 100AH that work fine, but if any one of them showed up faulty, I'd send it back immediately and I'd understand that that's common with all LiFePO4 brands. The important part is whether the company honors its returns promptly. If anyone can tell me Chins does not honor returns, THAT would be a huge red flag and I would probably stop buying from them. But I haven't seen an instance of that yet.

RE: the Chins solid-state battery, that was a prototype. To my knowledge, they don't sell that battery, probably because Will blasted it to hell in that video. I've looked for it. Search "Chins solid state battery" on Amazon. You won't find it. It was NMC, not LiFePO4. Will himself confirms LiFePO4 is safe in that video while he's nuking the NMC battery.

Now, to be fair, he did call them out for being vague about whether the cells were NMC in the first place, and if they continued practices like that... that would also be a red flag. I'd argue Will gave them a hell of a slap on the hand for that shady marketing. Hopefully, they got the message: chemistry must always be clearly labelled. But none of that has any bearing on the quality of their LiFePO4 products. When you type in "Chins battery" on Amazon, it's 100% LiFePO4 as far as I can see.

RE: capacity tests, I've capacity-tested all four of my Chins and they overdeliver up to 5%-ish. I just uploaded a video yesterday showing the 100AH giving me 105AH on a trolling motor bench test. Now, is it possible you get a dud from them that only gives 90AH. Sure. Send it back. I would. And if they won't replace, that's when I don't buy from them anymore.

Chargex lithium Batteries (Tampa, FL) uses only 'A' grade cylindrical stainless clad fused cells that they test 10 different ways to make sure they are almost identical.
they test:
1. Consistency of Self Discharge

2. Consistency of Voltage

3. Consistency of Inner Impedance

4. Consistency of Capacity

5. Consistency of Cycle Life

6. Consistency of Platform

7. Consistency of Constant Current Rate

8. Consistency of Cell Power Control

9. Consistency of Parallel Module Control

10. Consistency of Finished Battery Module

Good stuff!