300AH 12V LFP Battery Recommendation

[eagleray]

ChargeX does have a more detailed spec sheet than most resellers I've seen. That's appreciated, but also, they say very directly that their unit is a "drop-in replacement" for lead acid batteries. That's a pretty bold claim, considering all the known issues between LiFePO4 and most alternators. Also, ChargeX claims their 100AH can do 1000CCA. Wow. I assume they've tested that extensively, but it immediately implies there's no overcurrent protection engaged in the BMS, which is not a deal-breaker for me. However, I am very curious how high discharge rates affect cycle life. To my knowledge, we have access to cycle life numbers from OEMs, but almost never from resellers, yet more and more resellers are beginning to claim CCA numbers without any clarification as to how starter usage will degrade expected cycle life. If I start a Merc 50HP twice per day for a year, will my ChargeX battery still last for several thousand deep cycles? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. I think it behooves brands who print CCA numbers to test and specify cycle life per X number of starts to simulate the numbers they expect customers to experience through the product's life.

 

[audiobill5]

Hey Eagleray,
Thanks for your time/comments on Chargex.
I've got an e-mail into Victor, the MIT engineer that figured all this out 15 years ago when the term 'drop-in battery' wasn't even heard of.
More info soon!
Safe Voyages!
audiobill5
Motoring around the Boston Harbor for my 25th year.

 

[wholybee]

ChargeX does have a more detailed spec sheet than most resellers I've seen. That's appreciated, but also, they say very directly that their unit is a "drop-in replacement" for lead acid batteries. That's a pretty bold claim, considering all the known issues between LiFePO4 and most alternators. Also, ChargeX claims their 100AH can do 1000CCA. Wow. I assume they've tested that extensively, but it immediately implies there's no overcurrent protection engaged in the BMS, which is not a deal-breaker for me. However, I am very curious how high discharge rates affect cycle life. To my knowledge, we have access to cycle life numbers from OEMs, but almost never from resellers, yet more and more resellers are beginning to claim CCA numbers without any clarification as to how starter usage will degrade expected cycle life. If I start a Merc 50HP twice per day for a year, will my ChargeX battery still last for several thousand deep cycles? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. I think it behooves brands who print CCA numbers to test and specify cycle life per X number of starts to simulate the numbers they expect customers to experience through the product's life.

Starting an engine requires only a few seconds, and only a few Ah. So, it is unlikely to have any adverse effect on the LFP. It's been done for many years with some of the early LFP installs that did not use FETs anywhere in the system. The FETs in the BMS are what can't withstand the high current. And, with a bit more money, it is easy to add more FETS (in parallel) to get higher current carrying capacity. And there is a time component. A single FET might handle 5 Amps continuous, or 20A for 30 seconds. Several manufactures have drop ins built for starting, and that is what they do, add FETS, and have a 30 second rating and a continuous rating. That doesn't mean any lack of overcurrent protection. Just have 2 levels. A 100 amp limit with a 30 second delay before it kicks in, and a 1000A limit with no delay.

Depending on the application for the "drop-in", many newer alternators have built in temperature sensors, and work fine with an LFP without any special consideration. They are more common on Trucks, Vans, and RVs, than on boats. Also, in a starting application, they will always be near full, so the alternator will only be running for a short time at max current, so temperature sensing is hardly needed (still a good safety measure). In that regard, it is important to know what you have, but in some cases, they could be a direct drop-in replacement.

 

[eagleray]

Starting an engine requires only a few seconds, and only a few Ah. So, it is unlikely to have any adverse effect on the LFP. It's been done for many years with some of the early LFP installs that did not use FETs anywhere in the system. The FETs in the BMS are what can't withstand the high current. And, with a bit more money, it is easy to add more FETS (in parallel) to get higher current carrying capacity. And there is a time component. A single FET might handle 5 Amps continuous, or 20A for 30 seconds. Several manufactures have drop ins built for starting, and that is what they do, add FETS, and have a 30 second rating and a continuous rating. That doesn't mean any lack of overcurrent protection. Just have 2 levels. A 100 amp limit with a 30 second delay before it kicks in, and a 1000A limit with no delay.

Depending on the application for the "drop-in", many newer alternators have built in temperature sensors, and work fine with an LFP without any special consideration. They are more common on Trucks, Vans, and RVs, than on boats. Also, in a starting application, they will always be near full, so the alternator will only be running for a short time at max current, so temperature sensing is hardly needed (still a good safety measure). In that regard, it is important to know what you have, but in some cases, they could be a direct drop-in replacement.

I would like to see results of extensive tests proving several hundreds starts at 3-5C has no detrimental effect on the life cycle count of a LiFePO4. I think heat during those 15 seconds is probably the key measurement during starter tests, rather than amp hours consumed. If 500 amps for 15 seconds (near worst case scenario for most starters) is proven with lots of data to cause no shortfall in life cycles, I'll be surprised, impressed, and happy to let any LiFePO4 reseller print CCA numbers on their packs at will without complaint.

 

[scubadoo]

I would like to see results of extensive tests proving several hundreds starts at 3-5C has no detrimental effect on the life cycle count of a LiFePO4. I think heat during those 15 seconds is probably the key measurement during starter tests, rather than amp hours consumed. If 500 amps for 15 seconds (near worst case scenario for most starters) is proven with lots of data to cause no shortfall in life cycles, I'll be surprised, impressed, and happy to let any LiFePO4 reseller print CCA numbers on their packs at will without complaint.

My Sinopoly 4 cell LiFePO4 battery has survived 9 years of full-time travelling both starting our motorhome Canter 3.9l turbo diesel engine often multiple times daily and powering the home behind.
I have observed a peak current of 730A but no doubt the average is much lower.
500A for the typical 1 or 2 second engine start is just a fraction of an Ah and would be replaced by the alternator at 80A in less than 20 seconds. No alternator smoke yet either.
I perform an annual November capacity test and in Ah in has drastically reduced from the original 315 to just 301.
No internal BMS or DC-DC charger involved.
I have no concerns yet.

 

[eagleray]

My Sinopoly 4 cell LiFePO4 battery has survived 9 years of full-time travelling both starting our motorhome Canter 3.9l turbo diesel engine often multiple times daily and powering the home behind.
I have observed a peak current of 730A but no doubt the average is much lower.
500A for the typical 1 or 2 second engine start is just a fraction of an Ah and would be replaced by the alternator at 80A in less than 20 seconds. No alternator smoke yet either.
I perform an annual November capacity test and in Ah in has drastically reduced from the original 315 to just 301.
No internal BMS or DC-DC charger involved.
I have no concerns yet.

Sounds like a normal LiFePO4 life cycle to me. If we can get some manufacturers or resellers to replicate these results 100s or 1000s of times on a test bench, I think we'll have sufficient proof that LiFePO4 is a good drop-in replacement for starter batteries with no danger to its total cycle count, assuming alternator manufacturers resolve all outstanding compatibility issues. As is, they're already starting to print CCA and MCA numbers, and that won't look good to the giant contingent of late adopters who cling to their lead acid batteries like grim death. I chat in the fishing forums a lot. Car guys and tiny boat people often still have a strange unfounded hate for lithium. The last bastion of lead acid that makes any sense is in starting motors. Sufficient LiFePO4 test bench R&D might put a final nail in lead acid's coffin.

 

[yabert]

Sounds like a normal LiFePO4 life cycle to me.

Not all LFP cells are created equal.
Manufacturers can create LFP cells for EV or storage who will be cycle at less than 1C for his entire life.
They can also create LFP cells able to be discharge at 10C.
The thing is you can not know if it's relevant that a seller clam a battery to be able to start engine without knowing the specific characteristic of the LFP cells inside this battery.

 

[HarryN]

Recently did a van 24 volt project with a pair of battle born GC3s.

It was designed to run at not more than 0.5 C so we didn't stress them at all under any condition.

Usually if someone wants a starter / marine battery I just use a Lifeline AGM vs Li based.

You could ask the Li suppliers if they thought they could handle an engine start load but usually I avoid it.

 

[Sam Cho TX]

Lurker for a while, first time post. My trawler has space limitations - a pair of 300AH 12V LFP batteries appear to fit pretty well. Have been looking at the CHIN/Amper Time but wondering if there is something else I should consider? Low price is of course attractive, but seeking decent value overall. Thanks in advance -

what about an SFK 304AH kit?

 

[Niki Yee]

Lurker for a while, first time post. My trawler has space limitations - a pair of 300AH 12V LFP batteries appear to fit pretty well. Have been looking at the CHIN/Amper Time but wondering if there is something else I should consider? Low price is of course attractive, but seeking decent value overall. Thanks in advance -

If you want to buy a high-quality product, Energyeco might be a good choice. If you're looking for something more affordable, Vatrer is a good option. Both of them can meet your needs.

 

[BradCagle]

what about an SFK 304AH kit?

They will have a 280ah complete kit with REPT Cells for $999 soon.

 

[MarcoWasRight]

The Chins uses packing tape to hold the cells, 10AWG wires, and a smaller BMS with little heat sink area.

Epoch uses aluminium plates in a compression frame, larger wire (could not read the exact size in the video, but much larger than Chins) and a larger BMS with more FETS and larger heatsink.

Chins is junk, sorry.

Chins uses twin 8AWG which is equal to a 5AWG. What does Epoch use? 6AWG?

 

[EastFalcon]

They will have a 280ah complete kit with REPT Cells for $999 soon.

I just saw your review on there 280 kit... are you 100% positive you had 280AH cells and not 300Ah? I'm just having a hard time believing you got 298 from 280 cells.

Do you have the link to there test report for the test?

 

[Tomthumb62]

either you're in the bargain bin with Chins and Redodo and Li Time, or you're charging triple for no good reason IMO.

Maybe the market has changed since you wrote that comment? (about 2.5 months ago at the moment). It's no where near double or triple as you claim, unless your talking about Battleborn and the like. There's some very good value batteries out there that are better than the budget batteries.

I paid $730 (free shipping, no tax, free 10A charger) for a Powerurus 12v 200Ah battery with a 200A BMS, Bluetooth, low-temp protection and a 5-year warranty. Works out to $3.65/Ah. My customer service experience with them has been excellent - they've answered the many questions I have sent their way.

Current price for the Chins 200Ah is $593, $2.97/Ah. But no low temp protection or bluetooth and BMS is only 100A. Now they DO have a newer 200Ah version that adds Bluetooth, heated+low-temp protection (protection triggers the heater to turn on) but still only a 100A BMS. Price is currently $692, or $3.46/Ah.

Compare the tear down videos of CHINS to Powerurus (made by Roypow who also makes the Epoch batteries) and in my opinion, it's worth the slight extra cost to get much better build quality, and better BMS. The build quality on the Powerurus is not as good as the Epoch, but is better than the CHINS and IMO, hits the mark between quality and value.

Powerurus 100Ah teardown:

Chins 100Ah teardown:

I suppose it depends upon what you want need. I wanted a SINGLE battery (hence a 200A BMS) to take up less space in the tight spot I have for a battery in a camp trailer than 2x100Ah would take. Heated battery not interesting to me as I will probably never need it (Will has a video about this) and I could always add a temp-controlled heater easily if I wanted. Low-temp protection is essential in my case...yes you can add the Victron low-temp protection module, but then you're locked into the cost of $$$ Victron SCC and AC charger (unless you were already planning a Victron setup). Bluetooth/app useful to me as it means I don't need the expense or complexity of a shunt monitor (the app is a fairly decent approximation of SOC but obviously not nearly as good as a shunt).

More than anything I have more faith in Roypow as a company as they seem to make all quality stuff whereas CHINS seems like a good deal but they really cheap out in ways I didn't want to be sleeping next to while camping. The CHINS solid state battery fire video didn't do them any favors...yes I know NMC vs LiFePO4...but WTF were they thinking sending a battery like that to a guy they knew was going to tear it apart?!?! Someone has rocks rattling upstairs in that company...

 

[Indepthdude]

I bought 3 of the Power Queen 12v, 300ah batteries. I paid $989 for the first one and $859 for the other two. I use them in a Victron Multiplus II 120x2, with Victron MPPT charge controllers and an Orion alternator charger on a 44ft Motoryacht. I am very happy with no complaints so far.

There is a lot of negativity about these batteries that I feel in unwarranted, and usually relates back to someone buying some other battery, without having any experience with these specific batteries (12v, 300ah).

To the original question asked… I am using 3 on my boat and couldn’t be happier so far. Best of luck on your own install.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Not to say there are not a lot of happy users of Chins. I know a number of people with them. I notice that you are a "DIY electric boat Youtuber" in Lake Havasu. That is a very different use case than me. I circumnavigated the globe, and my battery reliability is very important. It's a minor inconvenience for you if you need to replace a battery. For me it would be a real emergency.

This right there is so often at the heart of any 'heated debate' (not that the debate between you and eagleray is particularly heated). Person A is thinking what their own use case is and assumes that Person B has the same use case and vice versa. My wife taught me a lesson about that: ASSUME = makes an ASS out of U and ME. Good on ya to notice and point out that the needs/wants you have are likely different to @eagleray.

 

[Tomthumb62]

If you're looking for something more affordable, Vatrer is a good option.

The teardown video Will did of the Vatrer wasn't good. They didn't crimp the terminal wires, only used solder, also they used solder on the bus bars...poor build quality. Crimps are much more secure.

 

[Sam Cho TX]

I just saw your review on there 280 kit... are you 100% positive you had 280AH cells and not 300Ah? I'm just having a hard time believing you got 298 from 280 cells.

Do you have the link to there test report for the test?

Brad posted it in the video descrip. Its crazy how much better these rept 280 are vs eve 280K. No comparison!

https://www.sunfunkits.com/app/ViewBenchmarkDetails?id=92f179cb0341

Awesome batt for the price under 1k, almost 300AH, bluetooth, low temp, openable and those cells punch way above there weight.

 

[wholybee]

I just saw your review on there 280 kit... are you 100% positive you had 280AH cells and not 300Ah? I'm just having a hard time believing you got 298 from 280 cells.

Do you have the link to there test report for the test?

IMHO, new cells should test at 110-115% of rated capacity. I know many don't, but many cells are bought based on price, and have questionable histories or quality. All of my Calb cells tested at >110% capacity when new. That means that I can use 100% of rated capacity without needing to push the charging all the way to 3.65Vpc/100% SOC, and also that even after several years and some capacity degradation, I still get over 100% of rated capacity.

 

[Alkaline]

IMHO, new cells should test at 110-115% of rated capacity. I know many don't, but many cells are bought based on price, and have questionable histories or quality. All of my Calb cells tested at >110% capacity when new. That means that I can use 100% of rated capacity without needing to push the charging all the way to 3.65Vpc/100% SOC, and also that even after several years and some capacity degradation, I still get over 100% of rated capacity.

heh, how about buying some new 280K cells and put that theory to the test ?