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300KgF clamping fixtures and capacity loss?

fafrd

Solar Wizard
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Aug 11, 2020
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I just saw a post where a member stated that applying pressure to EVE cells extends cycle life but at the expense of some initial capacity loss and it’s the first I’ve heard of that.

Has anyone characterized capacity loss on their EVE 280Ah cells after clamping at 300KgF / 12psi?

Does EVE document anything similar anywhere?

If Eve 280Ah cells do exhibit reduced capacity from clamping, I’m interested to know how much capacity loss is typical…
 
Sorry for the tangent but I am not familiar with "KgF". I assume you don't mean "Kelvin gram Fahrenheit". A quick search came up with "kilogram force" (kgf) but that requires a "per some area" to get a pressure. And I couldn't find any standard area that worked out to 300 when converted from 12psi (pounds per square inch). Would you be kind enough to indulge my curiosity and tell me what actual units you are comparing to 12psi? Or am I completely misreading what "300KgF / 12psi" means? Thanks.
 
Sorry for the tangent but I am not familiar with "KgF". I assume you don't mean "Kelvin gram Fahrenheit". A quick search came up with "kilogram force" (kgf) but that requires a "per some area" to get a pressure. And I couldn't find any standard area that worked out to 300 when converted from 12psi (pounds per square inch). Would you be kind enough to indulge my curiosity and tell me what actual units you are comparing to 12psi? Or am I completely misreading what "300KgF / 12psi" means? Thanks.
The 12 PSI number came mostly from a conversation ghostwriter66 had with an EVE engineer. He outlined that 12 PSI was kinda the sweet spot .... but getting to 17 or over was too high.
It's been a while since I calculated it out, but I was thinking it was fairly close to the 300 kgf that is recommended in the EVE specs.
I'll see if I can find that post and update here.
 
Here is is .... found it quicker than I expected.

 
Found this: https://www.evlithium.com/hot-lithium-battery/946.html

So without a fixture, capacity is reduced by ~2.5% after ~250 cycles (~0.01% capacity lost per cycle) while with a 300KgF fixture, initial capacity loss is about twice that rate (~0.02% capacity lost per cycle or ~5% after ~250 cycles).

Break-even appears to be around ~1500 cycles where capacity is reduced to ~88.125% with or without a fixture (average of ~0.0081% capacity lost per cycle on either case).

So for the first 4 years of use, you can really only count on an Eve 280Ah cell delivering a maximum of 247Ah of capacity either way (assuming 1 cycle / day), but beyond that, unclamped cells will only deliver ~80% / 224Ah of initial capacity for ~2650 cycles / 7.2 years while use of a clamping fixture will deliver ~80% / 224Ah of initial capacity for ~4000 cycles / 11 years.

If the ~double rate of capacity loss over the first ~1500 cycles is all that is being referred to, that’s really not that big of a deal.

Looking closely at the unclamped data, however, it appears that unclamped capacity actually increases by ~2% initially.

So an unclamped 280Ah cell actually delivers over 285Ah (as several have characterized) and if you have a new 280Ah cell deliver 277-280Ah, it’s actually already been degraded by 2-3% (meaning 200-300 cycles equivalent).

200-300 cycle-equivalent capacity degradation is probably a fair swag for what to expect from the ‘Grade A Matched’ cells purchased from budget aftermarket resellers on Alibaba / AliExpress.

But if you get any cells delivering cycle-equivalent capacity-degradation levels of more than 2-3 times this level (meaning over 600 cycle-equivalent capacity degradation of over ~4%, that’s indication of a truly defective or substandard cell.

So cells delivering less than 270Ah tested at 25C are probably worth trying to exchange or get a replacement for but cells delivering over 270Ah (tested at 25C), probably not (since your just asking to exchange one cell for another likely to deliver equivalent capacity).
 
Sorry for the tangent but I am not familiar with "KgF". I assume you don't mean "Kelvin gram Fahrenheit". A quick search came up with "kilogram force" (kgf) but that requires a "per some area" to get a pressure. And I couldn't find any standard area that worked out to 300 when converted from 12psi (pounds per square inch). Would you be kind enough to indulge my curiosity and tell me what actual units you are comparing to 12psi? Or am I completely misreading what "300KgF / 12psi" means? Thanks.
300KgF corresponds to 660 pounds of force.

The Eve 280Ah cells have a width of 173.6mm and a height of 200.0mm for an area of 34,720mm^2 or 53.82”^2.

Applying 660 pounds of force over an area of 53.82”^2 translates to 12.264psi (pounds per square inch).

Eve has recommended to stay within 50% of this pressure at both extremes, meaning that any clamping fixture should be designed to stay under 18.4psi at 100% SOC (and above 6.2psi at full discharge, though since the only impact of under-clamping is reduced cycle life versus the possibility of damaging the cells from too much applied pressure, this is much less critical).
 
300KgF corresponds to 660 pounds of force.

The Eve 280Ah cells have a width of 173.6mm and a height of 200.0mm for an area of 34,720mm^2 or 53.82”^2.

Applying 660 pounds of force over an area of 53.82”^2 translates to 12.264psi (pounds per square inch).

Eve has recommended to stay within 50% of this pressure at both extremes, meaning that any clamping fixture should be designed to stay under 18.4psi at 100% SOC (and above 6.2psi at full discharge, though since the only impact of under-clamping is reduced cycle life versus the possibility of damaging the cells from too much applied pressure, this is much less critical).


Hard to imagine 660ftlbs of force is put on a threaded rod. Seems it would crush the cells
 
Hard to imagine 660ftlbs of force is put on a threaded rod. Seems it would crush the cells
I’ve got 4 rods so it is only 75KgF / 165 Lbs of force per thread…

The cells have no problem withstanding 660 lbs of force over that surface area.
 
I’ve got 4 rods so it is only 75KgF / 165 Lbs of force per thread…

The cells have no problem withstanding 660 lbs of force over that surface area.
Did the washers sink into the wood while torquing the nuts?

I'm using 2x10 wood and have 3 strings of batteries and have 8 rods

20210918_155059.jpg
 
Decided to go with plywood, threaded rod and found some valve springs from a small diesel engine.. although still waiting on another two. Whether the valve springs apply enough force or not I do not know, With some force I can pull the ply edge back with my hands easy enough.. but there's still another 2 springs to go on yet. Either way, too little compression is better than too much. Put some standard craft felt in-between cells, maybe not the most fire retardant material but works well enough. Also added 2 lengths Unistrut I had left over to the bottom, screwed up into the plywood with large washers which allows it to slide, this made a big difference to being able to actually pick the thing up.
 

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Decided to go with plywood, threaded rod and found some valve springs from a small diesel engine.. although still waiting on another two. Whether the valve springs apply enough force or not I do not know, With some force I can pull the ply edge back with my hands easy enough.. but there's still another 2 springs to go on yet. Either way, too little compression is better than too much. Put some standard craft felt in-between cells, maybe not the most fire retardant material but works well enough. Also added 2 lengths Unistrut I had left over to the bottom, screwed up into the plywood with large washers which allows it to slide, this made a big difference to being able to actually pick the thing up.
Are you using solid busbars?

The calibrated springs I bought did not cost much and allowed calibrated force to be applied through threaded-rod turn count (inches of compression).

I’m impressed you can lift your 8S pack. I’ve got 16S so it’s full disassembly if I ever need to move the battery…
 
Are you using solid busbars?

The calibrated springs I bought did not cost much and allowed calibrated force to be applied through threaded-rod turn count (inches of compression).

I’m impressed you can lift your 8S pack. I’ve got 16S so it’s full disassembly if I ever need to move the battery…
I won't be using the standard solid bus bars that came with the cells, I'm either going to make up my own from some high flex 40mm welding cable or try for some braided copper bars, I don't like the idea of going through the effort of letting them expand and contract just to put stress on the terminals.

I'll have to look into your springs.. maybe I'll come up with a way of testing the force of the ones I already have first though.

As for picking it up.. I think I'll be acquiring some help when it comes to moving it more than a couple feet lol.
 
I won't be using the standard solid bus bars that came with the cells, I'm either going to make up my own from some high flex 40mm welding cable or try for some braided copper bars, I don't like the idea of going through the effort of letting them expand and contract just to put stress on the terminals.
Good plan. I had the same concern and it is the reason I built a set of custom 2/0 cables with welder’s cable and lugs.
I'll have to look into your springs.. maybe I'll come up with a way of testing the force of the ones I already have first though.
Here’s a thought for you: if you have just a single calibrated spring, you can put it back-to-back with one of the springs you already have and then compress the pair until the calibrated spring compressed by exactly the amount to deliver target force (of 165 pounds of force if you are using 4 or 82.5 pounds of force if you are using 8).

The compression of your other springs tells you how much they need to be compressed to deliver the same force…

The problem with this plan is that the cost of purchasing one calibrated spring will be about the same as buying 4 (shipping dominates), so maybe you are better off rigging up a spring-supported platform on which you can place ~80 lbs of bricks.
As for picking it up.. I think I'll be acquiring some help when it comes to moving it more than a couple feet lol.
 
Hard to imagine 660ftlbs of force is put on a threaded rod. Seems it would crush the cells
It's NOT 660 ft-lbs, it's 660 lbs spread over the number of threaded rods you have. In my case, I have 4 threaded rods with springs. I know my spring's K values, so I measure my force by measuring the springs compression.
 

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It's NOT 660 ft-lbs, it's 660 lbs spread over the number of threaded rods you have. In my case, I have 4 threaded rods with springs. I know my spring's K values, so I measure my force by measuring the springs compression.


Those look like valve springs.

Well I have 8 rods but also 3 strings of batteries those rods are putting pressure on. I don't have them tightened up much at all. Just enough to close the gap on the lockwasher. I have a torque wrench so I guess I need to tighten up to 165ftlbs on each rod.

I would think over tightening would cause a lot of pressure on the aluminum cases.
 
Those look like valve springs.

Well I have 8 rods but also 3 strings of batteries those rods are putting pressure on. I don't have them tightened up much at all. Just enough to close the gap on the lockwasher. I have a torque wrench so I guess I need to tighten up to 165ftlbs on each rod.

I would think over tightening would cause a lot of pressure on the aluminum cases.

Why do you think you need 165 ftlbs???

Torque does not translate directly to linear force.

165ftlbs torque x 4 rods does not equal 660 lbs of force.
 
Those look like valve springs.

Well I have 8 rods but also 3 strings of batteries those rods are putting pressure on. I don't have them tightened up much at all. Just enough to close the gap on the lockwasher. I have a torque wrench so I guess I need to tighten up to 165ftlbs on each rod.

I would think over tightening would cause a lot of pressure on the aluminum cases.
Do NOT tighten to 165ft-lbs! That will FAR exceed the 12psi of pressure you want on the sides of the cells! I think you are confusing the TENSION required on the rods to get to 12psi with the TORQUE required to get there.

And yes, I'm using valve springs. They are cheap and easy to get.
 
Depending on the thread pitch and materials you might be able to hit 165lb with single digit ftlbs of torque lol

Putting them to 165ft lbs will crush the cells.

You need to do some annoyingly complex math to figure out the exact value. That's why springs are far better for this.
 
Why do you think you need 165 ftlbs???

Torque does not translate directly to linear force.

165ftlbs torque x 4 rods does not equal 660 lbs of force.


That's what im trying to get out of you guys an exact answer on ft lbs.
I already said I tightened up just enough to close the lock washer and that's it.
 
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