5th Wheel PowerHouse - Quattros vs AIO - Which is *better*?

[BinaryMaestro]

Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster.
I am building out a power system for our 46' 5th wheel as we begin our fulltime RV living.
We plan on being nomad's for several years staying mostly in boondocking sites. We work remotely and have dogs so we need to be able to run A/C's (if needed) and power our workstations, monitors, network, etc.
We have 3 standard RV dometic penguin II A/Cs (2 with heatpump). I know that I can't plan to run all 3 all day, but would like the system sized large enough that I could run all 3 plus the microwave, tv, fridge, computer if I wanted (even for just 1 hour). I can run the generator if I need to run them a lot. Ideally we would not be parked in a heat dome, but.. that might be hard to do sometimes.
This has led me down the ~10kva/10kw 48v inverter path. *I have not performed a power audit yet as we are still living / working in our house, it's currently 100+ degrees and we have no grid connection at the RV's location (family members land).
I would like to have 25-30kwh of power stored via ecoworthy server rack batteries in the storage passthrough. We are towing with a converted Semi Tractor "toterhome" so pinweight isn't a big issue. I will put as many solar panels on the roof as I can fit. I have not determined what panels due to required VOC for MPPT. Currently have 2 sets of wires running from roof to passthrough. Potentially adding an additional ground array (after real world testing) if needed.

As the weather starts cooling down I plan to begin installing the system so that I can move into the RV and work on completing the install (inevitably troubleshooting it) and breaking it in.
Since we're currently stationary, I can lay the panels on the ground for now to obtain power as well as running the generator when additional power/charging is needed. Then work on roof mount (unistrut) as time and weather permit.

At this point I've spent 100+ hours researching components and other builds. I've spoken with a couple professional RV solar installers (one who said 12v only for RVs, one said 48v only for this size). I'm not at all concerned about having 12v 48v and 120v systems in my RV. I'm not an electrician but work in the technology industry and have had many hobbies that use various battery types and voltages.
I've been looking at using Ecoworthy and SRNE components due to their cost, reputation, and receiving a random guy on the internet named Will's blessing. *Thanks for everything you do Will!*

I am now asking for your thoughts on the potential systems that I am considering and if anyone has any experience with the non-Victron components. Am I totally missing something?
Thanks for taking the time to read this and for providing any input.

46 ft 5th wheel
50amp 120v (no 240v appliances)
Onan 5500 Genset Single Phase 2x 30a breaker


System comparison
Batteries - Looking at 5-6x Ecoworthy V3 Server Rack 48v 100ah to be able to utilize comms.

2x Victron Quattro 5k - I know this has been done in many RV's and hits all my requirements. However, it's expensive, heavy, and large. Much more complex. Can still run 1 leg if an inverter fails. PV Charging/Inverter can fail separately. Min VOC less than 120v

2x SRNE 5k - 2x 120v SRNE 5k wired in split phase. Simple to install for a first timer. Cheaper and much lighter and smaller. 2 points of failure, but can still run 1 120v leg until component swapped.

SRNE 10k (or 6000XP) - Even more simple. Single point of failure (any failure would take the RV out). Perhaps a bit too big for the passthrough. About the same price as 2x 5ks. 8k vs 10k, basically same weight and form factor so why not get more power? *I have seen many use EG4's 6000xp with varied success, however if I can get more power for similar size and cost...)


Concerns
These are my biggest concerns that I'm having difficult time addressing.

Ground Bonding
I believe with the Quattro's, this is automatically done. From what I've read, this setting would need to be manually changed on the SRNE inverters.
How difficult is it to change on SRNE? We plan to primarily not use grid. If it only takes an additional 2 minutes as part of the camp setup when we park somewhere that has hookups, I'm not too worried about that.

Auto Gen Start
One must have feature is that once batteries get to X%, the generator would auto start to recharge the batteries and shutoff at specified logic.
Would also be nice to run generator for extra power if power consumption >Xw (like 3-7pm in the summer to power A/C's instead of just using PV/battery).

I have seen this done using the Cerbo and a timer relay control. (My Gen has a prime/stop and start, so not 2 wire. The timed relay can be programmed to prime for X, then start.)
I have no idea if this is possible with the SRNE and couldn't find much in the manual on the subject. I see the dry contact for Gen Start, but unsure about the programmability and if it would work with the timed relay controller like the Cerbo.

Autoformer Required
If I'm not mistaken, because my generator (Onan 5500) outputs 120v single phase, I will need to use and autoformer to run split phase into the inverters for charging bypass.
Alternatively I could wire a chargeverter to the generator, but is this as efficient?
Could I do 1 leg into the inverter and 1 into the chargeverter? Is this even worth it and would it require changing inverter settings every time I wanted to do this?

Idle Draw
From what I've read, Victron hands down wins idle draw..
*I don't know how exactly this works, but there will almost always be AC draw on the inverters. Refrigerator, TV's, Computers & networking equip,.
Is this idle draw less relevant when there is always a load?
That being said, Victron components take up significantly more space, weigh more, and cost significantly more.
For the cost and weight, I could add another 5kw of power which should offset any power loss and likely have a net gain.

Visual Assistant
I love to tinker and collect and view data. I will certainly be running Solar assistant or CerboGX.
As far as I know, I cannot issue remote commands to the inverter via Solar Assistant, only via Victron CerboGX to Victron inverter.
Is this correct? Is this ability really even that useful?


QTY Weight lbs (total) Cost USD
Option 1
Quattro 5kva 2 132 $3,359.14
MPPT Victron (TBD) 2 5 $700.00
Autoformer 100a 1 30 $510.00
Cerbo GX (kit) 1 $575.00
$5,144.14

Option 2
5k SRNE (SGP) 2 52 $1,518.00
MPPT 4 0 $0.00
Autoformer 100a 1 30 $510.00
Solar-Assistant 1 2 $210.00
$2,238.00

Option 3
10k SRNE (SGP) 1 54 $1,690.00
MPPT 2 0 $0.00
Autoformer 100a 1 30 $510.00
Solar-Assistant 1 2 $210.00
$2,410.00

Here it all is! Victron is over 2x the cost and 2x the weight.
I feel like I've been chasing the rabbit around the hole and I'm no closer to catching it. I really need to pull the trigger and get the components on order.
I would love any input or advice the community may be able to share.
Thanks again.

 

[Brucey]

I am now asking for your thoughts on the potential systems that I am considering and if anyone has any experience with the non-Victron components. Am I totally missing something?

Consider a Midnite Rosie 7048M, It can handle the 30A/50A switching and ground neutral bonding, huge surge.

MidNite Solar Rosie 7048 48V 7kW Inverter 120A Charger, High Surge UL 458 Mobile and UL 1741 Residential Inverter-Charger

Specifications: Standalone 7kW 120/240V inverter Max. battery charge current: 120A AC bypass rating: 60A Max. surge rating: 15,000VA Nominal battery voltage: 48V Compatible with Lithium, Lead-Acid, AGM, Flooded and other battery chemistries Two auxiliary terminals with 15 modes of...

www.currentconnected.com

 

[BinaryMaestro]

Consider a Midnite Rosie 7048M, It can handle the 30A/50A switching and ground neutral bonding, huge surge.

MidNite Solar Rosie 7048 48V 7kW Inverter 120A Charger, High Surge UL 458 Mobile and UL 1741 Residential Inverter-Charger

Specifications: Standalone 7kW 120/240V inverter Max. battery charge current: 120A AC bypass rating: 60A Max. surge rating: 15,000VA Nominal battery voltage: 48V Compatible with Lithium, Lead-Acid, AGM, Flooded and other battery chemistries Two auxiliary terminals with 15 modes of...

www.currentconnected.com

Ah, I have! The Rosie was actually pretty high up on my list too. Probably #4.
It's light and a single unit should be able to power the rig and support any surges.
I would love to support a USA company, even if it means paying a bit more (as long as I can still meet all my requirements).

The biggest concerns I had with it was the price (most expensive) and lack of documentation (of anyone doing a mobile install). The forum isn't very active either which doesn't give me confidence. I would say the Rosie appears to be the least beginner friendly. Mainly because Victron builds are everywhere. I've seen very few Rosie's, none mobile. Midnites SCC's require too much VOC to be used on mobile, so I would need something like Victron SCC's but would still need to buy an MGNP2 to configure Rosie.
Not that it couldn't be done, eventually, it just seems a bit more work to learn everything I need to know to get it setup properly for me.

 

[agtcovert]

Looks like you've done some great research. Few notes:

- The whole '12V only for RVs' is stupid, IMO. Maybe on a small TT or something like that, but if you want to run ACs (and you could run all of them in your rig with 2 5kva Quattros) the amp draws are significant. Sounds like you've got that, but yeah, just silly. I put in 48V in our rig - no regrets, no issues. I have 2 Multiplus 3kvas with an autotransformer to balance the legs. I wouldn't bother with an AT for 5kva inverters though.

- SRNEs have an option to enable or disable N/G relay. Mine currently are running the house, so I haven't needed to mess with that.

- For your 120V genny, I've seen installers just bring the hots together in the transfer switch without an autotransformer. I'd have to go look, but I'm sure I could find a video example again.

- I know Victron handles this; I don't know how a SRNE or 6000xp would. If you camp in a place where you need to dogbone down to 30A (or lower), you'd want to make sure the inverter can handle a single leg. On Victrons, it's just a matter of telling a pair of inverters not to switch as a group. L1 charges, L2 would still be inverting.

- Along with not switching as a group, there's an option in VE.Bus configuration to set L2 to 180 degree split phase, floating, with return to normal. Some campgrounds serve 3 phase power, so L-L you're getting ~208V and phased at 120 degrees, but it's 120V L-N. The Victron can still sync to that, use it, and then return back to normal.

- With Quattros and a generator, you wouldn't need a transfer switch per se. 2 AC inputs. Direct wire. AC1->Gen, AC2->shore by default.

- Victron does current limiting/power assisting.

- On a 46' rig, you can get loads of solar up there I'd imagine. You can also pick multiple SCCs that are smaller/less expensive. I use 2 150/35's and a 100/20. One for each side down our RV, one for the panels in the front.

Does it sound like I'm shilling for blue power? Yeah, guilty as charged. They are made for mobile application and have all the features to make your life easier. More $$, for sure. But no worrying about N/G bonds, you have options on laying out your solar.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like. I finished our RV 6 weeks ago. All fresh in my mind.

 

[justinm001]

I run 2x Quattro 5000s in split phase. The biggest part is you don't need an autotransformer, you can set in2 to not group and have one inverter pull up to 100a at 120v from your generator then still output 240v. It basically uses the other inverter as an inverter pulling from the battery while the one is charging. Super smart. On the 5000s you can input as low as like 13.2a/120v which is perfect for mooch docking from a 15a plug.

On top of that you can pull 100a/240v through it. So even if on 50a/240v shore it'll power assist and also pull battery so you can run all 3 ACs, plus microwave, coffee maker and anything else... Then it'll recharge the battery

My idle consumption is 80w combined.

Even though you don't have 240v appliances it's nice to use as you can pump twice the power in the cable.

My RVs 40ft and I fit 5040w, you could easily fit 7kw+ on yours since I'm sure it's much wider (mines a Prevost bus so skinny up top). You'll want multiple MPPTs and 48v. Having multiple MPPTs allow for being under a tree and it only affects that array and not all. Also nice to have redundancy and something to compare. I have 6 ACs and an all electric coach so can easily pump 15kw at times.

I just setup auto start gen on my CerboGX and it's amazing. I also have home assistant to automate turning things on/off based on batter charge.

 

[justinm001]

Couple more answers for you. Victron costs more because they're worth it. Its bigger and heavier because its built better.

I thought an autotransformer can only do 32A, so connecting 5500w genset and only getting 4000w or whatever isn't ideal. I have a 20kw genset and love running that thing for only 15 minutes if ever needed. I can barely hear it but its nice to have.

I'm not sure what the other inverters charge at but the quattros are 70a each so you're able to charge 7kw on top of whatever. This was a huge deal for me as we used to do daytrips and would pull into a CG late at night, plug in to get a charge and dump/fill then head out early morning, full tanks and battery ready for the day/weekend.

Idle consumption is a huge deal regardless. for the quattros its 40w each so 80w. This means with nothing running its burning 80w so when running 1000w its burning over 1080w. There's conversion losses and the less power you run the less efficient it is. Basically having the inverters on you're burning 2kwh per day on top of losses and everything else. Victron has published efficiency ratings you can find online.

If you like to tinker and use data then Victron is worth every single penny. Cerbogx has nodered built in their large image and everything's open. I'm able to access my RV data from my phone or anywhere, here's the look. I added ruuvi Bluetooth temp sensors around the coach to monitor the temps. I can turn my generator on remotely and make any changes from my pc/phone. My batteries BMS connects to the Cerbogx and tells it the SoC and manages the charging profiles, I then connect the CerbobGX to homeassistant and control everything. My coach sits in storage and its turning on all kinds of chargers and ACs and everything else to keep the coach comfy while its sitting in the hot sun.

I'd also definitely recommend getting an easytouch thermostat for your ACs. You can control 4 dometics all from your phone. Unfortunately there's no integrations or anything but its amazing. I have home assistant connected using a relay board to turn on/off the thermostats for my automation. Right now all the thermostats are connected to a single relay but I'm planning on breaking those out so I can better automate. I have 2 Furrions on a single dumb thermostat, 3 Dometic brisk2's on a easytouch and 1 dometic penguin 1 on another easytouch. Currently I have just the 3 brisk2s set to turn on and they stagger start based on temps so 80/85/90 degrees they turn on then when the batteries get to 80% SoC it'll power the thermostat until the SoC drops to 70% and turn all off. I don't control the Victron at all from homeassistant but haven't spent much time on it.

I love Victron and all their components. I even have another 12V system on my coach with its own cerbogx and everything. Worth every single penny. The only real gripes I have:
For whatever reason there's no backup/restore for the CerboGX. I just replaced this CerboGX with a new one and now have to figure out which temp is which and reconfigure some views and stuff.
You can't switch from split phase to single phase or turn off 1 inverter or anything without busting out a cable and using victron connect plugged into the inverters. This is the only reason I use the cable as everything else including configuration and updates can be done remotely. It would be AMAZING if I could shut down 1 inverter and half the outlets to get 40w idle consumption.

 

[HRTKD]

We are towing with a converted Semi Tractor "toterhome" so pinweight isn't a big issue.

Probably not a big issue, but it is an issue. The tow vehicle won't care, but the fifth wheel frame might. There are quite a few 5th wheels out there with Lippert frames that have failed. It's a design/manufacturing issue, but no matter who makes the frame, if you exceed what it can handle you'll have a problem.

It's good to see that you're keeping track of the weights. Add in the solar panels and mounting system, so you know the total of how much you're adding.

I'm on my second RV with PV and LiFePO4, both are full Victron systems. Both RV's had on-board generators and neither one needed auto start. Consider that feature for later after you decide if you really need it. It is a very rare situation that I need to run the generator to provide power to the RV. Most of the hours on the generators were from the monthly maintenance run.

As for all-in-one vs Victron, the former is a lot easier/faster to install. The latter is very reliable and has tremendous access should you want to get into the weeds with programming. But it's not necessary to program at that level unless you really want to. Connect the components, set some parameters, and it just works.

 

[BinaryMaestro]

Looks like you've done some great research. Few notes:

- The whole '12V only for RVs' is stupid, IMO. Maybe on a small TT or something like that, but if you want to run ACs (and you could run all of them in your rig with 2 5kva Quattros) the amp draws are significant. Sounds like you've got that, but yeah, just silly. I put in 48V in our rig - no regrets, no issues. I have 2 Multiplus 3kvas with an autotransformer to balance the legs. I wouldn't bother with an AT for 5kva inverters though.

- SRNEs have an option to enable or disable N/G relay. Mine currently are running the house, so I haven't needed to mess with that.

- For your 120V genny, I've seen installers just bring the hots together in the transfer switch without an autotransformer. I'd have to go look, but I'm sure I could find a video example again.

- I know Victron handles this; I don't know how a SRNE or 6000xp would. If you camp in a place where you need to dogbone down to 30A (or lower), you'd want to make sure the inverter can handle a single leg. On Victrons, it's just a matter of telling a pair of inverters not to switch as a group. L1 charges, L2 would still be inverting.

- Along with not switching as a group, there's an option in VE.Bus configuration to set L2 to 180 degree split phase, floating, with return to normal. Some campgrounds serve 3 phase power, so L-L you're getting ~208V and phased at 120 degrees, but it's 120V L-N. The Victron can still sync to that, use it, and then return back to normal.

- With Quattros and a generator, you wouldn't need a transfer switch per se. 2 AC inputs. Direct wire. AC1->Gen, AC2->shore by default.

- Victron does current limiting/power assisting.

- On a 46' rig, you can get loads of solar up there I'd imagine. You can also pick multiple SCCs that are smaller/less expensive. I use 2 150/35's and a 100/20. One for each side down our RV, one for the panels in the front.

Does it sound like I'm shilling for blue power? Yeah, guilty as charged. They are made for mobile application and have all the features to make your life easier. More $$, for sure. But no worrying about N/G bonds, you have options on laying out your solar.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like. I finished our RV 6 weeks ago. All fresh in my mind.

Thanks for your feedback!

Right! Our 5th wheel is a mobile home, not a 12v "camper"... 48v just makes more sense. The only downside is still needing a 12v battery to power high draw items like the gen start and hydraulic leveling/slides.

I had forgotten about issues being present when using dogbones/ single legs. If I went with 2x of the SRNE inverters, then theoretically it shouldn't be an issue. Would certainly have to change the settings on the inverters though.

3 phase power at campgrounds was something I hadn't thought about at all. It's good to know that the Victron can handle this without issue though.

I may reach out to you in the upcoming weeks with some questions.
Did document your installation anywhere that I could see?

 

[justinm001]

Thanks for your feedback!

Right! Our 5th wheel is a mobile home, not a 12v "camper"... 48v just makes more sense. The only downside is still needing a 12v battery to power high draw items like the gen start and hydraulic leveling/slides.

I had forgotten about issues being present when using dogbones/ single legs. If I went with 2x of the SRNE inverters, then theoretically it shouldn't be an issue. Would certainly have to change the settings on the inverters though.

3 phase power at campgrounds was something I hadn't thought about at all. It's good to know that the Victron can handle this without issue though.

I may reach out to you in the upcoming weeks with some questions.
Did document your installation anywhere that I could see?

Put a 12v battery for the genstart and slides then just a charger.

For camping with only single leg 120v you can add a 120v charger. I'd see if I could find 2 that do 12a then run 1 if 15a and both on 30a. Have them charge the 48v batteries then the inverter drain them. Not super efficient but doesn't really matter. Plus it's nice to have some backup chargers

 

[BinaryMaestro]

Couple more answers for you. Victron costs more because they're worth it. Its bigger and heavier because its built better.

I thought an autotransformer can only do 32A, so connecting 5500w genset and only getting 4000w or whatever isn't ideal. I have a 20kw genset and love running that thing for only 15 minutes if ever needed. I can barely hear it but its nice to have.

I'm not sure what the other inverters charge at but the quattros are 70a each so you're able to charge 7kw on top of whatever. This was a huge deal for me as we used to do daytrips and would pull into a CG late at night, plug in to get a charge and dump/fill then head out early morning, full tanks and battery ready for the day/weekend.

Idle consumption is a huge deal regardless. for the quattros its 40w each so 80w. This means with nothing running its burning 80w so when running 1000w its burning over 1080w. There's conversion losses and the less power you run the less efficient it is. Basically having the inverters on you're burning 2kwh per day on top of losses and everything else. Victron has published efficiency ratings you can find online.

If you like to tinker and use data then Victron is worth every single penny. Cerbogx has nodered built in their large image and everything's open. I'm able to access my RV data from my phone or anywhere, here's the look. I added ruuvi Bluetooth temp sensors around the coach to monitor the temps. I can turn my generator on remotely and make any changes from my pc/phone. My batteries BMS connects to the Cerbogx and tells it the SoC and manages the charging profiles, I then connect the CerbobGX to homeassistant and control everything. My coach sits in storage and its turning on all kinds of chargers and ACs and everything else to keep the coach comfy while its sitting in the hot sun.

I'd also definitely recommend getting an easytouch thermostat for your ACs. You can control 4 dometics all from your phone. Unfortunately there's no integrations or anything but its amazing. I have home assistant connected using a relay board to turn on/off the thermostats for my automation. Right now all the thermostats are connected to a single relay but I'm planning on breaking those out so I can better automate. I have 2 Furrions on a single dumb thermostat, 3 Dometic brisk2's on a easytouch and 1 dometic penguin 1 on another easytouch. Currently I have just the 3 brisk2s set to turn on and they stagger start based on temps so 80/85/90 degrees they turn on then when the batteries get to 80% SoC it'll power the thermostat until the SoC drops to 70% and turn all off. I don't control the Victron at all from homeassistant but haven't spent much time on it.

I love Victron and all their components. I even have another 12V system on my coach with its own cerbogx and everything. Worth every single penny. The only real gripes I have:
For whatever reason there's no backup/restore for the CerboGX. I just replaced this CerboGX with a new one and now have to figure out which temp is which and reconfigure some views and stuff.
You can't switch from split phase to single phase or turn off 1 inverter or anything without busting out a cable and using victron connect plugged into the inverters. This is the only reason I use the cable as everything else including configuration and updates can be done remotely. It would be AMAZING if I could shut down 1 inverter and half the outlets to get 40w idle consumption.

View attachment 317198

Wow, ton of information here!
Thanks for sharing your build and screenshots.

Victron does have a 100a Autoformer that I was looking at, but if I can get full power from the generator then I shouldn't need one.

I wasn't aware of the NodeRed integration. I'll definitely check that out. The ability to check the SOC and start generator remotely is great peace of mind for us while we're away and the dogs are staying...

Last month I installed the EasyTouch thermostat and EasyStarts to the A/C's. I am very happy with the products. I hadn't looked into EasyTouch integration yet, so that's unfortunate to hear. At least with the app I can control it while away since we'll have wifi in the RV. (Well, as long as their service is alive.)
I've seen a couple mentions of the Ruuvi sensors. I'll need to grab a couple of those.

You've certainly provided some good insight and reasons for using Victron. All of these are integrations that I would like to have in my system.

Sounds like I need to make some cardboard boxes with the dimensions of the quattro 5k's and see if I can make them fit.

 

[justinm001]

Wow, ton of information here!
Thanks for sharing your build and screenshots.

Victron does have a 100a Autoformer that I was looking at, but if I can get full power from the generator then I shouldn't need one.

I wasn't aware of the NodeRed integration. I'll definitely check that out. The ability to check the SOC and start generator remotely is great peace of mind for us while we're away and the dogs are staying...

Last month I installed the EasyTouch thermostat and EasyStarts to the A/C's. I am very happy with the products. I hadn't looked into EasyTouch integration yet, so that's unfortunate to hear. At least with the app I can control it while away since we'll have wifi in the RV. (Well, as long as their service is alive.)
I've seen a couple mentions of the Ruuvi sensors. I'll need to grab a couple of those.

You've certainly provided some good insight and reasons for using Victron. All of these are integrations that I would like to have in my system.

Sounds like I need to make some cardboard boxes with the dimensions of the quattro 5k's and see if I can make them fit.

They make a 100a and a 32a. The only difference is how much can pass they the device in 240v. I believe even the 100a only has a 32a neutral so it can only handle 32amps of 120v.

If getting ruuvi, but a Bluetooth USB adapter. I use a sena one. The CerboGX Bluetooth is kinda weak. It can be added later though just a plug and play.

The notifications built into Victron are amazing. It's so nice to have peace of mind knowing you're good. If the system is shutoff you'll get a notification on your phone. This way you feel comfortable knowing they're safe and cool in there. I check my interior temps all the time when my RV is in storage

 

[Brucey]

Ah, I have! The Rosie was actually pretty high up on my list too. Probably #4.
It's light and a single unit should be able to power the rig and support any surges.
I would love to support a USA company, even if it means paying a bit more (as long as I can still meet all my requirements).

The biggest concerns I had with it was the price (most expensive) and lack of documentation (of anyone doing a mobile install). The forum isn't very active either which doesn't give me confidence. I would say the Rosie appears to be the least beginner friendly. Mainly because Victron builds are everywhere. I've seen very few Rosie's, none mobile. Midnites SCC's require too much VOC to be used on mobile, so I would need something like Victron SCC's but would still need to buy an MGNP2 to configure Rosie.
Not that it couldn't be done, eventually, it just seems a bit more work to learn everything I need to know to get it setup properly for me.

Definitely go with the blue option then, huge amount of experience here on the forums to help you through. As you mentioned the barcelona and hawkes bay 600V sccs just don't make sense for a mobile install, its possible to get Rosie to show up in vrm as something other than just dc load but takes an energy meter. Maybe Midnite will come out with a lower voltage controller apart from the Classics in time, but seems like a duplication.

 

[BinaryMaestro]

Hello again, I'm back to the drawing board with this project and hoping to iron out the details and begin the installation over the winter holidays. (and hopefully save a few dollars with the BF sales...) Part of me is telling myself that I should've just paid someone, lol.. However, I know that I would never be happy with what they did though, that's the DIY curse.
I've been trying to wrap my head around when/why/how to fuse and disconnect properly. This mixed with some conflicting information has my head in a spin.. I'm trying to understand everything and make the correct choice in components and design for what I'm trying to do. I feel like I'm getting very close but still have a few questions. I figured I'd just revive this thread and see what y'all have to say.

After the above discussion I have decided to go with Victron components.
2x 48v Quattro 5kva's is what I'm leaning towards.
At this time, I have only purchased 6 eco-worthy 100ah server rack batteries.

Here is the diagram that I put together. (I had to give up on making the lines neat. LibreDraw was not being cooperative.) I know not CAN/BUS connections are on here. The main components/wiring/fusing/disconnects is what I'm trying to nail down first.

Starting at the top, I plan to use the existing ATS to add a secondary 50a shore plug inlet into the front of the RV. Our RV is 46' and the power inlet is in the very back. Having 2 outlets will allow me to worry less about where the pedestal is located.

I currently don't have any 240v loads, but am looking to have CheapHeat 240v heater added next time I return to the dealer. I figure I may as well go ahead and wire up a 240v breaker when joining the 2 inverter outputs. (This is mainly for passthrough use when plugged into 240v shore power. I don't plan to run a 240v heater from battery.)

I do have a few questions that I would appreciate any input from the community on.



AC in/out breakers
I see many builds where no one is putting breakers before/after there inverters. I'd like to have a set coming from the ATS (2 shore powers) and going into the RV's AC panel. It looks like some MCB's would work great for this? Anyone have experience or reccomend any MCB's?

48V
Battery switching & fusing:
In my current diagram I have the "Class T Power In" being utilized to fuse the 2 banks before they come into the Switch/Shunt/Distributor. I plan to have 2 banks of 3 with jumper wires connecting the 3 batteries in parallel. This form factor should fit in the space I have for the batteries.
The EcoWorthy batteries have breakers on each battery. Each BMS can output 100A max. Victron states to use a 200A fuse in the inverter manual. I can fuse the distributor/inverter connection with a 200A mega fuse.

If I were to use the Lynx Power in, then my wire runs are unprotected from the batteries. What is the point of having the fuses at the load end of the cable? Mainly was looking at the power in for the clean install. It'd be about the same price as 2 class T fuse holders and lugs.
Am I just over complicating things by trying to do 2 banks instead of 1, or just run all 6 to buss bars,then into Shunt/Switch/Distributor?

For wiring size I'm looking at 1awg, which should support ~210A. Theoretically this could be overloaded if one bank shorted and both inverters were pulling high amps. Should I size up to 4/0 just in case, or is this just overkill?

Grounding:
Should I be grounding the battery chassis to the RV chassis?
I've seen some conflicting information about this in a mobile setup but don't really understand why.

PV
*I have really began to work this out yet. The RV is in storage and I need to get on the roof and take measurements to play around with panel size and placement. I'd like to figure out and get the rest of the system installed before worrying with root mounting and panel layout. Adding a couple SCC's into the distributor should be relatively easy once everything else is in place.

Currently I have 2 pairs of 4 awg 105c welding cable which was installed by the dealer (who routinely does this for large 12v systems). This should be rated for 160A per ABYC.. I feel like this is overkill especially for a 48v system. I'm temped to run 3 or 4 pairs of 10awg cable down so that I can have more SCC's supporting multiple panel size. Then take that 4awg and use it to wire up everything else (that's not battery/inverter).

I've seen many different PV disconnects. Does a breaker disconnect actually provide any protection, or are people many using it for cost and assumed protection? I assume I would still need to fuse the panels depending on panel Isc and configuration?

12V
My plan is to keep the 12v RV battery system in place (maybe replace some of their cheap breakers while moving things around) and charge this up with a MPPT pulling the ~52v as "solar" to charge the 12v at specific time or SOC. This would be cheaper than Sterling Power BB4812 ($400).
The battery is a 165ah "dual purpose" LiTime battery which should (haven't tested yet) provide enough cranking amps for the generator starter and 12v RV loads. Starter can pull 500+ amps (can't find exact # right now).
Can/should I still fuse the battery? (currently there is no fuse to generator or stock inverter*.) I've read that a starter would melt faster than the wire supplying current would.
I'm thinking I could add a dual MRBF bypassing fuse on the Gen +, but fuse the busbar.

*I plan to keep the stock 12v 1000ah inverter since I already have it and as a backup to at least keep the refrigerator running in case of any 45v issues. (The stock setup utilizes a small transfer switch for that circuit that I will keep in.)


Thanks for reading this far.. I greatly appreciate your time.

 

[HRTKD]

The Cerbo GX will run off of 48 volts. I chose to add a 48 volt secondary busbar hanging off of the Lynx Distributor for small loads. The Lynx Distributor didn't have enough studs for all the small stuff and the MEGA fuses don't come in small enough amp ratings. So the Cerbo GX is wired to that secondary 48 volt busbar. I didn't want the Cerbo GX to be drawing from the 48-12 converter as there was going to be enough drawing from the converter already. The Cerbo GX comes with an in-line fuse holder, so I ended up double fusing to the Cerbo GX. Overkill.

Hang an MRBF fuse holder on the 48 volt secondary busbar so that the wires to your 48-12 are protected.

A breaker between each solar charge controller and the Lynx Distributor is handy for ensuring that the solar charge controller is powered down when working on the system.

Your PV disconnect shows four wires coming it. Are you sure it supports that?

 

[justinm001]

I'd absolutely have a breaker before and after the inverter. I use a normal home single breaker box. Technically it's not necessary to have on inbound because the pedestal but I don't trust a pedestal breaker that gets flipped on/off daily as a lightswitch.

1awg is very small. It's 130amps (6500w at 50v). 2/0 is 175amps. Bigger is always better as it's less voltage drop. I have same dual quattro with dual rack batteries (sok) and ran 2/0 everywhere, except between the batteries and I forgot I ran 1/0 (ran out of wire) and realized that's why I had voltage issues under load.

Yes ground at the distributor. There's an extra port in the middle of the ground just for this

Why use a shunt? With a BMS you really don't need, unless you want aux voltage monitor or something.

 

[BinaryMaestro]

The Cerbo GX will run off of 48 volts. I chose to add a 48 volt secondary busbar hanging off of the Lynx Distributor for small loads. The Lynx Distributor didn't have enough studs for all the small stuff and the MEGA fuses don't come in small enough amp ratings. So the Cerbo GX is wired to that secondary 48 volt busbar. I didn't want the Cerbo GX to be drawing from the 48-12 converter as there was going to be enough drawing from the converter already. The Cerbo GX comes with an in-line fuse holder, so I ended up double fusing to the Cerbo GX. Overkill.

Hang an MRBF fuse holder on the 48 volt secondary busbar so that the wires to your 48-12 are protected.

A breaker between each solar charge controller and the Lynx Distributor is handy for ensuring that the solar charge controller is powered down when working on the system.

Your PV disconnect shows four wires coming it. Are you sure it supports that?

Good point about wiring the Cerbo to a small busbar. My thought was that I would run it off the 12v so that my "backup" system would always be powering it.

Yes, I will fuse the converter/charger. Was trying to determine if I would need a second distributor, but a small 48v busbar seems logical.

I thought I had found one that supports 4 wires, but ultimately it was just a placeholder since I'm not sure how many strings I will be utilizing or if a breaker would be better that a disconnect.

I'd absolutely have a breaker before and after the inverter. I use a normal home single breaker box. Technically it's not necessary to have on inbound because the pedestal but I don't trust a pedestal breaker that gets flipped on/off daily as a lightswitch.

1awg is very small. It's 130amps (6500w at 50v). 2/0 is 175amps. Bigger is always better as it's less voltage drop. I have same dual quattro with dual rack batteries (sok) and ran 2/0 everywhere, except between the batteries and I forgot I ran 1/0 (ran out of wire) and realized that's why I had voltage issues under load.

Yes ground at the distributor. There's an extra port in the middle of the ground just for this

Why use a shunt? With a BMS you really don't need, unless you want aux voltage monitor or something.

The pedestal breaker is my concern as well.. I don't trust them either.

Am I not looking at wire sizing correctly? I thought 1awg w/ 90c insulator was good for 210a? source
If you were having issues because of a 1/0 vs 2/0, that's an easy enough fix for me to just go bigger. I don't have any wire currently (other than that 4awg solar run).

Batteries grounded to distributor. Thanks.

I read somewhere that BMS often have difficulties measuring small loads and that a shunt would be more accurate. Though with the 48v the loads are mainly the inverter and 48-12 charger (and Cerbo if I move that over). The 12v I feel would be needed to see 12v SOC and usage since the BMS only talks to it's crappy app over bluetooth.

 

[Brucey]

I read somewhere that BMS often have difficulties measuring small loads and that a shunt would be more accurate. Though with the 48v the loads are mainly the inverter and 48-12 charger (and Cerbo if I move that over). The 12v I feel would be needed to see 12v SOC and usage since the BMS only talks to it's crappy app over bluetooth.

I would absolutely go with open loop and a smartshunt to track soc, especially if you have small loads.

 

[HRTKD]

Am I not looking at wire sizing correctly? I thought 1awg w/ 90c insulator was good for 210a? source

I don't use the wire gauge charts. Instead I use a wire gauge calculator that requires length, voltage and amperage.

Interactive Wire Size Calculator

Battery Chargers, Inverters, Solar Components, and Wiring Supplies for Boats, RVs, and Off-Grid Applications.

baymarinesupply.com

 

[justinm001]

I don't use the wire gauge charts. Instead I use a wire gauge calculator that requires length, voltage and amperage.

Interactive Wire Size Calculator

Battery Chargers, Inverters, Solar Components, and Wiring Supplies for Boats, RVs, and Off-Grid Applications.

baymarinesupply.com

Also that's max rating and 90C is like 200F and that's at optimum conditions. I don't want 200F wires running around my RV underneath me. It's also weird their rating is so much lower in engine room.

The issue also is voltage drop, what's 1-2v on 12v is 4-8V on 48v.

Oversize, keep it cool and not worry. Even with all the professional tools you're not going to get everything torqued perfectly

 

[justinm001]

I would absolutely go with open loop and a smartshunt to track soc, especially if you have small loads.

This is interesting and didn't know that. I have a lynx shunt but use my BMS for SoC and everything. I say I don't have DC loads since just the Cerbo (plus all its accessories) so its losses go somewhere. I always feel the BMS is right and the shunt isn't.

Also OP instead of 2 shunts you can use aux voltage port on one to just monitor the voltage. you won't get SoC but still have an idea. I run a 2nd shunt for my generator like your photo as I used a lynx shunt and it doesn't have an aux voltage and needed one for the engine starter voltage monitor

 

[HRTKD]

I trust my Victron shunt's state of charge far more than the BMS' state of charge. I do have continuous low amp loads.

 

[justinm001]

I trust my Victron shunt's state of charge far more than the BMS' state of charge. I do have continuous low amp loads.

So for the battery monitor would you set it to the shunt and not the BMS? I'm pretty sure this is what the screens and stuff uses.

 

[HRTKD]

I use open loop so I don't see any BMS-related data on my Cerbo GX. For all intents and purposes, I ignore the BMS except for the cell balances which I review through the app on my phone.