A medium small DIY system eg4-6000XP with battery and a grid ( pass thru ) for battery charging

[dieselxj]

Good afternoon . So now everyone is busy working on their new holiday toys myself included. Hopefully now i am on a better track to success with new components. My goal is to be electrically off grid while in town. Or as close as i can get to Zero grid...

My house is small, old, and beat to $#!t. The house is all electric except hot water. I run a 2 ton R410 heat pump, that works pretty hard in the summer but it gets the job done. My other big loads are the car charger, stove, and clothes drier I am sorry but i don't have a very good average for my consumption, as for the past 20 years or so i worked away from home most of the time. A close approximation for a high daily load is 30Kwh. That does not include much car charging though.

my system
up to 20 X 385watt Canadian Solar panels mono face
1x EG4 6000XP inverter
2x EG4 Lifepower4 V2 batteries 100Ah 48v 5.12Kwh
2x Eco Worthy 5.12Kwh 100Ah 48v server rack batteries

My first try with the 6000xp and the 2x eg4 5.12Kwh batteries was good, BUT as expected i ran out of battery in the morning sort of after sunrise and before good sun. This was with only 9x panels installed in a almost flat array on top of a flat deck cargo trailer. For now and most likely forever. the panels will not be touching or anchored to the dirt or any permanent structure, (non permanent).
The first little set back got me the next 2x eco flow 5.12Kwh batteries. And that is where the system stalled.

It seems i have some options from here to achieve my goals with what i have.

So far it seems like my best option is to set up the battery charger/grid side of the inverter. i have a copy of the 6000XP wiring options. I need to pick a method.

I just got a disappointingly high $ estimate to have a transfer switch installed, That was the only thing i could say to the electrician that he understood how to quote
The electrician said i might be over thinking this. Can anyone help with a good economical way to get my 50amp grid supply set up. I don't think i want the inverter to " bypass " and switch off the inverter and on to 50 amps of grid power. I just want to use the grid to charge the batteries .

i think i had some misunderstanding about some of the 6000xp capabilities.

The inverter will not share the load with the grid. . . So NO 6000watts from the inverter PLUS the remainder of the load (up to 50 amps) from the grid. It is either 50 amps from inverter to house . Or inverter off, and 50 amps from grid thru the inverter , then to the house? Is this correct ?

The 50 amps from the grid is NOT ALL available for battery charging ?? i don't understand this yet. How much is available for battery charging then???? And it seems maybe a delicate dance to keep the solar flowing and the batteries grid charging.

any help is appreciated,

not sure what i will do next, if the 20Kwh of battery is not enough. I really just wanted a wrecked EV battery for my home battery, but maybe that will have to wait for my next system

thanks

 

[TM48]

I'd recommend a 12000xp. 50 amps of inverter and 100 amps of pass though. I don't charge from grid...just shift loads to grid and wait for the sun.

 

[dieselxj]

thanks, I am not ready to give up on the 6000xp just yet. and i'm not sure that will solve my problem of battery charging with no sun.

i would like to get more details on how to grid charge my batteries while the inverter is still on and running the load.

 

[dieselxj]

Looking at the eg4 set up app. trying to sort out how that grid charging works. I think I set myself up for difficulty with the 2 EW batteries. and open loop control. But heck i was having troube understanding the closed loop eg4 charging too

One other problem, My main service disconnect and main breaker panel are all in the same box. The meter loop is also super close to the breaker panel

 

[TM48]

thanks, I am not ready to give up on the 6000xp just yet. and i'm not sure that will solve my problem of battery charging with no sun.

i would like to get more details on how to grid charge my batteries while the inverter is still on and running the load.

You can charge batteries and power loads at the same time with grid. The spec on input power is 37.5 amps at 240v. That's the max (9000 watts)

 

[dieselxj]

ok i guess that explains the 50/37.5 amp pass through for the grid. But i cant' have solar and grid on at the same time correct?

It has been a few weeks but the last time i talked to eg4. i want to say the lady said even though the grid is a 50 amp circuit that the AC charger section of inverter was only rated at i think she said 20 amps DC, that seems really low

Can anyone confirm this.

Also has anyone used a line side tap for the grid connection?

 

[TM48]

https://eg4electronics.com/wp-conte...®-6000XP-Monitoring-System-Working-Modes.pdf

This explains it a little better

Grid can supply the load though bypass while solar charges the batteries. This is how I use it as it doesn't suffer the ~10% efficiency loss.

 

[dieselxj]

thanks TM48 that is new and interesting. Am i correct that the 6000XP uses direct DC charging from the solar? I.s that the efficiency loss you mention? i can see that. Are you charging open or closed loop? As near as i can tell if i want the EW batteries in the syste,m i will have to be open loop

I just had to get a new meter loop installed not even 2 years ago. I was so busy at work i did not pay attention to not having a dedicated service disconnect. If i had done that then . i could have taken care of the rest on my own. This guy wanted $7k to add the service disconnect and a transfer switch.
Am i wrong or is that a bit on the high side. Am i missing something . is there a simpler way to get that little bit out of the grid.

it is hard to type what i think i want.

but it goes something like this. Grid into the meter loop, out of the meter loop into a 200 amp service disconnect. Out of the 200a service disconnect into a next box that would have a 200a breaker feeding the 200 amp breaker in the main breaker cabinet ( yes i know its redundant). Also in that "next" box would be at least 1x 50 amp breaker to feed the 6000xp 50 amp grid. and maybe another 50 amp for Generator. It looks mostly like diagram #7 from the 6000xp wiring styles except that in the eg4 diagram they call my "next box" a 200 amp feed tap

diagram to follow

 

[dieselxj]

View attachment 277765

 

[dieselxj]

sorry for the giant pic

 

[dieselxj]

the 200a feed tap turns into a 3 breaker panel from the previous hand drawn pic

 

[TM48]

There are ways to simplify the wiring better then in that diagram. It really gets down to how much power you need and your existing panels. I exchanged a simple meter base for a load center w/meter on the outside of the house. From there I sent power though a 80 amp breaker to my inverters. I used a critical load panel. If I were to just reuse my existing 200 amp inside load center I would have just placed an interlock on the main breaker. That is way cheaper than a disconnect. The mistake I made was not taking over my existing load center. I would have saved a lot of rewiring.
You really should do an energy audit. Knowing how much power you use and when is important for proper sizing. If you oversize you just spent too much but if you under size you will be disappointed.
I'm running in closed loop. I have two 6000xps, three wall mount batteries and 12.3 kw of PV. I reach 100% charge almost every day. And yes I think 7k is too much to add a disconnect and a switch.

 

[TM48]

your drawing is ok but you can save money by eliminating the switch and replace it with a generator interlock on your main panel. The 50 amp breaker needs a retainer and the interlock keeps you from feeding the panel from both grid and inverter. My only concern is if that inverter is enough.

 

[solar17007]

thanks TM48 that is new and interesting. Am i correct that the 6000XP uses direct DC charging from the solar? I.s that the efficiency loss you mention? i can see that. Are you charging open or closed loop? As near as i can tell if i want the EW batteries in the syste,m i will have to be open loop

I just had to get a new meter loop installed not even 2 years ago. I was so busy at work i did not pay attention to not having a dedicated service disconnect. If i had done that then . i could have taken care of the rest on my own. This guy wanted $7k to add the service disconnect and a transfer switch.
Am i wrong or is that a bit on the high side. Am i missing something . is there a simpler way to get that little bit out of the grid.

it is hard to type what i think i want.

but it goes something like this. Grid into the meter loop, out of the meter loop into a 200 amp service disconnect. Out of the 200a service disconnect into a next box that would have a 200a breaker feeding the 200 amp breaker in the main breaker cabinet ( yes i know its redundant). Also in that "next" box would be at least 1x 50 amp breaker to feed the 6000xp 50 amp grid. and maybe another 50 amp for Generator. It looks mostly like diagram #7 from the 6000xp wiring styles except that in the eg4 diagram they call my "next box" a 200 amp feed tap

diagram to follow

I’m using a 10k Solis Hybrid inverter, battery emulator, and a Tesla model Y long range battery. 5k for Tesla battery and hybrid inverter, can charge from sun, generator or grid

 

[dieselxj]

Thanks again TM48. I am pretty confident on my audit even though said i wasn't ; sorry about that. On a low day i use maybe 3 to 6 Kwh, On a high day with no car charge it can be 27 to about 32 Kwh. I can easily adjust if need be. And I feel i can just use the car as a catch all for any extra power.
I'm not yelling. In case anyone is curious. & it is worth noting..... ELECTRIC CARS USE A LOT a LOT! OF ELECTRICITY! IT DOES NOT TAKE MUCH TO PUT 50+kWH IN THE CAR.

I did not want to have to re-place my or re wire my 200amp breaker panel, as i have room left in the panel, and it is running the whole house and workshop. I do have one of those " in the panel " little transfer switches. It is a pretty cheap and simple solution. i did not install it . Unless i am missing something and i hope i am believe me, It won't work on its own for me. As i am missing the dedicated service disconnect. With the all in one disconnect/breaker panel, I need the main breaker on to get the 50amp grid to the inverter

If i understand you correctly and you had it to do over again you would have stayed in your original panel. correct? Also your " load center with a meter " is that what is used to sell back power??

 

[dieselxj]

Hi TM48, can you draw me a pic of what you mean about the generator interlock. and where you would put it in the main breaker panel. I can get a pi of where mine goes. but it slides back and forth and will not allow my main 200a disconnect and the top right most breaker from both being on at the same time . essentially allowing my inverter load to tie in with the rest of the circut breakers, and not back feed the grid thru my one and only 200 amp disconnect.

 

[dieselxj]

hi Solar17007 That is so cool i don't have words. Are you using a Dala emulator?? he is on you tube. i was really close to giving his emulator a try., with a wrecked model 3. But i needed or felt i needed instant gratification. And i could not easily find a high input voltage inverter.
I have a little under $4000 in batteries and it makes me sick to my stomach at what i paid $ per Kwh compared to a wrecked EV

 

[dieselxj]

oops

 

[solar17007]

hi Solar17007 That is so cool i don't have words. Are you using a Dala emulator?? he is on you tube. i was really close to giving his emulator a try., with a wrecked model 3. But i needed or felt i needed instant gratification. And i could not easily find a high input voltage inverter.
I have a little under $4000 in batteries and it makes me sick to my stomach at what i paid $ per Kwh compared to a wrecked EV

the solis inverter is a HV inverter

 

[solar17007]

It is a pretty cool setup, I’m actually installing it in a work trailer, solar panels on top and a generator and grid hookup to charge the Tesla pack.

 

[solar17007]

If you google GitHub battery emulator it will come right up with all instructions

 

[solar17007]

Solis Inverters, S6-EH1P11.4K-H-US-APST, Hybrid Inverter 11.4KW S6 This is my inverter

 

[dieselxj]

solar17007 That inverter does seem the way to go. No voltage conversions needed just stay at or below 480vdc for everything.

Is it really that simple,?

I did not see all of your inverter specs. It did say 480v input, is that for solar and battery input? When i was looking i saw a Victron, that said 480 input, but i could not tell if that was solar string voltage or battery input voltge. and i just found it hard to believe that Dala emulator could be that easy. I can be pretty (computer low voltage ignorant).
Did you have to do a pyro fuse replace in the tesla battery? Did you get a whole car or just a battery?

 

[TM48]

If i understand you correctly and you had it to do over again you would have stayed in your original panel. correct? Also your " load center with a meter " is that what is used to sell back power??

No I don't sell back power. I want to be 100% independent from the Poco. You cannot feed power from a single load center and send the inverter's power back to the same panel. Your drawing won't work as depicted because the line to the inverter is not breakered or fused. The entire right hand side of your drawing could be replace with one outside combo panel with meter,breakers and disconnect. My setup is like that.

I still think you're under sizing the inverter. You size the inverter for the peak load not the daily kwh.

 

[dieselxj]

Good morning Tm48 thanks for sticking with me. You may be correct about the inverter being undersized and time will tell. But for the time being i have what is here. I am not willing to throw away $1300 unless it fails. All indications are it will be fine. i just have to pay a little attention to my load.
My hand drawing is a bit oversimplified and i misused the symbology for the components, They are all circuit breakers There are no switches in the system . Back in the day on aircraft we called them switch breakers. The box with the 3 lines immediatly down stream from the new main disconnect is the issue. It has a a redundant 200 amp breaker, then the other 2 50a are also breakers. And please do not forget that there are 50 amp breakers at the physical inverter. 3 x 50a breakers there. Load, grid, and gen.
i think i may still be missing something . but i still don't see how to get around having the 2x 200 a breakers . one at the main breaker panel which i cant remove and the other in the 3 breaker box .

i am going to separate want from need and required by code. As i only know what i want. i am perfectly willling to change what i want for what i need or is required by law.
So I want to be able to have a emergency disconnect for the whole system as the first thing out of the meter. I honestly don't care if that is a breaker or a big as knife switch . actually big ass outdoor , outside of the box activated switch would be fine. My 200a breaker panel is a pain to open , an in a emergency I want to just be able to throw a switch and not have to mess with a enclosure door.
Next I want a 50 amp grid supply that is upstream and isolated from the 200a breaker panel. that will feed the inverter grid 50a breaker.

that is all the wants for this little section

now i need to figure out what is needed and what is required by code?

TM48 can you draw me a little pic of how i can eliminate one of the 200a breakers and still get the 50a grid suppy to the inverter with out back feeding