A.R.E. wind turbine

[Ptom]

I've had wind power since before solar panels were commonly available, over 40 years anyway, and solar also more recently. My current machine is about 17 years old and has performed like a champ, with ZERO maintenance. But the other day, I noticed the Windy Boy inverter (made by SMA) was indicating 0 watts, with a 15 mph wind, and the resistor load warm warm. This now discontinued and not supported turbine has a very elaborate "voltage clamp" system, needed in a grid tied turbine to keep it under control when the grid goes down. I opened, for the first time since the install, the clamp's control box, thinking maybe I'd be able to see something I could easily fix. Right, not going to happen, picture shows the inside! The heating resisitors/dump load are in a separate enclosure above.

I was able to ascertain that the problem lies not in the turbine, it's producing power, (AC, 3 wires) but it's all going to the dump load, not to the grid tied inverter. The inverter is 19 years old, as of now I have two options: 1. Buy a new inverter, meant for a PV system, as the Windy Boy inverter is no longer being produced, but there seems to be nothing specific to wind power about the inverter, it's specs match most common inverters marketed for PV systems. 2: Or, run the needed 6 conductor cabling (the number of wires leading from the control box to the dump load) over to the house from the shop where the control panel now is, mount the dump load in the house as a 2500 watt (max) air heater, a not inconsequential amount of BTU's for a small very well insulated home on a long windy winter night. During the warmer months the unit would be shut down via the control box's shutdown button.


A third option would be to sell the entire system, as my hydro and PV systems produce in excess of my annual power needs anyway, to someone who wants to play around with a 3 bladed 12' diamter, low speed, high quality, wind system. The unit is built along the lines of the old Jacobs turbines, big. heavy, with a lot of swept area, with a 2500 watt max output into the grid, while at the same time having excellent low wind performance. It's quiet also.

 

[OzSolar]

Wow, that is something else. Thanks for sharing.

I watched ARE come and hated to see them go. My outsider's take was that they were a startup company that for a few years had the luxury of time and budget of improving a semi established turbine that wasn't too bad. I think it was the African Wind Power 3.6 but ARE never turned a profit before the outside capital pulled out. Or maybe it got sold 2 or 3 times to to other companies that went bankrupt.

 

[rhino]

Wow, that is something else. Thanks for sharing.

I watched ARE come and go. Hated to see them go. My outsider's take is that they were a startup company that for a few years had the luxury of time and budget of improving a semi established but very robust design (I think it was the African Wind Power 3.6) but never turned a profit and went bankrupt before it could turn a profit. Or maybe it got sold 2 or 3 times to to other companies that went bankrupt.

Not sure about that. I had the AWP 3.6 and it died in only few years.

 

[OzSolar]

Not sure about that. I had the AWP 3.6 and it died in only few years.

There’s some connection is all know. Keep in mind a wind turbine that makes power for more than a few months is in the top 1 percentile so making power for a few years lands them in the .1 percentile. Pretty rarified air actually.

 

[Ptom]

I had an earlier A.R.E. when I was off grid, I sold it and re-installed it at another location, it's still in operation, fully 20 years later, charging batteries.

Back in the days of the big Jacob's wind turbine, longevity like mine has exhibited was common, they had it all figured out! It's only "rarified air" more recently, with crappy designs and poorly thought out installations (weak towers, turbulent air loaction, etc.) that have given them a bad name. In fact my previous experience with my '30's era Wincharger and my own Jacob's installation was the main reason I bystepped other inferior turbines and went with the A.R.E. We all know nothing beats PV for long term reliability, NO moving parts is hard to beat for sure. I am the last person to be pushing wind power oddly enough , as I know better than most the drawbacks to it, at least as compared to PV.

I removed the SMA inverter, it's on the workbench (not that I'm going to work on it, or the turbine's controller, it's all Greek to me) and I will take it down to where my 3200 watt grid tied PV array is located, and do a quick and dirty test. As it's only a 2.5 KW inverter, I'll do it early in the morning, using jumper wires, with the current, in use, Fronius 3.8 Primo inverter disconnected and the SMA taking it's place and see what happens. If it boots up and starts producing power, I'll know the fault lies with the turbine's system and that will be the end of it, I'll have a 2500 watt electric resistance heater and that's all. IF the inverter is proven to be inoperative the plot thickens...., and I will most likely take the chance of seeing if an inverter meant for PV will interface with the the wind system. I'm not worried about "hurting" a new inverter, as I know the voltage clamp/dump load prevents that, and if it doesn't work I'll sell it on EBAY and lose a few hundred bucks, whatever.

 

[OzSolar]

I had an earlier A.R.E. when I was off grid, I sold it and re-installed it at another location, it's still in operation, fully 20 years later, charging batteries.

Do you have any idea how may they made? My based on nothing but a hunch guess is a 1,000 at most. I wonder how many are left in the wild still running today. Maybe few dozen? I think there's one near me but I never see it turning. Those owners will be in the same spot as you when they do fail. Glass is really cheap and sun is so predictable. Anyone who choses to spend any money or time getting it running again is only doing it for love.

We all know nothing beats PV for long term reliability, NO moving parts is hard to beat for sure. I am the last person to be pushing wind power oddly enough , as I know better than most the drawbacks to it, at least as compared to PV.

But wind is so cool!

PV is so reliable it's almost boring but then again that's a good thing when it's comes to your power source.

 

[Sean Very North]

Are you able to carry out a few basic tests ?

The first being from the output of the rectifier/DC input to the windy boy ?

 

[Ptom]

I should mention I have a airstrip, on a mountainside, very short and narrow, and steep. A windsock at the bottom on the property, 1/4 mile away, BUT, over the years I have found the turbine near the hangar and 140' higher due to the sloping ground, gives me a more complete idea of what the wind is doing before setting up to land, or for that matter before I take off. If I see the sock hanging limp, but the turbine spinning, that tells me that the thermals are starting to pop and too be watching for a gust on short final, not good on what is, according to a national flying magazine, the shortest runway in the US on the air charts. I have also often seen, just prior to takeoff, the sock again hanging limp, but a puff starts the turbine spinning, when this happens my 40 years or so of living on this mountainside tells me that the wind will start blowing lower down, it's already blowing higher up, and the windy level lowers as the day goes on. But I digress!

I made progress of sorts: I removed the Windy Boy, took it down to the grid tied solar array and jury rigged the wiring, and the inverter acted the same as with the turbine, no power output. Then, back up at the wind controller in the shop, it occured to me that I had not yet tested the DC voltage output WITHOUT the inverter being hooked up. With a light breeze, past experience showing about 4-600 watts worth of power, I released the brake (a relay opens, it brakes electrically) and then.... I kinda forgot for a second what I was playing with, and got careless. I made brief contact with a wire while fooling with one of the digital voltmeter clips, and a harmless but healthy enough zap to show me that indeed the turbine was putting out DC! With no load/inverter, the voltage, by design quickly ramps up to several hundred volts, then the voltage clamp kicks in and shunts power to the dump load. Everything tells me the system is working as it should, but the nearly 20 year old inverter is at fault. I have a Fronius 3.8 Primo on order, just like I have down at my big array, confident that I won't "hurt" it by using it for the wind system. IF for some reason testing shows it won't work (the big fear being it may present too much of a starting load, inhibiting light wind start up, BEFORE the turbine has a chance to get a few RPM) I'll re-sell it at a bargain price. Sure it's a bit of a gamble but I'm willing to lose a few hundred bucks at most before I throw the turbine away. Already in the couple weeks it's been down, I've found that on a somewhat miserable windy day, (orcloudy, or at night) I don't have that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that it's churning out power. Being grid tied, with a large annual surplus of KWH, I certainly can afford to give it up, then again, I can also afford a bit of gambling on a new inverter. I could also keep the new inverter, and replace the turbine with another PV array of course, if I needed the power, which I don't. The new inverter is back ordered, I'll report back when it arrives and I see what happens.

 

[Sean Very North]

You'll get some power from the PV inverter, but it's performance will be very far from ideal. An inverter designed for WT attachment allows you to program a very specific voltage against current curve to suit your WT, you'll find the speed at which the turbine rotates (when connected to PV inverter) to be very unstable ... but you'll see some power.

You could try the same PV inverter experiment with a used inverter, ideally an ABB, as the 3.6 can be converter via firmware into the WT version.

Power-one solar inverter for wind - Green Power Talk Forum

Power-one solar inverter for wind Wind Power

www.greenpowertalk.org

 

[Ptom]

You'll get some power from the PV inverter, but it's performance will be very far from ideal. An inverter designed for WT attachment allows you to program a very specific voltage against current curve to suit your WT, you'll find the speed at which the turbine rotates (when connected to PV inverter) to be very unstable ... but you'll see some power.

You could try the same PV inverter experiment with a used inverter, ideally an ABB, as the 3.6 can be converter via firmware into the WT version.

Power-one solar inverter for wind - Green Power Talk Forum

Power-one solar inverter for wind Wind Power

www.greenpowertalk.org

Good tip, thank you. A quick search turned up this outfit, very interesting:https://www.solacity.com/power-one-abb-aurora-solar-wind-inverters/

 

[Sean Very North]

Good tip, thank you. A quick search turned up this outfit, very interesting:https://www.solacity.com/power-one-abb-aurora-solar-wind-inverters/

That's the folks who run the forum I linked to previously, there is a lot of very helpful, but now somewhat retro information on that site.

 

[Ptom]

Emailed them this morning, no response as of yet. No hurry, they might be so busy dealing with people needing grid tie inverters for their wind turbines they can't keep up with the demand! More likely, they are out of that business.

Getting back to a non optimized/meant for PV inverter: I could live with that just fine, unless it somehow tears the turbine up, or melts down said inverter. Again, the voltage clamp/dump load the somewhat elaborate controller has would seem to minimize that concern (I'm guessing). Buying a used, somewhat off brand inverter would be less expensive, but also more problematic to unload on the used market than a state of the art/currently used one like the Fronius.

One thing about wind power: PV is great on sunny days as we all know, and can't be beat on a overall bang for the alt energy buck on a annual basis. BUT, no matter how large the system is, it's all over come sun down, and even though I know for a fact PV pencils out better, a lot better, when the winds blows like it is doing right now, with all indications it's going to do so all night long, and I'd usually be producing1.5 to 2.5 KW into the grid, knowing I have a perfectly functional proven wind turbine but without a working inverter, makes me want to take the gamble on a new one.

 

[AKvalleyguy]

I was into wind turbines years ago, but I can offer you no help especially when you start saying "grid tie"

Have you tried the Otherpower folks? If you aren't familiar with them they are into wind pretty heavily. https://www.fieldlines.com

 

[Sean Very North]

Emailed them this morning, no response as of yet. No hurry, they might be so busy dealing with people needing grid tie inverters for their wind turbines they can't keep up with the demand! More likely, they are out of that business.

Solacity are still in business, but my prediction is that they tell you to find a cheap ABB 3.6 on Ebay etc and do the firmware change.

 

[Cklio]

Unfortunately the world of wind, and by extension wind inverters is in a sorry state. Simply put: wind inverters, and the required technical knowledge relevant to operate them sustainably is just not common enough to be profitable for most manufacturers. Many manufacturers that got into wind inverters quickly wanted out, because a small sale of wind inverters would account for a massive portion of their support inquiries. This is just the reality of wind that it's too complicated for the average home owner to know enough. Hence the often communicated silence from manufacturers that have anything to do with wind.

 

[Ptom]

I spent some time on EBAY, I feel there will be less risk financially to just buying a brand new Fronius, (considering it's solid resale value) and if not back ordered, would have done so by now. It did occur to me to release the E brake this morning before I took off, as it's function as a aux wind indicator for my airstrip is not impaired. Here's a pic showing it's location on it's 60' tower, 99% of our wind comes from a "clear' direction, with no obstructions at all, not over the building. I got the tapered tower for free, while doing crane work at a old Sinclair gas station that was being demolished. They had 3 of these holding up the big SINCLAIR sign, and I always thought as I drove by them they'd make a great freestanding wind tower, then the day came when I got the call and I got all three for about $25.00 worth of diesel! Sold two for $250.00 each, kept one, it's handy for giving directions to my rural place "can't miss it, where the wind turbine is."

I've been monitering the output voltage, and I fail to see how it would be any harder on a inverter than passing clouds, it's not like a PV system doesn't do the same during a normal day. I have a very vague memory of the A.R.E. guy (it's designer/head honcho, paid a visit to my place after it was installed) being very proud of the controller and it's voltage clamp function, much of it was over my head as he explained it all to me. Point being, using the term "wind turbine" and "PV inverter" together is somewhat misleading, at least according to my digital volt meter. That's a Ruffian 72 volt electric snowbike BTW, nothing like charging an electric mode of transport of any kind, using your own energy sorces!

 

[Sean Very North]

These guys offer some useful wise words, and equipment, the below link will explain the difference between ....

Wind Inverters and Hydro Inverters | Voltsys

We use ABB solar inverters to export power from wind inverters or hydro inverter systems to the grid. Our systems can also be used in off-grid applications.

www.voltsys.com

 

[Ptom]

Thanks for the tip, I've reached out to them and will report back on their response.

 

[Ptom]

No response from Voltsys, not even a "can't help, you're on your own!" Which is what I figured anyway.

I happened to be working by my PV array yesterday, a broken cloud cover was rapidly moving across the sky, giving conditions that went from heavily ocluuded (with real dark clouds) to a double radiance condition, a clear sun surrounded by lighter colored clouds. The display on my Fronius was swinging from a high of 3840 watts, to less than 1000, several times in a few minutes. The inverter had no issue with this of course, these swings in the input power are no different than what the wind turbine produces, so I am continuing to wait for my supplier (Stellavolta) to alert me they have a 3.8 KW Fronius in stock and ready to ship and I will try it and see what happens.

I COULD go to the bother of taking my current 3.8 down from the PV array, and jury rig it up to the wind system, but if it works as i suspect it would, why bother, it would be a waste of time and labor. If I have it all wrong and I end up immediately destroying it (letting the smoke out....), my PV system is down. I'd rather leave the PV system alone, wait for a new one, hook it up, and put it online first during a low wind period while I moniter the voltage. If it results in a inoperative turbine (due to start up issues perhaps), is totally unsuitable, I'll remove it, put it back in the shipping box, and sell it at a loss, it's a gamble I'm willing to take. I'll report back.

 

[kanelr]

I should mention I have a airstrip, on a mountainside, very short and narrow, and steep. A windsock at the bottom on the property, 1/4 mile away, BUT, over the years I have found the turbine near the hangar and 140' higher due to the sloping ground, gives me a more complete idea of what the wind is doing before setting up to land, or for that matter before I take off. If I see the sock hanging limp, but the turbine spinning, that tells me that the thermals are starting to pop and too be watching for a gust on short final, not good on what is, according to a national flying magazine, the shortest runway in the US on the air charts. I have also often seen, just prior to takeoff, the sock again hanging limp, but a puff starts the turbine spinning, when this happens my 40 years or so of living on this mountainside tells me that the wind will start blowing lower down, it's already blowing higher up, and the windy level lowers as the day goes on. But I digress!

I made progress of sorts: I removed the Windy Boy, took it down to the grid tied solar array and jury rigged the wiring, and the inverter acted the same as with the turbine, no power output. Then, back up at the wind controller in the shop, it occured to me that I had not yet tested the DC voltage output WITHOUT the inverter being hooked up. With a light breeze, past experience showing about 4-600 watts worth of power, I released the brake (a relay opens, it brakes electrically) and then.... I kinda forgot for a second what I was playing with, and got careless. I made brief contact with a wire while fooling with one of the digital voltmeter clips, and a harmless but healthy enough zap to show me that indeed the turbine was putting out DC! With no load/inverter, the voltage, by design quickly ramps up to several hundred volts, then the voltage clamp kicks in and shunts power to the dump load. Everything tells me the system is working as it should, but the nearly 20 year old inverter is at fault. I have a Fronius 3.8 Primo on order, just like I have down at my big array, confident that I won't "hurt" it by using it for the wind system. IF for some reason testing shows it won't work (the big fear being it may present too much of a starting load, inhibiting light wind start up, BEFORE the turbine has a chance to get a few RPM) I'll re-sell it at a bargain price. Sure it's a bit of a gamble but I'm willing to lose a few hundred bucks at most before I throw the turbine away. Already in the couple weeks it's been down, I've found that on a somewhat miserable windy day, (orcloudy, or at night) I don't have that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that it's churning out power. Being grid tied, with a large annual surplus of KWH, I certainly can afford to give it up, then again, I can also afford a bit of gambling on a new inverter. I could also keep the new inverter, and replace the turbine with another PV array of course, if I needed the power, which I don't. The new inverter is back ordered, I'll report back when it arrives and I see what happens.

A fine read. you could write books I think. nice storytelling style.