A.R.E. wind turbine

[Ptom]

Bumping this thread: after waiting some months for a Fronius inverter, I found a 3.6 KW Solis grid tie inverter in stock at a good price. A shout out to NAZ Solar Electric, they are very old timers in the biz, formerly known as Arizona Wind & Sun for about 40 years, now NAZ. I ordered over the phone about 11:00 in the morning last Friday, and they shipped it that day!

So, a quick and easy install, everything was already in place from the Sunny Boy/Windy Boy former install, threw the breakers (with a light wind, past experience told me about 200 to 400 watts into the grid worth) and no smoke escaped! This was untrod territory after all, hooking up an PV grid tie inverter to a wind turbine, but all was good, got the expected output in the very light breeze (the big A.R.E. excels in very light winds), so I left for work. The wind came up by the time I got home, good I thought...., kind of, it turned out.

I SHOULD have been seeing 800 to 1400 watts output in the stronger wind, but was only getting 3-500, and the biggie, the A.R.E. dump load was being activated, as indicated by it's control panel. Later in the day the wind came up more, and I should have been outputting a solid 2000 watts, but it was STILL at 3-500, with the dump load being even warmer, obviously the new inverter is not communicating with the old (but very robust and well engineered) wind controller. Safe enough, not hurting the inverter or the turbine, but not good enough by far! Rather than attempt to re-educate the controller to work with the new inverter (way beyond my skill set), I decided to un-install the inverter and just call it a worthwhile experiment. It was a quick and dirty way to see if I could get the system back on line, but I new there was a chance they would be incompatible, as I vaguely remembering A.R.E. talking about how they'd worked with SMA to configure the Windy Boy to play noce with the turbine, and it did, perfectly for 16 years or so, 2495 watts max output into the grid. During good wind events, I'd see 100+ KWH totals, damn shame the inverter screwed up/wore out.

So, I can pull the turbine and tower down (crane service is my work, so easy/peasy) and:
1. leave the 8 yard tower foundation as it is, and fab a PV mount for it, for a 2 or 3 KW array. Real easy for me, all work done in my nearby shop, panels all installed and wired, then a simple pick and set with the crane, using the existing cabling. But, I have a killer view that direction (all directions really) and looking at the BACK of PV panels is not good, done that before, moved them. Worse, being grid tied, I'd need to go thru all the "official" BS to make it legal with my state e board plus my utility, much more of a hassle now then when I put it up. One example, though I made over 50 steel 3 KW or so racks back when I was in the biz, transported them to 3 different states, and set them with my crane, with no failures ever, the last one I did 5 or 6 years ago failed. Failed the "new" paperwork, because it wasn't engineered and UL approved!

2. Plus, I WANT my wind turbine, as mentioned I have found it more helpful then a a standard windsock for my airstrip ops, which I also have at the bottom of what is officially, according to FLYING Magazine, the shortest runway in the entire USA (google it.) So...., since I have a fully functioning wind turbine putting out gobs of 3 phase power, it occurred to me today that an Outback battery based grid tie inverter like my 24 VDC 900 watt hydro system has used for years, and I AM tech capable enough to install, being familiar with it, along with the requisite Morning Star load diverter for in case the grid goes down to shunt power to the existing dump load, would one way to salvage the situation. More to follow, and pictures.

 

[Ptom]

As I recall, A.R.E. started out as African Wind Power (could be wrong, it's been a while) and I bought one for myself, and one for a customer, about 20+ years ago. When I moved off my off grid property I sold it to a young couple, and also installed it on a home made tower. They had inherited some money, bought 26 acres in the mountains, and started building a huge house. They either ran out of money and ambition, got into drugs, split up, or all three. The house has been sitting there since unfinished and slowly falling apart since. I was in the area on a electric dirt bike ride and rode up the hill to check it out. The doors were all open, as in no door knobs even installed, I did a quick walk thru and it was like they had just broke for lunch, tools and equipment lying there, everything half done, it was eerie, a whole lot of money gone to waste. I had earlier gone to property across the road, told them what I was doing, and was told there had been no activity there for 15 years that they knew of. Then I went into the power room (it was off grid) and saw the sad state off affairs there.

The 8 volt Rolls flooded battery (3, a 24 VDC system) 340 pounds each as I recall, were sitting there dead, no doubt totally ruined. No solar (they had plans for that, never happened) and the power panel I had put together for them was still on the wall as I had installed it. All the equipment now really outdated, but I saw the controller for the AWP turbine on the wall, the reason for my trip there. The AWP was rated for 1800 watts, so whether or not it would play nice with my 2500 watt A.R.E was unknown, but if I could get it for free it may be worth a shot, I am trying to get ahold of the current owner so I can make him an offer. The entire place is for sale, and I have no idea of his idea of the worth of the equipment there, not much. The road up is so washed out, I could not drive my boom truck up there, so the turbine itself and it's tower is going to have to stay there, otherwise I'd buy it. With no batteries I have no idea if the turbine is still functional, most likely, but the weak point of the mill was NO slip rings, and in some installations the wires leading down inside the tower needed to be "unwound" once or twice a year. This was done for simplicities sake, and in my own install never did need to be done. The Trace inverter is worth something I guess, they were super reliable and state of art a couple decades ago, my own was a game changer for my off grid home. Now that I think about it, the one there may BE my old one, as a installer back then I either sold it new to them or it's my old system, can't remember.

IF I could charge a 24 volt battery using my A.R.E. turbine and the AWP controller, I'd set up a system like I use on my hydro: a token/small battery bank, just two 12 volt 100 AH batteries, not meant for any significant storage just as a needed buffer for the inverter, which is a Outback 3500 watt VFXR24. The way it's set up is any further power coming in, once the battery reaches a float voltage of 26 volts, is shunted over to the inverter with a MorningStar load controller/diverter, and from there into the grid. It's all "grid tied approved", my hydro system has been in operation for over 15 years, 897 watts peak, 24/7. A separate dump load rides herd on the hydro's pelton wheel if the goes goes down, keeping a load on it. Misc. solar arrays take advantage of the excess capability the inverter has, about 1500 watts worth, so my hydro and solar input mutually feed the grid, once the hydro is shut down for the winter, it's all solar.

My current (that's a pun I guess) A.R.E. controller obviously takes the 3 wire AC from the tower, and converts it to DC, that's about all I know...., here's a pic of the insides, it's way beyond me. BUT if I could dumb it down a bit, and just charge a battery, the Outback inverter would do the rest. No charge controller, other then the load diverter, is needed. With no load, the DC voltage quickly ramps up to over 500 volts, and my voltmeter doesn't go any higher, then the relays closes for the dump load. I can also manually shut down the mill using a stop button, it's all pretty idiot proof and a really nice design that has worked perfect, except for the failure of the SMA Windy Boy inverter. Rather than attempt (again) to get a grid tie inverter meant for PV to interface with it, if I can get it to simply charge a 24 VDC battery the rest will be easy. I suppose, as an experiment, I could simply take the +- leads of the DC output and hook it up to a couple of car batteries in series, and see what happens. Would the batteries function to keep the voltage down? Of course they would need the Outback inverter (I could borrow my hydro one for the test) and the load diverter to shunt the power into the grid as fast as it's produced. Or, would the batteries promptly blow up, or the wind turbine never even reach operating RPM, perhaps seeing the batteries as a load that prevents it from reaching the RPM needed to unstall the blades. Right now, the start up speed is quite low, as the mill sits there "unloaded", until reaching a useful voltage then the load is applied, pretty sure that's how it works anyway.

 

[Ptom]

On the drive back across the desert from my former customer's deserted house, I remembered ANOTHER past AWP customer, who died 5 years ago, and decided to check out what happened to his equipment, here's a pic of the control room. It also, besides the wind equipment, has a small 1100 watt PV system. I managed to talk the current owner out of letting me borrow the no longer used WindyBoy inverter, and once home jury rigged it up to my A.R.E. controller. But....besides being only a 1800 watt unit, it'd didn't want to work well with the controller, putting too much load on the turbine and not allowing it to reach it's normal rotation speed. I only borrowed the inverter, NOT the controller and dump load (seen in the pic on the left), wanting to test it "quick and dirty." My first thought was to go back and get the controller....., but, I'd still be pumping as much as 2500 watts into a 1800 watt setup, not to mention I have no idea of the incoming voltage of the original AWP turbine, as compared to my ARE's, and am hesitant to experiment too much.

I told it's owner I'd give $250.00 for the inverter, IF it worked with my turbine, it didn't, and I can return it, he's a friend, and it was just gathering dust anyway. I am thinking of offering him $300.00 for the complete turbine setup, the stored alternator/blades, control box, everything, as the brushless alternator (generator??) itself is of some worth to possibly myself and maybe to others. My use would be not as a wind turbine, but for a water wheel design I am contemplating, it's wound to be low speed after all, max RPM I believe was 250. OR, I could buy it all for 300 bucks, and sell it, for 300, I'm not looking to make any money it's just a shame to see it sitting in a barn unused! I am going back today, and will for the first time lay eyes on the stored unit and make a decision and report back.

Here's an old pic on the day we installed it, that's my boom truck I had at the time, on a homemade tower by yours's truly. I came up with the PV install idea also, all "pre-owned" steel from a scrap yard, the PV is still operational, as mentioned earlier, the lack of any slip rings (!) and a generally poor wind site (too many tall trees nearby, creating swirling winds, I had told him that but he wanted it anyway), resulted in the lines needing to be unwound often and it got to be too much hassle for it's owner.

If I did buy and use the alternator for a water wheel, (geared up of course, haven't done the math on that yet,) I still have the issue of being ignorant as to how to get it's several hundred DC volts stepped down to 24 (26 actually, as it would be feeding the same Outback 3500 watt inverter my pelton wheel hydro is currently using, as it has untapped inverting power, about 1200 to 1500 watts worth.

Just stumbled upon this! https://www.dwe-oss.eu/product/500v-to-24v-dc-dc-converter-400w/

 

[beastman]

Here's an original windy boy inverter on facebook marketplace. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1496939347774203/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp:8443aa82-864d-4c68-a6b3-ddfeed272302. It's an sb6000u from 2001.

Two of these on ebay for sb7000us windy boy for $1500/ea. https://www.ebay.com/itm/195936993108

BTW, I would think some solar/wind installer would still have the sma firmware to utilize on the sma gridtie inverters (e.g. sb6000us, sb7000us) in the wind format. I'm sure part of the problem is the amount of time it would take to turn on and sync to the grid during low load conditions and the mppt algo would need to be much more dynamic due to the bursty nature of the wind, or possibly utilizing some high powered zener diodes, etc might smooth out the ripple in the 250-500v range.

 

[kommando]

You can convert any Sunny Boy of the same type as your Windy Boy into a Windy Boy, I have done the reverse and converted a Windy Boy SB2500 into a Sunny Boy SB2500.

You need to put an RS485 piggy back into the inverter, USB 485 adaptor in a laptop and then use Sunny Data Control program to access the parameters, one of the parameters gives you the option of PV or Wind inverter, change to required type and save.

You need to ensure the inverter stays on during this operation so I take 230V ac and with a bulb on one leg to restrict current flow then rectify this to DC and connect to the MPPT.

See page 8 parameter Operating Mode

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SB_SMC_WB_Par-TB-TEN113160.pdf

Operating mode Operating mode of the inverter:
Mpp-Operation: Maximum Power Point
V-Const: Constant voltage mode (the target value is defined in
"Vconst-Setpoint")
Stop: Disconnection from the electricity grid, no function
Turbine: Operating mode for small wind turbine systems (this operating
mode may only be set in wind energy inverters. The use of this mode is
expressly prohibited for inverters of other energy types, such as Sunny Boys
or Sunny Mini Centrals. Otherwise the operation permission and all
warranty claims become void.)

There are other parameters that set the profile of how the inverter operates with the turbine, first connect to your old turbine and note the all the settings and then apply them to the Sunny Boy set to turbine operation.

The Sunny Data Control installer password for changing the parameters is

User inst

Password ID00XX where XX is the sum of the days date, so todays XX is 08+10+23=41 so you enter ID0041

 

[beastman]

You can convert any Sunny Boy of the same type as your Windy Boy into a Windy Boy, I have done the reverse and converted a Windy Boy SB2500 into a Sunny Boy SB2500.

You need to put an RS485 piggy back into the inverter, USB 485 adaptor in a laptop and then use Sunny Data Control program to access the parameters, one of the parameters gives you the option of PV or Wind inverter, change to required type and save.

You need to ensure the inverter stays on during this operation so I take 230V ac and with a bulb on one leg to restrict current flow then rectify this to DC and connect to the MPPT.

See page 8 parameter Operating Mode

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SB_SMC_WB_Par-TB-TEN113160.pdf

Operating mode Operating mode of the inverter:
Mpp-Operation: Maximum Power Point
V-Const: Constant voltage mode (the target value is defined in
"Vconst-Setpoint")
Stop: Disconnection from the electricity grid, no function
Turbine: Operating mode for small wind turbine systems (this operating
mode may only be set in wind energy inverters. The use of this mode is
expressly prohibited for inverters of other energy types, such as Sunny Boys
or Sunny Mini Centrals. Otherwise the operation permission and all
warranty claims become void.)

There are other parameters that set the profile of how the inverter operates with the turbine, first connect to your old turbine and note the all the settings and then apply them to the Sunny Boy set to turbine operation.

The Sunny Data Control installer password for changing the parameters is

User inst

Password ID00XX where XX is the sum of the days date, so todays XX is 08+10+23=41 so you enter ID0041

OMG, you are going to help some people considerably with this post. Do you know if the sunny data control program is still available for download? I looked up trying to find updated inverter software for my sma7000us and sma no longer has it listed on the site. Can this be done w/ a rs232 adapter as well? I'm a bit nervous trying to rectify 230v ac w/ a bulb on one leg then convert to dc at high voltage. I guess I could use my existing solar array when the sun is out to accomplish this instead? Thanks very much. Any other documentation or information you could provide would be great.

 

[kommando]

For Sunny Data Control

I have a working copy but you can still get it from SMA but its hidden in the archive section

Try

https://files.sma.de/downloads/Sunny%20 ... l_3.93.exe

There is a ver 4 but thats just for a bluetooth enabled TL-20 range

Here is the 4.00 link

https://files.sma.de/downloads/Sunny%20 ... ol_4.0.exe

You need a USB RS485 adaptor, plus some 2 core cable, thin as its only going to carry 3V.

I get these but they look to be UK only

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07DJ56YSV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These look to be similar but sometimes they do not work, you just have to try another seller, ebay has lots too.

https://www.amazon.com/DEVMO-CH340-Converter-Adapter-Module/dp/B07TB5WVF4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2U20G1J8LG0UF&keywords=DollaTek+3Pcs+CH340E+USB+to+TTL+USB+to+RS485+Converter+Adapter+Window+7%2F8+XP+Linux+Vista&qid=1696870576&sprefix=dollatek+3pcs+ch340e+usb+to+ttl+usb+to+rs485+converter+adapter+window+7%2F8+xp+linux+vista%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-1

The RS485 can be awkward to get running, the program defaults the serial port to 19600 but the SMAnet only works at 1200. So first time you have to go into the comms settings and make sure changed to 1200 from 19600.

Panels on a sunny day are as good as rectified AC to DC, sun is not reliable enough for me in winter when I do my tinkering. The light bulb in the live wire limits the current, I use a 5W led and the Sunny Boy wakes up with the 300v dc and 0.2A it gets. You are only providing enough power for the leds on the display and the computer.

To get to old downloads click on archive coloured in blue on bottom of 1 Categories

Downloads for SMA Products | SMA America

SMA Downloads: Documents and files for all SMA products ► Inverters ► Software ► Accessories ► System solutions

www.sma-america.com

 

[Hedges]

Older Sunny Boys have a "turbine" mode and a constant voltage mode in addition to PV MPPT, but not later models after SMA said "Good by" to wind turbine. Need to get the right models.

Midnight Classic SCC also has a turbine mode. Midnight also has "Clipper", a resistor dump load for excessive PV voltage/power.

I think one issue with Windy Boy is the 5 minute wait before it reconnects to grid after seeing power come on, e.g. if wind dies then returns. Perhaps that is greatly shortened with offgrid settings. I also imagined that using AC to make isolated DC (at low current, perhaps below minimum voltage for feed-in) could keep it running to monitor AC and reconnect immediately.

I've used Sunny Boy Control and Sunny Web Box to talk to Sunny Boy. Haven't used just USB or RS-232 adapter.
True, I'm only able to change SB settings during feed-in. If my Sunny Island is sitting at 50 Hz, older UL-1741 SB doesn't connect. Switching to grid was my simple solution. You could change SI settings or AC coupled source and loads to otherwise get frequency into range, if you use SI.

If using rectified AC as DC source, I like current limiting e.g. with light bulb to prevent inrush surge. I think it is best to transformer-isolate, because PV DC, whether transformer isolated or non-isolated, doesn't want to be forced to a voltage relative to ground.

Instead, consider a few PV panels in series to make high enough voltage. They'll make enough voltage on a grey day, but I don't know if SB refuses to listen until there are also enough watts for backfeed. I think I had no trouble talking to TriPower when PV was below the 500W minimum it had as default.