A system for my business

[TheKing]

Hello, I am a 24 years old guy living in Macedonia, Europe. I have a B. A. in Tourism and Travel management. I have multiple businesses and I am trying to lower my bills on the Hotel.
The Hotel is huge and it has 2 wedding venues, 2 restaurants, 15 apartments and a swimming pool. I had a lot of offers from Solar Companies but I want to ask y'all professionals here.
I spend around 60 MW or 60,000 kw per year. But the thing is the consumption is dynamic because of the weddings. I have a lot of weddings in the summer (June, July and August) and less in the winter season. Also, the consumption is not during the day, the maximum hits from 7 PM till 3 AM.
I had an offer for a 20 kW system from a company just for the day time use. But I don't like that because it is not a good investment and the ROI will be around 10 years. I want something better, something bigger that will fix my problem and because of the inflation, of the gas prices rising up the ROI will be even better.

Consumption for 2022.
January: 6000 kw
February: 5000 kw
March: 5000 kw
April: 4000 kw
May: 6800 kw
June: 9800 kw
July: 10500 kw
August: 9500 kw
September: 6700 kw
October: 6000 kw
November: 4000 kw
December: 4700 kw

The thing is that during the day from 7 AM to 7 PM I have a consumption in the summer of around 20-30 kWh, but from 7 PM to 7 AM I have around 50-70 kWh. This is because of the weddings and the apartment guests.
From another company I was offered 76 kw system with GEL batteries. (I don't like the GEL batteries, I would actually pay lithium more than them)
I was offered:
190 pieces - 400W HJT AKCOME (36,455 EUR)
6 inverters - DEYE 12KW HYBRID 3 PHASE (28,780 EUR)
6 GEL Batteries EXIDE 295ah 48V (42,595 EUR)

The guy gave me an offer that didn't even come to the Hotel to check it like a professional and thought that I will accept a 100k+ EUR offer like that.
I want your opinions guys, what system would you make if you were in my position?
Thank you.

 

[RV10flyer]

Hello, I am a 24 years old guy living in Macedonia, Europe. I have a B. A. in Tourism and Travel management. I have multiple businesses and I am trying to lower my bills on the Hotel.
The Hotel is huge and it has 2 wedding venues, 2 restaurants, 15 apartments and a swimming pool. I had a lot of offers from Solar Companies but I want to ask y'all professionals here.
I spend around 60 MW or 60,000 kw per year. But the thing is the consumption is dynamic because of the weddings. I have a lot of weddings in the summer (June, July and August) and less in the winter season. Also, the consumption is not during the day, the maximum hits from 7 PM till 3 AM.
I had an offer for a 20 kW system from a company just for the day time use. But I don't like that because it is not a good investment and the ROI will be around 10 years. I want something better, something bigger that will fix my problem and because of the inflation, of the gas prices rising up the ROI will be even better.

Consumption for 2022.
January: 6000 kw
February: 5000 kw
March: 5000 kw
April: 4000 kw
May: 6800 kw
June: 9800 kw
July: 10500 kw
August: 9500 kw
September: 6700 kw
October: 6000 kw
November: 4000 kw
December: 4700 kw

The thing is that during the day from 7 AM to 7 PM I have a consumption in the summer of around 20-30 kWh, but from 7 PM to 7 AM I have around 50-70 kWh. This is because of the weddings and the apartment guests.
From another company I was offered 76 kw system with GEL batteries. (I don't like the GEL batteries, I would actually pay lithium more than them)
I was offered:
190 pieces - 400W HJT AKCOME (36,455 EUR)
6 inverters - DEYE 12KW HYBRID 3 PHASE (28,780 EUR)
6 GEL Batteries EXIDE 295ah 48V (42,595 EUR)

The guy gave me an offer that didn't even come to the Hotel to check it like a professional and thought that I will accept a 100k+ EUR offer like that.
I want your opinions guys, what system would you make if you were in my position?
Thank you.

1770aH is not going to do it. I’d go with at least 9000aH LFP ($100,000USD). Prices for the other materials listed looked good.

 

[TheKing]

1770aH is not going to do it. I’d go with at least 9000aH LFP ($100,000USD). Prices for the other materials listed looked good.

Am I missing something or?
They offered me 6 GEL Batteries or
295ah x 48v = 14.160 kW
14.160 kW x 6 batteries = 84.960 kW or lets round it as 85 kW for the night use?
Or am I wrong?
I didnt understand the part of 9000 aH.
Thanks anyway

 

[OzSolar]

But I don't like that because it is not a good investment and the ROI will be around 10 years. I want something better, something bigger that will fix my problem and because of the inflation, of the gas prices rising up the ROI will be even better.

What do you pay for energy? Do you have net metering?

 

[TheKing]

What do you pay for energy? Do yo have net metering?

I pay for 0.28 EUR per kWh.
Nope, I dont have net metering, I am on the national electricity that everyone uses.

Here is a company called EVN and it is a monopoly, every home uses from them.

ONLY The businesses can make a contract with other electrical companies with lower prices but they don't want to make contracts now because of the prices.
I had one contract last year and it was cheaper but we broke the deal on the third month because of the rising price.

 

[Hedges]

I pay for 0.18 EUR per kWh.
Nope, I dont have net metering, I am on the national electricity that everyone uses.

Most of us are on the electrical grid. In the U.S, there are apparently three: East, West, and Texas. So most share a grid with half the nation.

"Net Metering" is an arrangement intended to share rooftop photovoltaic production with everyone. The way it works is the meter spins backwards if production is greater than consumption, forward if production is less than consumption.

The grid acts like an infinitely large battery. We can store many mega watt hours in the summer, use the power in the winter.

If such a deal is available to you, what you need is a "grid tie photovoltaic system" consisting of PV panels and inverters.

Assuming 5 hours average effective sun per year, 60,000 kWh per year / 365 days per year / 5 hours per day = 33 kW size system
Installing about 33 kW of PV and inverters could reduce net consumption to around zero.
PV panels are around 200 W/m^2 under "standard test conditions", maybe 150 W/m^2 actual power delivered.
33 kW / 0.15 kW per square meter = 220 square meters of PV array needed.

Some net metering plans credit only a portion of retail, so you might have to produce two kWh for each one kWh consumed at another time (or more, or less). So system would have to be sized accordingly.

Batteries are sometimes used to store what you produce until afternoon, then backfeed the meter, if power earns larger credit then. Or, if there is no (or poor) net metering plan, batteries can store power from afternoon to use in the evening. Also, batteries can keep the power on during grid failure.

Batteries are much more expensive and more difficult to make a good system. Just grid-tie PV is more likely to be economical.

In the US, we might spend $1.25/W for equipment (what we consider as do-it-yourselfers). Or, $3/W including labor if someone else installs it.
Over 20 years, this works out to around $0.03/kWh or $0.075/kWh, respectively. So they can save money over long term, but not if your timeframe is only say 5 years. Also, rules and prices get changed on us.

I like solar, but it is fun to tinker with. My advice, unless you have 20 year time window, is focus on your main business, putting customer first by thinking of what makes them happy. Consider backup power that ensures events aren't interrupted by power failure (likely diesel generator). Consider photovoltaic if it doesn't detract from appearance and it pencils out to be a solid investment, better than other financial investments or business expansion.

 

[TheKing]

I saw your post earlier today and I called the same company that gave me the offer with the GEL batteries and I asked them about the net-metering one.
They told me that I consume around 60,000-90,000 kw per year and the ideal system would be 80 kw system that would produce a minimum of 100,000 kWh. The excess would be sold for 0.20 per kWh, meaning I would produce at least 15,000 kWh per year and I would sell them for 90 % of the current market price.

They offered me:
200 x HJT 400W AKCOME SOLAR, model; SK8610HDGDC, CHASER-M6/120P400W
2 x 40KW GROWATT inverter, model; GROWATT MID 40KTL3-X (AFCI)
Plus montage and installation for 56,960 EUR.

In my country you need to have a license if your system is more than 40 kW on your business, 40 kW is for businesses and 6 kW is for households. That license costs 500 EUR plus it has a lot of documents that needs to be filled.
On top of this, there will be also a grant in may/june that I'll try to get that covers 65% of the whole price.
Because there will be a lot of documents I will try to hire a consulting company that will get the things done for around 2,000 EUR.

So, 65 percent of the 56,960 is 22,439 EUR and the system will actually cost me 34,521 EUR, plus 500 EUR the license, plus 2,000 EUR the consulting company or 37,021 EUR total.

37,021 EUR / 0.28 EUR current price of the kWh = 132.217 kWh or around 2 years of the same consumption

On top of the cake, I can actually sell let's say the minimum of 10,000 kWh per year of the greater production for 0.20 EUR per kWh with a contract to one of the electrical companies in our country. (I can choose now since I will have a license)

So, the ROI will be less than 2 years if I'm right?

 

[Hedges]

By my math, you needed around 33 kW system to produce same total in a year as you consume.
If your cost is $0.28 and your credit is $0.20, then you would need 46 kW system if 100% was backfed and your load came 100% from the grid, never using what you produce.

If 40 kW is significantly easier or cheaper you might want to install that size.
Potentially, you can reduce consumption somewhat with more efficient lighting and HVAC.

$56,000 less 65% is around $20,000
60,000 kWh per year / $0.28 per kWh = $16,800 per year.
Payoff in one year and a couple months?

So, 65 percent of the 56,960 is 22,439 EUR and the system will actually cost me 34,521 EUR, plus 500 EUR the license, plus 2,000 EUR the consulting company or 37,021 EUR total.

That sounds more like a 35% rebate, not 65%

"80 kw system ... for 56,960 EUR."

That would only be 0.75 EUR per watt. Sounds cheaper than I expected.

In the US we pay $2 to $4 per watt installed. But in Australia they only pay $1 per watt.

Confirm the price.

 

[SamDeleted]

$56,000 less 65% is around $20,000
60,000 kWh per year / $0.28 per kWh = $16,800 per year.
Payoff in one year and a couple months?

Sounds like a no brainer

 

[TheKing]

Confirm the price.

That is the price that they offered me, I will try to get another offers from another companies and see the difference.

Sounds like a no brainer

Thank you for calling me a no brainer, I know how to add or subtract a percentage but they're calculating the grant like a VAT which my numbers are correct.
So, sorry for not including it in the post, I forgot.

 

[OzSolar]

So, the ROI will be less than 2 years if I'm right?

That would be very hard to believe. It's odd that we've gone from no net metering to getting paid a premium for selling excess back in the course of a few hours.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Sounds like a no brainer

That is the price that they offered me, I will try to get another offers from another companies and see the difference.

Thank you for calling me a no brainer, I know how to add or subtract a percentage but they're calculating the grant like a VAT which my numbers are correct.
So, sorry for not including it in the post, I forgot.

He wasn't insulting you, I suspect a translation issue ... A no brainer = a decision that doesn't require much, if any, brain power / thinking.
Good luck in your ventures.

 

[SamDeleted]

Thank you for calling me a no brainer, I know how to add or subtract a percentage but they're calculating the grant like a VAT which my numbers are correct.
So, sorry for not including it in the post, I forgot.

Sorry didn't mean to offend, like 420 said it's a figure of speech meaning "an easy decision".

It's such an easy decision to you come make it without a brain ! Lol

 

[TheKing]

Sorry didn't mean to offend, like 420 said it's a figure of speech meaning "an easy decision".

It's such an easy decision to you come make it without a brain ! Lol

I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

I got an offer from another company that has a huge portfolio, they are more professional than the offer before and the price is slightly better.

210 x 380W DHM-60L9
1 x FRONIUS TAURO P3 100kw inverter
Plus montage and installation for 44,000 EUR.

Also, I am waiting for another offer from another company, I will post when I'll get the offer to check which offer is the best.

 

[Hedges]

80 kW of panels, 100 kW inverter, parts and labor for 44,000 Euros?

Such a price seems unbelievably low, from my perspective given consumer prices in the U.S.
Maybe that is what larger commercial systems can be done for. I would have though perhaps in the multi-MW range, but not for one this size.

Are you sure there isn't some kind of catch, such as they charge to install it and then you also pay them for power?
Or, do they get other benefits like pollution credits they can sell.

Or, is this the price to you after 65% rebates paid by somebody? in that case it would be believable, about 1.50 Euro per watt before rebate.

The inverter would be 3-phase. Do you have 3-phase power?

Price like this looks quite attractive, around 1 year break-even with your utility rates (if you have net metering).
You said you buy power for 0.28 can sell for 0.20 Euro
Is that sell for cash? Or just credit on your bill only against future usage?

 

[OzSolar]

I like solar, but it is fun to tinker with. My advice, unless you have 20 year time window, is focus on your main business, putting customer first by thinking of what makes them happy. Consider backup power that ensures events aren't interrupted by power failure (likely diesel generator). Consider photovoltaic if it doesn't detract from appearance and it pencils out to be a solid investment, better than other financial investments or business expansion.

Mr. Hedges is spot on here with this advice. It's worth mentioning again. I strongly suspect that you will make more money focusing your time on your business than trying to save money with solar. If I were you I would involve your accountant and have them run some numbers for you.

 

[TheKing]

Are you sure there isn't some kind of catch, such as they charge to install it and then you also pay them for power?

Yes, that price is the full price with the montage and the installation.
The parts costs me 41,400 EUR and the installation and montage 2,600 EUR.

The inverter would be 3-phase. Do you have 3-phase power?

Yes.

Price like this looks quite attractive, around 1 year break-even with your utility rates (if you have net metering).
You said you buy power for 0.28 can sell for 0.20 Euro
Is that sell for cash? Or just credit on your bill only against future usage?

I know for sure that they give credits for the future usages but for selling, the companies said that they're currently buying for 0.20 EUR but probably there's some contracts to be made with the company. Tomorrow the guy that offered me 44k will come to my hotel to check the place and every details and I'll ask him face to face about this.

Mr. Hedges is spot on here with this advice. It's worth mentioning again. I strongly suspect that you will make more money focusing your time on your business than trying to save money with solar. If I were you I would involve your accountant and have them run some numbers for you.

Yes sir, I know but I have multiple businesses and I spend more than 40 thousands of euros on electricity. The hotel is one of the biggest consumer and I'm willing to invest in this if my ROI is <1.5 year. Also, I do have a huge diesel aggregat that runs two of my wedding halls, the kitchen and the restaurant if the grid failures.
Also, right now I'm renovating the garden, the toilets and the summer wedding venue.
This is just the bonus since there's a 65% grant.

Thank you anyways!

 

[Hedges]

It sounds like it would be a good thing to do, financially.
Other piece to consider is battery backup, but those may not make sense especially with generators available.
Ask for customer references, and visit them.

I presume this final cost is only because there is a 65% grant. It is believable with that.

 

[TheKing]

I got one more offer from another company and this is the last offer because those are the 3 companies that I've talked with.

174 x Ja Solar 480W
2 x 40 KW Deye Inverter
Montage and installation for 47,200 EUR.

I'm willing to work with this guys because we're from the same town and I know the owner, we went in the same school.

Is the offer better than the two before or the 44k EUR one is better?

 

[Hedges]

I'm not really familiar with the brands. Fronius I haven't used, but it is known as a tier-one brand.
Some others here have used Deye and GroWatt (mostly smaller models.)
I noticed the first posting mentioned Deye and batteries, which would provide backup day and night (to some extent, depending on capacity.) Don't know if the others were grid-tie only or hybrids.
Different features, so you have to consider what they give you.

The prices are so low compared to size and your power costs, all look cost effective.
Quality and support matter.