Abusing free nights electricity plan with batteries

[MakeMePower]

I should try to sign up and plug a 1W lightbulb in at night.
View attachment 236097

ROI calculator's say I will never break even for 15 years even at 3k+ a month. what does your ROI look like if your actually in PA

 

[42OhmsPA]

ROI calculator's say I will never break even for 15 years even at 3k+ a month. what does your ROI look like if your actually in PA

When I first started it was 8-9 years. I've since upgraded inverters twice, added 2 more battery's and another array with at least one more of each planned.
I haven't recalculated.
I use way more power now than I ever have and hearing my neighbors generators run when the power is out makes it priceless, especially the one who has solar panels all over the roof ...

I'm actually in PA, born and raised.

 

[MakeMePower]

When I first started it was 8-9 years. I've since upgraded inverters twice, added 2 more battery's and another array with at least one more of each planned.
I haven't recalculated.
I use way more power now than I ever have and hearing my neighbors generators run when the power is out makes it priceless, especially the one who has solar panels all over the roof ...

I'm actually in PA, born and raised.

I am in PA, I do loose power a bit (9 UPS's and counting), but the outages aren't long enough for us to care. we had a 2 and half day one a month ago. went through 4 gallons of gas. definitely a cool thing to do, just doesn't make sense money wise. and I am still trying to talk myself into the rv one as well.

 

[42OhmsPA]

I am in PA, I do loose power a bit (9 UPS's and counting), but the outages aren't long enough for us to care. we had a 2 and half day one a month ago. went through 4 gallons of gas. definitely a cool thing to do, just doesn't make sense money wise. and I am still trying to talk myself into the rv one as well.

For me it was more about keeping everything running when I'm away. Keeping the coal stoker burning in the winter and the meat frozen in the freezer. Not having to worry about the generator and cycling gas, starting it in a storm or blizzard, etc.

 

[J.H.]

and hearing my neighbors generators run when the power is out makes it priceless, especially the one who has solar panels all over the roof ...

Aw gee , that gift would knock at least 5 years off your expected ROI …somthings are worth more than money..

 

[GregTR]

Greg, who is your provider?

I'm in Houston and started a free nights plan last week with 'Just Energy'. Looking at my usage I've been wondering how they are going to respond to me not using any of their energy during the day. I was thinking about maybe just using a little so they wouldn't get suspicious, but it sounds like you aren't having any issues at all.

EDIT: Never mind, I just saw your thread linked above. Looks like you are using Just Energy as well. I'm more optimistic now.

You should be very optimistic .

The last time I paid them money was October, 2022 and since then I've been gaining credits, I'm up to $340.





I have 37 months left on this contract .

I don't have solar but similar setup as yours with free nights...check TDU charges...mine is 45-50% of the overall bill..saving some but TDU is a killer

This is the trick/key with Just Energy, they actually credit you the TDU back for the night time usage, they're literally losing money. I haven't found any other provider that does the same. So if I had no TDU credit for night time, I would not sell back to the grid during the day unless my battery was full and I'd deplete my battery before I'd use grid power given that I only get $0.03 for solar credit and the TDU is closer to $0.05. But then I'd be at more of a risk for cloudy days costing me daytime electricity (I'd start the day with an empty battery vs. now when I start with a full battery) and I'd deplete/cycle my battery between 10% and 100% every day vs. now I only cycle between ~60-100% every day before I get to 9PM and I can recharge. So there are some trade-offs/cost associated with limiting night time electricity use which may or may not worth the $0.02/kWh between the TDU charge and the solar credit. I would be closer to 95% self-consumption in that case and would have to still buy some electricity at night but it would be at the $0.05 TDU cost rather than the full price so it'd still be a net win.

 

[Warpspeed]

They're literally losing money. I haven't found any other provider that does the same.

And that is the problem.
Its not going to be long term sustainable for the power utility as more and more customers hop onto the gravy train.
At some point it must all come to a screeching halt one way or another.
You don't need to be an MBA or clairvoyant to figure this out.

I still believe the best solution is to give the power utilities the middle finger and go completely off grid, or be capable of going completely off grid, even though short term, that might not be financially attractive.

Its rather like paying for insurance cover, or investing in a parachute or a lifeboat.......

 

[DIYrich]

Its not going to be long term sustainable for the power utility as more and more customers hop onto the gravy train.

It is the law of supply and demand. It is TX version of NEM3. CA has too much power during the day, and TX currently has too much power at night. As batteries, grid level storage, etc, are added, the market will figure out a new equilibrium. Eventually, it may need to be some form of real-time pricing to get to a long-term equilibrium. Some charge for the fixed cost of being connected to the grid. You also need the base load and peaker plants for when the sun doesn't shine.

In the meantime, enjoy the free ride to pay for the cost of your batteries until the day of reckoning.

Eventually it will be cost effective to add solar to batteries. Then it will be interesting to see the eventual cost of reliability (3 day off grid system) vs cost of staying connected to the grid.

 

[Warpspeed]

Regardless of the concept of evening out day/night power consumption, the utilities still need to run at a profit to pay for maintaining the whole power distribution system, and paying all the employees (and the shareholders).
Any consumer that plans to get a completely free ride contributes nothing to maintaining the system, and becomes just a dead weight liability to the power utility.
Get enough of those, and the whole system then becomes unsustainable.
At some stage, totally free power to some consumers must reach a tipping point.

 

[wattmatters]

they're literally losing money. I haven't found any other provider that does the same.

That may be the case but not necessarily. In some grids, at times of low system demand, consumers are paid to consume.

That's because some generators lose less money overall by not shutting down / ramping down to run at some minimum level. Shutting down and restarting plant might be more costly than simply paying to maintain a minimum guaranteed demand. Large swings in output can result in premature wear and tear on plant, and more downtime for costly repairs. This applies to nuclear and coal thermal general plants more than say gas turbine power plants which are designed for highly variable supply.

So energy might be free to end customers, while the retailer is paid to find demand for the wholesaler/generator.

In the end though it places great strain on the economics of thermal generation plants. Solar has eaten thermal generators lunch, now batteries are coming to eat their dinner.

 

[dfw_dude]

I'd love to "abuse" a system like that. TX here as well, and when I looked into it, for my particular needs it just wouldn't work. my 6000XP + 2x eg4 indoor units power everything but the heavy hitters (HVAC and electric tankless) I'd need at minimum to double up on battery storage which is a no go at this time. Current electric rate is 14 cents per kwh (delivered after all taxes) soooo right on avg for the state, i generate about 750kwh a month under good conditions, so that helps make my billed usage more tolerable.

TXU is a borderline scam company though -- they are huge here in TX so they get away with all kinds of sneaky deceptive sh*t.

 

[Warpspeed]

There is a lot of weird economic stuff going on in the U.S. these days, it boggles the mind of us foreigners....

But the harsh reality of life is, in the long term, there ain't no fee lunch.

 

[wattmatters]

I know I'm late to this party but a couple of comments.

Assuming a power usage of 2000kwh/month, that works out to 67kwh per day. So I'd need to charge a 67kwh battery pack every night.

Are you quoting total consumption, or consumption outside of the free period?

If total, then remove that which can be conducted during the free period.

IOW the first thing to do is shift any discretionary controllable loads to the free period. Heat water at night, Run pumps at night. Do washing at night (most modern appliances have delayed start options). Charge the car at night.

The daytime loads should then only be those which cannot be shifted to the free period.

Then work on way to reduce those. Often the cheapest energy is the energy we don't consume at all. Improve the thermal properties of the home is the big one.

Then think about storage to cover the balance, or at least a proportion of it. It mat be that daytime consumption is quite seasonal, so having enough battery to cover all usage results in low capacity utilisation.

Others have also pointed out the risk of relying on another's generation price. At least with you own solar you are guaranteed a generation price.

 

[Warpspeed]

Have to agree with wattmatters ^^^

Two golden rules.
1/ Minimise overall energy consumption, and with a bit of thought and effort, that can be done without sacrificing lifestyle.
2/ Be as self sufficient as possible, by planning ahead for any disruptions of what you need to live reasonably comfortably by having some alternatives available.

 

[wattmatters]

There is a lot of weird economic stuff going on in the U.S. these days, it boggles the mind of us foreigners....

Plenty of mind boggling here too!

We have free energy periods in Australia as well. Just not for as long a period each day and ours are during the daytime.

There are several retailers offering free energy periods (e.g. Globird, Ovo, Red Energy and Powershop all have plans with free energy periods). I'm on such a plan. Every day 12-2PM our grid power is free. I charge the car, charge the home battery, heat the water if it needs it, we do the washing/drying and run the dishwasher. I'm ending up with energy use looking like this:



The network wants the load, they want people to shift load to the middle of the day when there is an abundance of excess generation capacity. The retailer will be paying negative wholesale rates, so they are making money. The distributors are introducing solar soaker tariffs making daytime network costs cheap(ish).

If it can reduce load at other times, then it can actually help the networks reduce costs overall. It's also hastening the demise of coal.

 

[Warpspeed]

I thought factories, business, and industry were all going flat out 9am to 5pm making stuff.
Rather surprised that the middle of a working day is a quiet period ?
Or maybe the whole economic prosperity engine has taken a dump these days, and everyone is at home watching TV, or at the beach or the pub.

 

[wattmatters]

I thought factories, business, and industry were all going flat out 9am to 5pm making stuff.
Rather surprised that the middle of a working day is a quiet period ?

It's not quiet at all, indeed middle of the day is often the time of peak demand.

The issue however is a massive amount of that daytime demand is being met behind the meter with rooftop solar PV. IOW it's only the grid's network demand which is low.

e.g. take today as an example, across the national market:



Peak demand was at 11:30 AM. But a quarter of that was supplied by behind the meter solar PV. If you remove that then you can see how system demand has a peak in the evening (and a smaller one in the morning):



Now consider that PV output was a bit ordinary today, lots of crummy weather across the south and east of the country, so the demand supplied by rooftop PV was lower than it often is.

In some states, e.g. SA, there are days when rooftop PV alone is supplying >100% of the state's entire demand. They export some to VIC but are now having to curtail rooftop solar at times. At those times they desperately need more load. Pretty much all grid generation has to stop generating with the exception of a minimum generation of peaker plants for system security. This is why grid scale batteries are going in at a rate of knots. Same is happening in Texas and California (actually happening faster there than here but we are catching up fast with some monster units going in).

Our free energy plans will probably disappear when coal power finally dies. Other than for ideological policy reasons, or age, existing nuclear thermal power has less reason to cease generating than coal since the carbon emissions (and hence carbon costs) are low.

 

[wpns]

Eventually, it may need to be some form of real-time pricing to get to a long-term equilibrium.

Too much gain in your positive feedback loop is called an oscillator.

 

[wpns]

At some stage, totally free power to some consumers must reach a tipping point.

Exactly, which is why it's irresponsible for the power companies (marketing PHBs) to be promoting these kinds of plans. Take advantage of them while you can, because they'll be taking advantage of you soon enough. Our PoCo just floated a proposal to make people pay monthly for installed panels, measured by DC specs.

 

[Brucey]

Plenty of mind boggling here too!

We have free energy periods in Australia as well. Just not for as long a period each day and ours are during the daytime.

There are several retailers offering free energy periods (e.g. Globird, Ovo, Red Energy and Powershop all have plans with free energy periods). I'm on such a plan. Every day 12-2PM our grid power is free. I charge the car, charge the home battery, heat the water if it needs it, we do the washing/drying and run the dishwasher. I'm ending up with energy use looking like this:

View attachment 236787

The network wants the load, they want people to shift load to the middle of the day when there is an abundance of excess generation capacity. The retailer will be paying negative wholesale rates, so they are making money. The distributors are introducing solar soaker tariffs making daytime network costs cheap(ish).

If it can reduce load at other times, then it can actually help the networks reduce costs overall. It's also hastening the demise of coal.

Unfortunately time of use is devastating to those who can't afford solar+batteries:

'That tariff should be outlawed': Why Australians are struggling to decipher some 'smart' meter charges

Like millions of Australians, Doreen Fawcett is grappling with a nightmare of unwanted power bill complexity. Calls for simplification are growing.

www.abc.net.au

 

[DIYrich]

Regardless of the concept of evening out day/night power consumption, the utilities still need to run at a profit to pay for maintaining the whole power distribution system, and paying all the employees (and the shareholders).
Any consumer that plans to get a completely free ride contributes nothing to maintaining the system, and becomes just a dead weight liability to the power utility.
Get enough of those, and the whole system then becomes unsustainable.
At some stage, totally free power to some consumers must reach a tipping point.

Eventually it is the poor who will pay. People like us who can afford solar can afford to go off grid when the price of connection is too high. I don't think mandatory connection and connection charge based upon income will work in the long run. Too close to an unconstitutional government mandate.

 

[GregTR]

Lots of interesting discussion here, mostly theoretical, mostly ideological but the fact remains:

In Texas, today, and for the next 37 months, I am getting perfectly free electricity at night, full stop. Am I abusing the system? Yes. Do they care? No. They were the ones reaching out to me to renew my contract and gladly signed me up for another 3 years. I'm an outlier in their system and until everyone on the free night plan uses 99% of their electricity at night, they don't care. They make it back on people who use daytime electricity at a premium.

Our energy distribution and consumption system will go through a paradigm shift in the near future, we're at the forefront of it and, as with many things, poor people will pay the price at the end. Subsidizing electricity, trying to put on surcharge for connection fees, adding a solar tax are all misguided incentives with unintended consequences. I don't have an answer, I'm just saying most of the current regulations and new rules are done with haste and will result in grotesque planning and building by companies and individuals to tailor to that new rule which will likely not benefit society at large. Large scale solar farms and battery banks are likely much better investment as a whole than individual units built out in the aggregate. But we're doing this, because this is what makes sense for us, individuals. This is standard prisoner's dilemma.

I have a system that can sustain me if needed and a backup generator in case of full grid failure. The free night plan is just bringing down my ROI a bit but was not a factor in my design decisions.

 

[Mattb4]

I figure that there is some poor sap someplace that has to pay for all the freebies I get. Would hate to be him. If I could get free electricity (by some incentive load shift scheme) I would not turn it down. Just like I don't turn down the 1-3% money back on my Credit cards or free shipping to my remote rural location. I do marvel about it at times and fail to see how it is a sustainable situation.

Oh well, maybe it is like the Dot com business that lost money on every sale but makes up for it with large volume of transactions. Or for that matter our Government that can spend more than taxes brings in. I guess the math works out eventually.

 

[Hedges]

power everything but the heavy hitters (HVAC and electric tankless) I'd need at minimum to double up on battery storage which is a no go at this time.

Easy:

 

[Hedges]

It's not quiet at all, indeed middle of the day is often the time of peak demand.

The issue however is a massive amount of that daytime demand is being met behind the meter with rooftop solar PV. IOW it's only the grid's network demand which is low.

e.g. take today as an example, across the national market:

View attachment 236792

Peak demand was at 11:30 AM. But a quarter of that was supplied by behind the meter solar PV.

And that is the true "Duck's Back" curve. There isn't one.
It is the "Elephant's Back", and PV is doing its job to meet much of the demand.

If you remove that then you can see how system demand has a peak in the evening (and a smaller one in the morning):

View attachment 236793

This is more like the fraudulent "Duck's Back" curve we are shown in the US.
The objective is to show that PV is less than worthless, it is a burden on society.

At least your curve has the X axis at zero. Ours has it close to 10,000 on your scale, to make it appear PV almost exceeds all demand.

Also, our "Duck's Back" curves only go back to 2010. They don't go back to 2000, because then it would show the "Elephant's Back".

The social policy we have here is to demonize people with rooftop PV, as Rich people who are getting a free ride on the grid which is paid for by poor people. On account of that, rate plans are being changed to maximize utility company revenue and make it so no one can escape the utility bill even by reducing energy consumption.