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Adding a Hybrid Inverter to My on Grid Inverters- AC Coupling?

Leif D

New Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2024
Messages
5
Location
Tyler, TX 75701
Greetings-
I am sure this has already been questioned but here goes.

I currently have 2 grid tied SMA SB7.0 inverters with (45 panels) I am currently generating @10 kWh max.
I also have a NG whole home generator.

I would like to add on an EG4 18KVp Hybrid inverter with EG4-Wall Mount Indoor Battery, 48V 280Ah, 14.3kWh , Indoor.

Am I able to AC couple my SMA's to the EG4 and still be able to add more panels to the hybrid if I don't start with panels on it? Do I have to keep all inverters equal with PV connections?

I want to stay grid tied so that I can charge my battery(s) if needed.

Thanks for any feedback available

Leif -newbie
 
Yes. You can AC couple the output for the SMA inverter through the grid port. You can also add panels the the MPPTs. The grid would be set up to go into the grid port of the 18Kpv and the main breaker panel would be connected to the output of the 18Kpv.
 
Does 18kpv do something for you that 2x SMA SI 6048US would not?
(maybe the ability to add PV panels to it later?)

2x SI can pass through 13.4kW max to grid (56A at 240V) but I think you say your 2x SB 7.0 are putting out more like 10kW than 14kW. (You said "kWh", assume you mean kW)

(Just chiming in for my favorite inverter and brand.)
 
Does 18kpv do something for you that 2x SMA SI 6048US would not?
(maybe the ability to add PV panels to it later?)

2x SI can pass through 13.4kW max to grid (56A at 240V) but I think you say your 2x SB 7.0 are putting out more like 10kW than 14kW. (You said "kWh", assume you mean kW)

(Just chiming in for my favorite inverter and brand.)
Thank you for the reply.
Is the SI 6048US a hybrid inverter? I would still need grid tied. I won't be energy independent.
My nominal PV power should be 14.6 kWp. I am generating about 10.5 kW highs right now with an occasional peak @11.2kW but that's rare. I averaged about 59 kWh power a day in Aug.
The thought behind the 18kpv is to take grid electricity as well as solar to a battery. Filling a battery with the grid power at night (free). I would have the ability to use the battery when I am not generating enough for whole home use. Ie. 7a-9a and 5p-9p. during the summer...

I also sell back almost the same that I consume of grid electricity but am making nothing to speak of on electric return to grid. That is leaving winter out of the equation for the moment.
 
SI 6048US is a battery inverter that is grid-interactive, can blend battery power with grid. Not hybrid, no PV inputs. Instead it AC coupled to grid-tie PV inverters and DC couples to PV charge controllers.

This is SMA Sunny Island 6048US. Data sheet, manual, system examples under the <downloads> tab.


SMA is a very high quality and expensive brand. They invented grid-tie photovoltaics, transformerless grid-tie inverters, and AC coupling of battery to grid-tie PV inverters using frequency shift to throttle production.

SMA has lost considerable market share to other less expensive brands, which also move faster to introduce new features. They have three battery inverter series in the US, each with various capabilities. Sunny Island, Sunny Boy Storage, Sunny Boy Smart Energy (a hybrid.)

Sunny Island msrp is now $5700, and retail street price $3700 to $4700. But there are many new in the box old-stock or low hours take-offs due to DC Solar bankruptcy available on eBay, Craigslist, others. You might pay $1000 to $2000 per inverter. They are 120V single phase so you need two for 120/240V split phase, or for for twice the power.

What SI does not do is peak shaving, charging battery to prevent export to grid and discharge to prevent import from grid. That's something many of us in California now need due to net metering being ended. Other models from SMA and other brands offer this.

What SI does best is forming an island grid for off-grid systems with AC coupled GT PV like Sunny Boy, also DC coupled MPPT SCC. And grid-backup, where it sits there with charged battery letting Sunny Boy supply loads and backfeed grid, then letting grid supply loads at night. If grid fails, SI disconnects and runs offgrid.

I've read that many other battery inverters, especially HF, have difficulty regulating GT PV and use a relay to suddenly disconnect them. SI is LF and has no such problem.

For Batteries, there are some 48V batteries on SMA's approved list, others people have used successfully with closed-loop BMS communications. I've read of EG4 Power Pro working, also DIY batteries with some JK BMS. Other people run open-loop with lithium, tell SI it is VRLA.

Filling battery with free grid power at night may or may not work if you operate SI set for "grid as generator" and some internal time settings, or external timer controlling a relay to disconnect from grid.

Likely other brands are better suited to time of use programming like free nights. Possibly Sunny Boy Smart Energy but I don't know enough to consider recommending it. Certainly other brands offer higher surge rating for motors like A/C.

I want (and have) Sunny Island + Sunny Boy for split-phase and 3-phase grid-backup and offgrid systems, but am now trying to get zero export going due to changed utility plan. Since you have Sunny Boy I was trying to steer you to Sunny Island.

Likely EG4 18kpv which you're considering will do what you want, also SolArk and Midnight The One.

Midnight is a highly respected company - their engineers are pioneers of the off-grid PV industry. Unlike their other US made products, The One is made in China for Midnight, not sure how much of its design is from Midnight themselves. New product, even newer battery from Midnight. Definitely worth looking into, but we haven't heard much yet from users.

Since you are on-grid, you can consider putting critical loads downstream of your new battery/hybrid inverter. Or you can use CT current transformers at the utility grid connection and have battery inverter backfeed loads in the house, only when grid is up. There is a thread asking which inverters can use CT and charge from power that would otherwise be exported from GT PV connected upstream; that may or may not be any benefit for you. Usually we want PV downstream of battery inverter so we can operate indefinitely when grid is down.
 
Yes. You can AC couple the output for the SMA inverter through the grid port. You can also add panels the the MPPTs. The grid would be set up to go into the grid port of the 18Kpv and the main breaker panel would be connected to the output of the 18Kpv.
So both the grid and the SMA outputs would be tied into the grid port of the 18Kpv?
SI 6048US is a battery inverter that is grid-interactive, can blend battery power with grid. Not hybrid, no PV inputs. Instead it AC coupled to grid-tie PV inverters and DC couples to PV charge controllers.

This is SMA Sunny Island 6048US. Data sheet, manual, system examples under the <downloads> tab.


SMA is a very high quality and expensive brand. They invented grid-tie photovoltaics, transformerless grid-tie inverters, and AC coupling of battery to grid-tie PV inverters using frequency shift to throttle production.

SMA has lost considerable market share to other less expensive brands, which also move faster to introduce new features. They have three battery inverter series in the US, each with various capabilities. Sunny Island, Sunny Boy Storage, Sunny Boy Smart Energy (a hybrid.)

Sunny Island msrp is now $5700, and retail street price $3700 to $4700. But there are many new in the box old-stock or low hours take-offs due to DC Solar bankruptcy available on eBay, Craigslist, others. You might pay $1000 to $2000 per inverter. They are 120V single phase so you need two for 120/240V split phase, or for for twice the power.

What SI does not do is peak shaving, charging battery to prevent export to grid and discharge to prevent import from grid. That's something many of us in California now need due to net metering being ended. Other models from SMA and other brands offer this.

What SI does best is forming an island grid for off-grid systems with AC coupled GT PV like Sunny Boy, also DC coupled MPPT SCC. And grid-backup, where it sits there with charged battery letting Sunny Boy supply loads and backfeed grid, then letting grid supply loads at night. If grid fails, SI disconnects and runs offgrid.

I've read that many other battery inverters, especially HF, have difficulty regulating GT PV and use a relay to suddenly disconnect them. SI is LF and has no such problem.

For Batteries, there are some 48V batteries on SMA's approved list, others people have used successfully with closed-loop BMS communications. I've read of EG4 Power Pro working, also DIY batteries with some JK BMS. Other people run open-loop with lithium, tell SI it is VRLA.

Filling battery with free grid power at night may or may not work if you operate SI set for "grid as generator" and some internal time settings, or external timer controlling a relay to disconnect from grid.

Likely other brands are better suited to time of use programming like free nights. Possibly Sunny Boy Smart Energy but I don't know enough to consider recommending it. Certainly other brands offer higher surge rating for motors like A/C.

I want (and have) Sunny Island + Sunny Boy for split-phase and 3-phase grid-backup and offgrid systems, but am now trying to get zero export going due to changed utility plan. Since you have Sunny Boy I was trying to steer you to Sunny Island.

Likely EG4 18kpv which you're considering will do what you want, also SolArk and Midnight The One.

Midnight is a highly respected company - their engineers are pioneers of the off-grid PV industry. Unlike their other US made products, The One is made in China for Midnight, not sure how much of its design is from Midnight themselves. New product, even newer battery from Midnight. Definitely worth looking into, but we haven't heard much yet from users.

Since you are on-grid, you can consider putting critical loads downstream of your new battery/hybrid inverter. Or you can use CT current transformers at the utility grid connection and have battery inverter backfeed loads in the house, only when grid is up. There is a thread asking which inverters can use CT and charge from power that would otherwise be exported from GT PV connected upstream; that may or may not be any benefit for you. Usually we want PV downstream of battery inverter so we can operate indefinitely when grid is down.
Thank you for all the information. I have liked the SMA's so far and am not opposed to them. I am just a hop, skip and a jump away from Signature Solar. It seems they have a pretty good reputation as well. Thank you for giving me more education.
 
No. The sma will connect to the Gen port.
So would that keep me from connecting my Generac to the Gen port?
It almost sound like I might be better off decommissioning the SMA's and putting my arrays on the EG4.
I would rather keep the extra SMA's active and possibility of expanding since I have already tied money up in the inverters.
 
Correct. If you tell the hybrid inverter "Gen" port is for AC coupled GT PV, not for generator, then you could only connect generator to a transfer switch on grid input.

I understand the issue is HF inverters can't deal with AC coupling as smoothly as LF inverters.
Some (such as SolArk) recommend DC coupled PV be equal or more watts than AC coupled PV (so they can control that directly.)
EG4 likely similar, and maybe could handle GT PV direction on its output with enough DC coupled PV. Not sure, Filter Guy should be able to clarify.

Yes, moving PV array directly to EG4 is likely to give best integration.

Maybe keep SMA SB mounted and wired direct to grid. Gives you the option to swap panels back if EG4 is down for service at some point. Redundancy and spares is always good. And maybe both could be used in the future (especially if DC + AC on EG4 works well.

While I like AC coupled SMA, these hybrids have an advantage that some can be over-paneled to as much as 200% of inverter rating, and what PV can't be sent to grid by inverter is stored in battery. Then later in the day, exported to grid; maintain 100% output for longer.
 
So would that keep me from connecting my Generac to the Gen port?
It almost sound like I might be better off decommissioning the SMA's and putting my arrays on the EG4.
I would rather keep the extra SMA's active and possibility of expanding since I have already tied money up in the inverters.
Correct... if the SMAs are on the 'Gen' port a generator can not be.
 
I want to stay grid tied so that I can charge my battery(s) if needed.
The GT solar only needs to be connected to the Gen Port if you want the GT solar to work in a grid down situation. That would leave your Gen port open for your generator. Another option would be a transfer switch so that either the generator or the GT solar would be sent through the Gen port. Normally when the grid is up, the GT solar would serve the loads including charging batteries and send excess to the grid. When using the generator you would have to manually disconnect the grid because the presumably dirty power from the generator would not do well with grid power. That is why the more expesive option of an automatic transfer switch is another choice depending on your desires for simplicity or complexity.
 
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And another option, "ChargeVerter", an AC powered battery charger that accepts wide voltage and frequency range.
Compared to grid feeding hybrid directly, this avoids glitches. And surges. It makes an on-line UPS.
 

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