Advice on off grid setup for 1000sf house

[timknock28]

I’m looking for advice for an off grid system to run a small house I’m currently building. My budget is around $8k. I was considering the 6000xp (or two) with the EG4 indoor battery and around 5kw of panels to start.
I’ve got a well pump that requires 10amps at 230v to start, heating will be wood stove, I’ll have propane for water heater/dryer/range and a small mini split for AC a few weeks in the summer.
It’ll be located in north Idaho, so very little sun in winter, so I’ll supplement with generator until I can get more panels.
Is there a reason to keep the inverter/batteries in a separate shed vs a utility room in the house?
My main concern right now is a reliable system I can expand in the future as funds become available.
Thanks for any suggestions.

PS the alternative is hooking to the grid for around $10k if that is recommended. I’d just rather put that money to being self reliant.

 

[Mattb4]

Reliable will be to a large extent of your ability to put together the components properly and understand that loads drive your supply needs. It is not all that difficult to expand if you include that in your design plans. As you mentioned the EG4 6000XP can be paralleled or stacked for higher output. By doing that you gain another 2 SCC for PV Arrays. Multiple arrays and batteries connected through appropriate bus bars to make adding more easier allows a lot of expansion potential.

Doing it all for $8K seems possible though it is sometimes easy to minimize the cost of all the connectors, wires, battery cables, mounting hardware, test equipment, breakers, fuses, electrical distribution equipment. Little items can add a great deal to the costs.

 

[timknock28]

Reliable will be to a large extent of your ability to put together the components properly and understand that loads drive your supply needs. It is not all that difficult to expand if you include that in your design plans. As you mentioned the EG4 6000XP can be paralleled or stacked for higher output. By doing that you gain another 2 SCC for PV Arrays. Multiple arrays and batteries connected through appropriate bus bars to make adding more easier allows a lot of expansion potential.

Doing it all for $8K seems possible though it is sometimes easy to minimize the cost of all the connectors, wires, battery cables, mounting hardware, test equipment, breakers, fuses, electrical distribution equipment. Little items can add a great deal to the costs.

Thanks. I’ve done complete wiring of several grid tie houses, so I’m familiar with that aspect and the requirements of appliances, but solar is something new. My main concern is the reliability of the EG4 components.

 

[Q-Dog]

My main concern is the reliability of the EG4 components.

Their record hasn't been great so far. Maybe their latest products will be reliable ... or the stuff they comeout with next year ... or the next year.

 

[Mattb4]

.. My main concern is the reliability of the EG4 components.

Hard to say how the EG4 rebranded Luxpower AIO will hold up over time. It has only been out now for a year. For historically reliable equipment you would need to look at Schneider or Victron.

 

[registered-bum]

The EG4 products have certainly had their share of problems. The company has mostly worked through those but it remains to be seen whether they will prove to deliver a 10-20 year product reliability, or even be in business that long. There are no sure bets, even for Schneider and Victron, and while their products are more expensive and have a few warts of their own - both companies and their product lines have a well earned reputation for quality. If I had to bet on a 20 year lifespan - I'd have chosen Victron personally.

My build is similar to your target; off-grid, ~1100 sq ft, well, and propane fridge/stove/waterheater. We have a pair of EG4 6000xp AIO units, and these start the well pump (slightly smaller spec than yours quoted) and the rest of the household gear without complaint. We moved to a 2-in-1 LG unit for a washer-dryer (120vac), mostly to get it off the propane and also to avoid the hassle of running another 220v drop. We've kept the propane stove and fridge, just cause we were not convinced that the EG4 would reliable enough. At this point, we think its good enough and are looking to replace both fridge and stove with electric. Solar plant for us is then ~10kw PV panels, (2) 6000XP inverters, (6) EG4 LL batteries, and with wiring, frames/mounts, switch gear and etc, we've spent roughly $25k Which was okay for us, we certainly could not have the PoCo bring lekki to our property for those prices (estimate was $67k for the 1.5 mile run in hilly and forested terrain).

I've had good success with the Victron gear, works out of the box and is generally simple to setup, integrates well with other Victron pieces, and has proven stupid reliable.

Our overarching goal may be similar to yours - don't want to rely on the PoCo and don't want to be held hostage to whatever their frikking metered/time-of-day crazy assed rates are. Independence is good.

 

[DIYrich]

PS the alternative is hooking to the grid for around $10k if that is recommended. I’d just rather put that money to being self reliant.

Assuming you can take advantage of the credit, if you spend $14,000 for solar / battery, you get a 4,000 credit. So your net cost is $10,000 and have no power bill.

 

[timknock28]

The EG4 products have certainly had their share of problems. The company has mostly worked through those but it remains to be seen whether they will prove to deliver a 10-20 year product reliability, or even be in business that long. There are no sure bets, even for Schneider and Victron, and while their products are more expensive and have a few warts of their own - both companies and their product lines have a well earned reputation for quality. If I had to bet on a 20 year lifespan - I'd have chosen Victron personally.

My build is similar to your target; off-grid, ~1100 sq ft, well, and propane fridge/stove/waterheater. We have a pair of EG4 6000xp AIO units, and these start the well pump (slightly smaller spec than yours quoted) and the rest of the household gear without complaint. We moved to a 2-in-1 LG unit for a washer-dryer (120vac), mostly to get it off the propane and also to avoid the hassle of running another 220v drop. We've kept the propane stove and fridge, just cause we were not convinced that the EG4 would reliable enough. At this point, we think its good enough and are looking to replace both fridge and stove with electric. Solar plant for us is then ~10kw PV panels, (2) 6000XP inverters, (6) EG4 LL batteries, and with wiring, frames/mounts, switch gear and etc, we've spent roughly $25k Which was okay for us, we certainly could not have the PoCo bring lekki to our property for those prices (estimate was $67k for the 1.5 mile run in hilly and forested terrain).

I've had good success with the Victron gear, works out of the box and is generally simple to setup, integrates well with other Victron pieces, and has proven stupid reliable.

Our overarching goal may be similar to yours - don't want to rely on the PoCo and don't want to be held hostage to whatever their frikking metered/time-of-day crazy assed rates are. Independence is good.

So what is your current solar set up exactly other than the pair of 6000xp’s? Do you have the 6 batteries and 10kw of panels or will that be the finished product? Is there a reason for going with the EG4 LL batteries vs the EG4 indoor (or two).

So at this point you feel comfortable enough with the EG4 products to rely on them, but Victron gives you greater confidence in reliability is what I gather.

Yeah, in Texas it was around $1200 to bring power 400 feet, in Idaho they want $8k to bring it 20 feet (with me doing all the work and providing materials).

Thank you for the information.

 

[registered-bum]

Yep, I do have most of these in place and working. Only about half the panels are installed - roof mount 550w units, the rest in storage. I had originally chosen the EG4 6500 inverters, and 6x LL batteries, got them on a decent sale price, free shipping etc. But those 6500s proved to be extra shitty (luckily as a trained sailor I had the language to express my displeasure). So SigSolar offered upgrades to the 6000XP -for another chunk of change. The 6000XPs have been decent enough - but be advised, their manuals and instructions are abysmal (yeah - I'm a very biased engineering type who makes his living is clear and concise communications). There is however a lot of good info and how-tos here on the forum, so it's less of an issue now.

We are pretty frugal with electricity, and daily consumption averages 7-10kwh - peaking at 14-17kwh in July and August - fortunately with lower humidity we can generally rely on evaporative cooling. Having steady electricity is pretty nice, and a necessity for me as I'm still a remote IT jock hiding behind a couple screens. We do have 3 generators from the before time (before our solar), including a 12k diesel, and couple smaller HF Predators (I'm anal about scheduled maintenance, always using fuel stabilizer, and monthly exercise runs). So we have definitely have a plan A, and plan B, and C and ...

I have purchased the ground mounts and rails and etc. - but timing hasn't aligned yet - still need to shore up the shop foundation and if I deploy those BrightMount kits, those concrete footers would be a PITA to work around. The optimum location for the next batch of panels is on the south side of the shop (downward sloping hill, but with a 15-20 ft wide horizontal cut aligned east-west - almost perfect for panels, especially bifacials). I may fab a wooden frame and put that in the perfect slot - with the plan that late next summer I can replace the wood with the BrightMounts, and make chicken coops out of the old lumber -LOL.

 

[registered-bum]

So for example, picking on Coeur d'Alene - google maps say that latitude has DD coordinates of Lat, Lng: 47.73, -116.78
(We're actually down here by Redding CA - and at ~41N that puts us a bit further south, so we get a little more winter sun.)


Q: But how do I estimate the number of hours of winter sun and solar capture?
A: Use the feds provided tool PVWATTs - easy peazy.

Fun times playing what if for size of the array (say 10kw) and for east-west alignment (say 180) and tilt of panels (say 35 degrees).
What happens if I put them at 45 degrees tilt? easy ...

You will see the trade-offs for winter vs summer power capture - but it really helps you get your mind around these variables - without having to go out and build arrays and such.


Se below

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

900 sqft house and 1600 sqft shop
currently setup
5600 watts of panels installed (1800 on standby)
1300 aH (70kWh) of DIY cells
2 x 4400 watt inverters

this powers my house and my shop for all power needs year round for up to a week of low/no solar output. depending upon how long you want to power your house under poor conditions you could have a smaller battery and save some cash until you have more to put towards it. notice I did not put brands in there as i do not want to influence you towards anything in particular, just that this is what I needed to accomplish roughly the same thing as you are talking about.

there is no effective difference between my cabin and a normal house as all amenities are present, the big difference being currently I heat with either wood, or two kerosene forced air heaters. I am preparing to swap this to solar/waste oil boiler to be finished in 2025.

I also power the shop off of the system and that includes all normal power tools that you would have and some that would probably be unique to my profession. only my compressor, welder and automotive lift are 3 phase and run off of a generator. this double as a backup in case my PV system goes down somehow, or if for some reason I am not getting enough solar to charge the batteries, I could charge via two chargeverters.

one thing i noticed you say and it is what is going to give you the most issues.... you said reliable and then you mentioned 8k... something needs to change somewhere, either you build it out slowly with upper end components and expand as cash becomes available or you kiss the reliable portion good by... it is really that simple my inverters (Just inverters) are 2400 each.

Victron, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider (and all of its subsidiaries). are all names that have been in the business for years and have proven track records for the inverters. EDIT: Fronius, Outback and Samlex are also considered very good as well.

Morningstar, Victron, Midnite Bogart are all good SCC's that have been in the business for decades and have proven track records for their equipment.

you could design a system aimed at what your final needs are and then build it out a little at a time as you can afford it. thats what I did and I now have a fairly bullet proof system with multiple redundancies and backups.

YMMV

 

[Madcodger]

I'd say we're a good example of a similar situation. We're in Maine, and built a totally off grid 36x44 "barn" with garage, mechanical room, and entry foyer with bathroom on first floor, and a ~910 SF apartment on the second floor (gambrel roof eats up some side space we use for conditioned space storage). We have three heat pumps, but only one of them ends up being needed most of the time due to much air sealing and insulation. I could throw a rock and hit the utility pole near our property - we just wanted to be self reliant, as well.

Water heating is with a heat pump heater (50 gallon) and we have a full size washer and heat pump dryer, induction stove, and dishwasher. The only non-electric thing in the building is a propane tankless water heater that doesn't supply domestic hot water but powers the "backup" hydronic heat for the first floor, when it's just too cold to efficiently use the garage heat pump (we'll install an air-water heat pump on that one day, when prices become more reasonable here, as they are in Europe now). To power the building we have three 6000XPs (need only two), and five indoor PowerPro batteries (started with three, but winters in Maine are long and dark). Solar is 6.4 KW ground mount solar at fixed 45 degrees (which are fine April-Oct) but we're adding 6.8 KW on the roof and side of the barn, which should be more than enough for all but 3-5 times each winter, when the generator will supplement.

If you heat the place with propane and use it for hot water and cooking, I think the setup you describe should be fine, if you have a generator available for a few times each year when you hit a few days of bad weather. The well pump is the big unknown as we don't know the surge demand of that motor. We use a Grundfos SQ which has very low surge. At the worst case, you could likely swap out your existing pump for one of those, at a cost that's lower than building more surge capacity with a different, more expensive inverter. And finally, I see no reason for the batteries and inverters to be in a separate building, IF you isolate them in terms of noise. They are loud, so make sure you have great insulation between living space and mechanical room. Ours is right under our bedroom and we don't hear a thing, but that's because there's two feet of cellulose between the floors. If I'm in the garage and have the mechanical room door open, it sounds like someone's running a blow dryer (about that loud).

 

[patrickparrott]

I'm designing a system for the same application as yours. 1951 ranch with lots of glass and wood heat with NG backup. Start with high reliability, because a home without power is an unhappy home. I suggest Midnite, not their AIO, and a small backup generator. I use an 8kw Generac. That allows you to grow with your needs. Keep the array on the ground. Ours will be 5kw with Brightmount racks. A small shed will house the equipment for safety and be used for deer hunting. In the summer we use an average of 9kwh/day, peak 12kwh/day. In the winter we use 2.5kwh/day but aren't there. It's in Michigan Near Flint. We have two arrays with Victron equipment on separate outbuildings. Very reliable but harder to meet code.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I'm designing a system for the same application as yours. 1951 ranch with lots of glass and wood heat with NG backup. Start with high reliability, because a home without power is an unhappy home. I suggest Midnite, not their AIO, and a small backup generator. I use an 8kw Generac. That allows you to grow with your needs. Keep the array on the ground. Ours will be 5kw with Brightmount racks. A small shed will house the equipment for safety and be used for deer hunting. In the summer we use an average of 9kwh/day, peak 12kwh/day. In the winter we use 2.5kwh/day but aren't there. It's in Michigan Near Flint. We have two arrays with Victron equipment on separate outbuildings. Very reliable but harder to meet code.

there is a recurring theme i keep finding on this forum... people with Midnite, Magnum, Outback, Trace, Xantrex, Schneider and a few other legacy inverters never have any issues to speak off, yet the Chinese inverters are always something. most of the times its minor things like I can't get the bells and whistles to work properly but sometimes it is much larger...

and with the costs of the Chinese made, US branded units like solark and eg4 AIO's they are not such a great deal as peple like to blather on about.

I see people saying things like I need 2 x 18KPV inverters to power XXXX XXXX XXXX and XXXX and I think to myself I am doing more than that with two magnums and they rarely turn their fans on...

its my opinion that the only thing from china worth outright purchasing is the battery cells, and thats only if you can wade through all of the scam artists selling fake grade A's or as they have rebranded them ESS grade cells, and even then I am reading in threads about .3 volts difference after not being able to fully recharge for a mere 3 weeks....

 

[patrickparrott]

there is a recurring theme i keep finding on this forum... people with Midnite, Magnum, Outback, Trace, Xantrex, Schneider and a few other legacy inverters never have any issues to speak off, yet the Chinese inverters are always something. most of the times its minor things like I can't get the bells and whistles to work properly but sometimes it is much larger...

and with the costs of the Chinese made, US branded units like solark and eg4 AIO's they are not such a great deal as peple like to blather on about.

I see people saying things like I need 2 x 18KPV inverters to power XXXX XXXX XXXX and XXXX and I think to myself I am doing more than that with two magnums and they rarely turn their fans on...

its my opinion that the only thing from china worth outright purchasing is the battery cells, and thats only if you can wade through all of the scam artists selling fake grade A's or as they have rebranded them ESS grade cells, and even then I am reading in threads about .3 volts difference after not being able to fully recharge for a mere 3 weeks....

You are right on target. I have an electronics lab in NY. Reliability and efficiency has a lot to do with the electronic circuits and the components used. Victron and Midnite only design this way. You get what you pay for. The best transistors are worth it.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

You are right on target. I have an electronics lab in NY. Reliability and efficiency has a lot to do with the electronic circuits and the components used. Victron and Midnite only design this way. You get what you pay for. The best transistors are worth it.

yeah my magnums are pre mexico move so more than anything now I am looking for repair boards for future use and need that are pre-mexico.

 

[dopeassjackson]

Hook to the grid. Way more content in the mean time and when/if you ever go to sell the place offgrid lowes the pool of buyers.

Not many mortage companies will do off grid lending.

 

[sumpower]

I have had a couple clients that sold thier off grid homes and the buyers got easy low interest financing. I guess it is one of those, "your mileage may vary" ocurrences.

I would recommend quality equipment over chinesium every time. Off grid only must be dependable. Look for systems with low wattage while in search mode. This excludes all in one inverters as far as I am currently aware of.

Midnite Rosie or Victron gear is what I have been recommending.

 

[Madcodger]

Midnite Rosie or Victron gear is what I have been recommending.

My opinion on less expensive Chinese-made equipment has changed dramatically over the past three years. I've owned Victron and love it but our current off-grid home is EG4 and we love it as well. Excellent price point and value for money that would have cost far more had I used Victron or Midnite. Will it last as long as Victron? I feel good about the batteries but am admittedly skeptical about the AIO inverters given the wear and tear that must be occurring based on the fan noise I hear. But a fan is easily replaced and we have three inverters when we really need only one most of the time, so that redundancy gives me comfort. For a separate, single room system that will power my office, I did go with Victron again because I can use a silent SCC and avoid that fan noise while staying at a decent price point. But I no longer advise people to use only the "old reliable" brands, when some of the newer brands are offering an amazing value that allows for built-in redundancy (IF you can deal with the fan noise).