Am I being a daft idiot?

[quantum`]

Sure, in-floor hydronic can't cool in Summer. That's why you use hydronic-coil air handlers.

Although, I do like my heated floors in Winter, especially with ceramic-tiled bathrooms.

 

[1201]

.

Any decent heat pump would compensate for this as it's monitoring internal telemetry. Newer ones run the fan (and compressor) using PWM so would speed up at higher altitudes to normalize the system. All DC.

• Mini-splits mean running refrigerant into the house which has lots of extra connections. (leak potential) 350psi vs 20psi for hydronic?
• Mini-splits make you install a gargantuan internal evap unit on the wall, unless in the rare case you have room to install an above-ceiling unit.
• Mini-splits in most cases are one outdoor unit and one indoor unit for each zone. This is ridiculous. Of course there are VRF units but few do their research, and VRF units have the same other drawbacks. The Frankenstein of mini-splits...
• Mini-splits can not heat DHW. Air-to-water can, with the same outdoor unit and a dedicated indoor buffer tank.
• Mini-splits can not be adapted to evac-tube solar.
• Mini-splits can't use the most advanced refrigerant (R-290) for safety reasons.
• Hydronic has been used in commercial buildings for 60 years, for a reason: it's the most efficient. Take a lesson.
• Monoblock air-to-water have all refrigerant in the outdoor unit, factory-sealed and tested.
• Monoblock air-to-water have a CoP approaching 5.

View attachment 282439

Mini-splits are a preposterous solution to me, and I'm a developer.

Shit, I'm OT. (White knuckles for getting relegated to Chit-Chat again...)

If hydronic has been used in commercial for decades why haven't it transitioned into residential?

Why does most of the world use mini splits in residential?

 

[Zwy]

When you say thermal storage I'm taking it as you don't mean buffer tank, or maybe you do?

Not really a buffer tank. In my case, I'm adding a gasification wood boiler with two 570 gallon tanks and one 375 gallon tank.

The larger tanks are shown in this thread.

Post in thread '5th day of no sun'

Nov 22, 2024

Outdoor wood boiler maybe? Something like: https://heatmasterss.com/

I found an nice fella out in West Virginia last winter that sold me his Ecko gasification unit. He was 83 and his wife told him he was done burning wood. He practically gave it to me, plus any extra parts and other things he had he gave me. I already had 1400 gallons of tanks for thermal storage.

I just need to add onto the house to have a place for it.

No outdoor wood boiler for me, I do own an Aquatherm too but decided to go to gasification. Here are 2 of the tanks that will be used for thermal storage...

• Zwy

• 

Curious as to what you have found is required for tank size and insulation to make it worthwhile to do this?

Most use 500 gallon LP tanks. Using a gasification boiler requires a hard and fast burn using a batch burn The heat generated needs to be removed quickly and thus the reason for the thermal storage tanks. When heat is called for, the water is circulated from the top of the tanks. The top will be hotter due to stratification.

The plan is to use air to water monoblock in the future as I get older and possibly not want to feed wood into the wood boiler, or in shoulder seasons to just use the monoblock to heat the thermal storage.

More info in this post.

Edit: it keeps linking the wrong post below

 

[Zwy]

This is the correct post

Post in thread '5th day of no sun'

Nov 22, 2024

That's pretty fancy right there... kind of up there with a sand battery and/or giant flywheel.

Keep us posted on how it works.

Right now I just use a traditional wood stove... the kids like that the living room is 78 degrees when its 40 and rainy outside.

With a gasification boiler that is properly engineered and designed, the fire is a batch burn. Hot, hard and fast. The heat is transferred away fast to the thermal storage. The wood is loaded to bring the tank temp up to 180°F (80°C) and the fire should burn out shortly after if you did it right. The heating system runs off the...

• Zwy

• 

 

[Zwy]

.

If hydronic has been used in commercial for decades why haven't it transitioned into residential?

Why does most of the world use mini splits in residential?

Installation costs are much greater with hydronic.

 

[1201]

Installation costs are much greater with hydronic.

I guess @quantum` left out that part.

Here's a question. In the summer can a hydronic heat pump create hot water as well as cool the house?

 

[Zwy]

Yes, desuperheater.

 

[Quattrohead]

Mini-splits mean running refrigerant into the house which has lots of extra connections. (leak potential) 350psi vs 20psi for hydronic?

I would rather leak gas than liquid.

Mini-splits make you install a gargantuan internal evap unit on the wall, unless in the rare case you have room to install an above-ceiling unit.

Wall units are no bigger than base board or radiators. Ceiling cassettes are good but pricy.

Mini-splits in most cases are one outdoor unit and one indoor unit for each zone.

One could argue redundancy. Multiple heads off one compressor are OK, but again expensive.

Mini-splits can not heat DHW

I guess we have something close, a hybrid water heater.

Mini-splits can't use the most advanced refrigerant (R-290)

They are now using R32, best of both R410 and R32

Air to air mini-splits have been used around the world for years, just now the USA catching up.

 

[PhilIA]

Does using a hydronic heat pump for DHW heated to 140f destroy the COP?

To OP, what happens if you take a vacation for a week during what happens to be a cold snap? I would want something I could set to keep the house from freezing and not worry about it. If you already have propane for on-demand hot water, I would personally choose a propane heater for the immediate solution then worry about upgrading my batteries later.

What's the feasibility of using an on-demand water heater for baseboard heat or a radiator?

 

[quantum`]

If hydronic has been used in commercial for decades why haven't it transitioned into residential?

Why does most of the world use mini splits in residential?

When you say "most of the world", you must mean the US.

Using water as a conveyance of energy is used by the rest of the world, Bubba.

Remember, we are 'better' than everyone else... {snigger}

Installation costs are much greater with hydronic.

I run my own crews, and do not put a cementitious layer over the tubing. My costs are much less and the thermal response is quicker, however the advantage of hydronic air handlers (cool in Summer) became apparent so that's what I use now.

I guess @quantum` left out that part.

Here's a question. In the summer can a hydronic heat pump create hot water as well as cool the house?

Why, yes.

I would rather leak gas than liquid.

Wall units are no bigger than base board or radiators. Ceiling cassettes are good but pricy.

One could argue redundancy. Multiple heads off one compressor are OK, but again expensive.

I guess we have something close, a hybrid water heater.

They are now using R32, best of both R410 and R32

Air to air mini-splits have been used around the world for years, just now the USA catching up.

We all make our own choices. My goal is to present a highly viable alternative. In my opinion, more information is better than less. Some do not agree.

R-410 has a GWP of 2,088, higher than that of R-22. R-32 has a GWP of more than 600, whereas R-290 has a GWP of 0.072, and as it is much more efficient than older refrigerants, the compressor and fan can be downsized! R-290 is simply the most advanced refrigerant in use today.

 

[1201]

When you say "most of the world", you must mean the US.

no, I mean everywhere else except the US, since we dont use mini splits here but if you go to other parts of the world they are very widely used. So why is that, if hydronic is so much better?

Using water as a conveyance of energy is used by the rest of the world, Bubba.

where?

 

[Hedges]

R-410 has a GWP of 2,088, higher than that of R-22. R-32 has a GWP of more than 600, whereas R-290 has a GWP of 0.072, and as it is much more efficient than older refrigerants, the compressor and fan can be downsized! R-290 is simply the most advanced refrigerant in use today.

Weren't Propane and Ammonia among the earliest refrigerants?
Then moved to safer alternatives like Freon.

R-290: Pros, Cons, & Comparisons to R22, R404A, & R134a | Super Radiator Coils

R-290 (propane) is a single-part refrigerant that can serve as a functional replacement of CFC & HFC refrigerants in refrigeration & HVAC equipment.

www.superradiatorcoils.com

Duracool 12 is similar. Not approved for typical consumer uses.
But I figure for use as R-12 replacement in equipment used exclusively outdoors, it is fine.

If you use R-290 in an outdoor unit and DiHydrogen Monoxide to transport heat into or out of occupied space, that I could go along with.

 

[quantum`]

I'm not here to bicker. I've made myself clear to native English speakers.

 

[ghostwriter66]

That sounds like work. I have a success rate better than 50% by just using the welder. No need to play with acid or flush the cells.

I have found there is some loss of capacity on starting batteries. Same as deep cycle that have had EQ charge done often. This is due to some loss of the lead plate. At some point, it is possible the damage to the lead plates from sulfation, then blowing the hard sulfation off the plate will create a weak spot sometimes high up on the plate, eventually that can break off. This can lead to a battery that self drains or has severely reduced capacity.

I've been running a recycled battery in my Honda Accord for 3 years but in cold weather it does not have the CCA it had new. I don't drive that car in winter due to road salt but do start it now and then in the shed. I've had other recycled batteries last a year or two before complete failure. My biggest problem is time. Each battery will kill over an hour as it gets cycled 5 times using the welder with the wait in between. I use 10 minutes cool down as the batteries will get hot.

what flushing does is remove all that old crude from the liquid and the scales on the anodes .... yes shocking it alone probably shakes off some of the stuff -- but you would be surprised how much gunk and junk comes out of these batteries ....

 

[Bluedog225]

what flushing does is remove all that old crude from the liquid and the scales on the anodes .... yes shocking it alone probably shakes off some of the stuff -- but you would be surprised how much gunk and junk comes out of these batteries ....

What do you do with the acid and crud? Seems like an expensive disposal. If done responsibly.

 

[Hedges]

Each oil company has proprietary gas additives ...

 

[StephenV]

Wanted to post a follow up here. I ended up going the don’t be a daft idiot route and am so happy for all the advice received here. Got a very simple $500 ventless propane unit (see picture attached) and lender signed off on the project. Went with bolstering our aging/failing battery bank and got for Midnite Powerflo5 5.2Kwh batteries that I successfully tied into the existing system. Took a little doing with the older Magnum inverter.

Thanks again for all the advice and help here!

 

[NC_hydro]

Nice!

 

[jimf909]

Thanks for closing the loop. You have a spectacularly beautiful spot. I guarantee that one day you'll really appreciate the stupid heater that the lender required. The reliable battery bank with added capacity also won't be lost on you when there are a few cloudy days and you realize that your battery anxiety has floated away.

 

[glandpuck]

View attachment 288720

Thanks for closing the loop. You have a spectacularly beautiful spot. I guarantee that one day you'll really appreciate the stupid heater that the lender required. The reliable battery bank with added capacity also won't be lost on you when there are a few cloudy days and you realize that your battery anxiety has floated away.

You must have been a fan of the TV show "Last man on Earth".

Let us know how things work out.

 

[jimf909]

You must have been a fan of the TV show "Last man on Earth".

Let us know how things work out.

Things are working out in fine fashion. As for tv shows, they’re battery acid for the soul.

 

[glandpuck]

Things are working out in fine fashion. As for tv shows, they’re battery acid for the soul.

View attachment 289156

Sir, I take umbrage to that!

As a retiree, I wholeheartedly enjoy:

"The Price is Right with Drew Carey"

"Here it comes, television's most exciting hour! Come on down!"

Fabulous prizes won and an hour of absolutely no thinking required, just fun.

Fun for MAGA, fun for LIBS.

 

[jimf909]

You raise a good point. I'll reconsider my position.

 

[quantum`]

View attachment 289156

Reminds me of that sheriff's deputy who put down his shotgun butt down and set his elbow on top. Blew his arm off and he had rags of skin on that arm and his other hand was dangling loose. He was SURPRISED! He sheepishly followed another deputy, presumably to the hospital.

On most TV shows, waste of your life.
Read.
Use it, or lose it.

 

[glandpuck]

Reminds me of that sheriff's deputy who put down his shotgun butt down and set his elbow on top. Blew his arm off and he had rags of skin on that arm and his other hand was dangling loose. He was SURPRISED! He sheepishly followed another deputy, presumably to the hospital.

On most TV shows, waste of your life.
Read.
Use it, or lose it.

I have yet to meet a person whose accomplishments were greater by reading library books than watching TV.

There is story after story of criminals being caught because they followed a plan they saw in the movies or on tv. And many who read books and read the google on how to get away with murder always get caught.

If reading releases your endogenous endorphins or watching an episode of Full House or Hawaii 50, so be it. It's your brain cranking out the chemicals.