Am I Crazy? Seems like a Lot more Off Grid System being Built by Grid Users Lately

[MrM1]

I built my lil off grid system to assist my grid powered house 4 years ago. At the time People asked me was I was "Crazy", "You Need a Sanity Check", "Why would you build an off grid system for your house if you are grid connected AND your cost per kWh was about $0.11" . I was told I would Never see an ROI.
- Why don't you go grid tie, they said.
- You are just wasting money, they said.

Well I knew I would not see an ROI, and that was never my point. I was building it:
1. For a "what if" scenario. What if the power goes out, or a hurricane sweeps thru, or worse
2. And I enjoy it as a hobby. I dont, golf, boat, etc.
3. And I did not want to fool with permission to connect to the grid

Now it seems that more and more people are building off grid / grid assist systems for there homes. Not grid tied, just battery based off grid that either have automatic transfer switches (like a UPS) or will actually assist the gird in providing loads to the home, thus lower grid power consumption. And when the power goes out, the home still has power (sometimes full power, sometimes a limited / select circuits of power.

Is it just me, or with the advent of larger and larger AIO systems, more and more people are doing this?

 

[Bluedog225]

Lots of people in the south realized at the last cold snap that their grid tied systems weren’t worth didly when it mattered. Grid tie is an awkward marriage with the utility.

 

[fafrd]

I built my lil off grid system to assist my grid powered house 4 years ago. At the time People asked me was I was "Crazy", "You Need a Sanity Check", "Why would you build an off grid system for your house if you are grid connected AND your cost per kWh was about $0.11" . I was told I would Never see an ROI.
- Why don't you go grid tie, they said.
- You are just wasting money, they said.

Well I knew I would not see an ROI, and that was never my point. I was building it:
1. For a "what if" scenario. What if the power goes out, or a hurricane sweeps thru, or worse
2. And I enjoy it as a hobby. I dont, golf, boat, etc.
3. And I did not want to fool with permission to connect to the grid

Now it seems that more and more people are building off grid / grid assist systems for there homes. Not grid tied, just battery based off grid that either have automatic transfer switches (like a UPS) or will actually assist the gird in providing loads to the home, thus lower grid power consumption. And when the power goes out, the home still has power (sometimes full power, sometimes a limited / select circuits of power.

Is it just me, or with the advent of larger and larger AIO systems, more and more people are doing this?

Part of it is driven by increased power outage concerns (for example PSPS shut offs for fire-prevention here in California).

Part of it is motivated by the ever-worsening rules governing NEM agreements making them less and less attractive.

And part of it is driven by the dual trends of ever-increasing electricity rates and ever-decreasing solar and battery costs.

We’ll see what California’s CPUC ends up deciding next week, but my guess is that a zero-export DC-coupled battery-based export system to offset self-consumption while relying on the grid to supply peak power for loads way beyond average such as motor inrush current as well as energy during periods of poor solar production (overcast, depths of winter) will prove to be the sweet spot going forward.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I guess part of it is also that it's financially and technically a lot more feasible to do today than it was four years ago.

 

[Dzl]

I think consciously and sub-consciously Covid, The Texas grid debacle, the upsurge in natural disasters, large forest fires, mudslides in BC, etc, and the massive popularity of the zombie-apocolypse-dystopia genre (chicken or egg, idk), and prepping-as-a-hobby trends has probably caused the idea of self-sufficiency to be more forward in peoples' minds these days.

Of course the availability of and awareness of lower cost easier to source/build parts and systems is probably also a big part of it.

 

[Rednecktek]

I guess part of it is also that it's financially and technically a lot more feasible to do today than it was four years ago.

True that! When I bought my property in Eastern, WA 4 years ago, I could spend $FATBUKS for a solar system that would run my camp for days but my well pump for about 20 min of run time per day, and I had to get perfect sun to recover that the next day. So I opted to go for just getting grid power for less than 1/2 the solar cost.

On the other hand, I bought enough panels and parts to take the camp off grid (sans well pump) for a few days without sun for about half what the grid connection cost me.

Yeah, it's come down a LOT and become a LOT more accessible to your average joe who knows the operating end of a multi-meter.

 

[BMcL]

Well I knew I would not see an ROI, and that was never my point. I was building it:
1. For a "what if" scenario. What if the power goes out, or a hurricane sweeps thru, or worse
2. And I enjoy it as a hobby. I dont, golf, boat, etc.
3. And I did not want to fool with permission to connect to the grid

I am doing exactly what you are doing. Same reasons.
You should fear the grid going down for a long time. We are very vulnerable here in America,
as we are very dependent on natural gas pipelines supplying about half of our power.

A coordinated attack could shut the grid down for months. I don't like to live without AC, and it gets HOT in Tennessee.

 

[BMcL]

I guess part of it is also that it's financially and technically a lot more feasible to do today than it was four years ago.

Picking an inverter has turned into a semi-nightmare.
I love the Outback 8kw unit, but I think I need two of them (about $8000). And since they don't have SCC's built-in, the cost goes WAY up.

Right now I think I'm going to gamble on MPP Solar's LVX6048WP ($1900). It can supply 6000 watts (it's stackable, so I'll use two for 12kw).
And it can handle 7500 watts PV input @ 600 volts !
So 15,000 watts for two units; this is the reason I prefer it over the Growatt 12 kw, which can only handle a lowly 7000 watts.

The MPP LVX6048WP is a heavy low-frequency model and the first of it's type made by them.
So it's a gamble if it will be reliable.

 

[740GLE]

We bought an off grid camp that will be getting a modest install. Our primary house use is way to low to make financial sense and we have a whole house portable generator for emergencies. In 8 years living here, it hasn’t seen 10 hours of run time.

 

[MrM1]

We bought an off grid camp that will be getting a modest install. Our primary house use is way to low to make financial sense and we have a whole house portable generator for emergencies. In 8 years living here, it hasn’t seen 10 hours of run time.

Yeah that's us too. 4+ years ago I was planning out the design of my system in the dark due to a hurricane outage. We were down for 4 days. Now we've not seen an outage since I installed.

 

[MrM1]

I am doing exactly what you are doing. Same reasons.
You should fear the grid going down for a long time. We are very vulnerable here in America,
as we are very dependent on natural gas pipelines supplying about half of our power.

A coordinated attack could shut the grid down for months. I don't like to live without AC, and it gets HOT in Tennessee.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm right there with you. It's just a matter of time. Just not sure any of us really wanna be here (or really have any idea what it would really be like) if it does come to something like that. So having things like power or ac might be a moot point.

 

[MrM1]

Picking an inverter has turned into a semi-nightmare.
I love the Outback 8kw unit, but I think I need two of them (about $8000). And since they don't have SCC's built-in, the cost goes WAY up.

Right now I think I'm going to gamble on MPP Solar's LVX6048WP ($1900). It can supply 6000 watts (it's stackable, so I'll use two for 12kw).
And it can handle 7500 watts PV input @ 600 volts !
So 15,000 watts for two units; this is the reason I prefer it over the Growatt 12 kw, which can only handle a lowly 7000 watts.

The MPP LVX6048WP is a heavy low-frequency model and the first of it's type made by them.
So it's a gamble if it will be reliable.

Did not realize that unit was low frequency

 

[Skid]

I live in Nicaragua where if I use more than 150kwh a month the cost is .35/kwh. This in a country with an average income of less than $250 a month. With that comes several power outages a day, some 1/2 second, some 10 minutes, once a month 18-24 hours. Voltage varies from 100-130. The grid killed a 2 year old microwave last month and waiting for the freezer to blow up.
So the cost is almost beside the point. Next month I hope to have a completely autonomous system that, with my 5-6kwh average day would pay for itself in about 8 years. Almost any investment, including a checking account, would give a better return than that but I will have consistent, reliable power the rest of my life.

 

[MrM1]

For me 4 years ago it was nearly cost- prohibitive. Cost was right at $7k including 4 L16 batteries. Can run all my lights, receptacles, power tools, well pump, fans, microwave, coffee pot, starter for the stove (gas stove running on 20 lbs tank - we have 6 tanks good for about 1.5 years. We use 20 lbs every 3 months). No AC. We run all that off grid 24/7 on a 4000 watt Schneider Conext SW4024 inverter and MidNite Classic 150 and 2600w of solar.

I have since upgraded and swapped out to 8s3p lfp batteries. Installing another 2600w array in the next few weeks. Not yet expanding the charge controller. Not sure which way I want to go.

Moving toward installing a 1 ton mini split heat pump in the master bedroom.

 

[MrM1]

Picking an inverter has turned into a semi-nightmare.
I love the Outback 8kw unit, but I think I need two of them (about $8000). And since they don't have SCC's built-in, the cost goes WAY up.

Right now I think I'm going to gamble on MPP Solar's LVX6048WP ($1900). It can supply 6000 watts (it's stackable, so I'll use two for 12kw).
And it can handle 7500 watts PV input @ 600 volts !
So 15,000 watts for two units; this is the reason I prefer it over the Growatt 12 kw, which can only handle a lowly 7000 watts.

The MPP LVX6048WP is a heavy low-frequency model and the first of it's type made by them.
So it's a gamble if it will be reliable.

What is the idle power consumption of a single LVX6548? Will that number double when you stack 2 units?

 

[wattmatters]

In Australia grid-tied solar PV has made strong financial sense for the last 6-7 years, and still does. Payback times are typically 3-5 years. Which explains why 25% of households have a grid tied system and that proportion will climb to around 40% in the years ahead.

Off-grid systems with no grid connection are rarer, usually confined to locations where connecting to the grid is prohibitively expensive. Usually these are not DIY systems, but installed by specialists.

Off-grid systems with a grid connection are in the realm of the home hobbyist/enthusiast. The DIYer will be doing this stuff while ever grid tied battery systems (e.g. Telsa Powerwall etc) cost a fortune.

Those on grid who want a backup system typically instal an expensive grid-tied battery system. Less than 1% of homes would have a gird tied battery system along with their solar PV system. Generator backup is uncommon, this is more a rural and commercial building thing.

In stark contrast to grid-tied solar PV, the economics of grid-tied batteries are crap/abysmal. So it's mostly early adopters only where the $ isn't a factor or they have been mislead into thinking it's going to save them money.

The grid here is very reliable for the most part. It can be a little less so in rural/regional areas mainly because the transmission infrastructure is more vulnerable to inclement weather (trees down during to storms) and natural disasters (fires and floods typically).

Being in a rural/regional area we experience far more outages than we ever did in the city. In 20 years in my city home the power went out perhaps once, maybe twice. We average about a dozen outages a year here in our rural paradise. Hence the additional of backup, which has progressed over the years to the off-grid solar PV/battery system I now have. But our grid-tied system went in some years ago, that was a higher priority and has a pretty decent return, payback in the 4-5 year range.

 

[fafrd]

In Australia grid-tied solar PV has made strong financial sense for the last 6-7 years, and still does. Payback times are typically 3-5 years. Which explains why 25% of households have a grid tied system and that proportion will climb to around 40% in the years ahead.

Off-grid systems with no grid connection are rarer, usually confined to locations where connecting to the grid is prohibitively expensive. Usually these are not DIY systems, but installed by specialists.

Off-grid systems with a grid connection are in the realm of the home hobbyist/enthusiast. The DIYer will be doing this stuff while ever grid tied battery systems (e.g. Telsa Powerwall etc) cost a fortune.

Those on grid who want a backup system typically instal an expensive grid-tied battery system. Less than 1% of homes would have a gird tied battery system along with their solar PV system. Generator backup is uncommon, this is more a rural and commercial building thing.

In stark contrast to grid-tied solar PV, the economics of grid-tied batteries are crap/abysmal. So it's mostly early adopters only where the $ isn't a factor or they have been mislead into thinking it's going to save them money.

The grid here is very reliable for the most part. It can be a little less so in rural/regional areas mainly because the transmission infrastructure is more vulnerable to inclement weather (trees down during to storms) and natural disasters (fires and floods typically).

Being in a rural/regional area we experience far more outages than we ever did in the city. In 20 years in my city home the power went out perhaps once, maybe twice. We average about a dozen outages a year here in our rural paradise. Hence the additional of backup, which has progressed over the years to the off-grid solar PV/battery system I now have. But our grid-tied system went in some years ago, that was a higher priority and has a pretty decent return, payback in the 4-5 year range.

You guys must pay even more for your electricity than we do here in California (~$0.45 peak, $0.20 off-peak) !

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Did not realize that unit was low frequency

The Mpp Solar hybrid inverter I looked at a few years ago (230V, 50 Hz) used high frequency technology. Small transformers, etc.

A nice inverter/charger I thought especially for the price.

 

[MrM1]

The Mpp Solar hybrid inverter I looked at a few years ago (230V, 50 Hz) used high frequency technology. Small transformers, etc.

A nice inverter/charger I thought especially for the price.

Argeed. I would have thought hi frequency too, but @BMcL notes his as low. So I do not know.

 

[wattmatters]

You guys must pay even more for your electricity than we do here in California (~$0.45 peak, $0.20 off-peak) !

Not really. My peak tariff is ~21.5c (US cents equivalent) and off-peak is 11c/kWh. But it does vary depending on where you are in the country.

And we don't get 1:1 for power fed back to the grid, our feed in tariffs are falling. At the moment I get ~5c/kWh for power fed back to the grid.

The big difference here is that even though overall incentives for installing small scale solar PV are similar, grid-tied solar PV is way, way cheaper to get installed here than in the USA.

Typically you'll pay ~US $500-700/kW for grid tied rooftop solar PV installed by solar PV professionals. More for say an Enphase system (up to US$1000/kW). This means the amortised cost per kWh over 20 years is ~3-4c/kWh. Call it 5c/kWh if you allow for slightly shorter life from your inverter.

In some places the cost to install can be as low as US$300/kW.

We have a very efficient solar PV installation industry.