Another Victron Quattro vs MultiPlus-II question

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I did some quick cost gathering for similar systems from Victron, Midnight Solar and Sol-Ark, and with components vs all-in-one units. For my setup, the Victron equipment came out the clear leader for cost over capacity, and also has a familiar monitoring system through the Cerbo. (I use a Venus RPi in my trailer)

Now I need to understand what the differences are between Quattro and MultiPlus-II inverters.

This will most likely be either 2 x Quattro 10kVA or 4 x MP-II 5kVA, plus the Lynx bus system, and 4 x EG4 indoor 14.3kWh batteries.

What are some of the diffs between the two that I should be aware of?

 

[cdsolar]

1 AC-in vs 2 AC-in Multiplus II vs Quattro

Quattro 10kva has a UL listed version (ask for the UL when ordering so you don't get really old stock that isn't UL ) Multiplus II 5kva is not UL (in progress they say)

Check the two spec sheets for Max continuos output and Max surge. Are these numbers really exactly 1/2 on the 5kva - you should know if these numbers meet your needs. Edit: 5kva is NOT 5000W continuous output.

Split-phase will be your configuration?

If the system is to be built in California based on your location, be certain your config meets AHJ requirements, including paired inverter/battery approved configurations that I understand are a thing there.

That is, assuming inspection is something you will want ...

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It looks like the Quattros are transformer-based and the MultiPlus-IIs are MOSFET-based. Is my assessment correct on that? @sunshine_eggo Do you have any input on this point? That tells me they will behave differently in the face of various load conditions. Is there anything to know about that?

I won't need any AC inputs, as I am setting up off-grid. I guess I might use an AC input for Gen charging instead of buying an EG4 Chargeverter. But that decision is for a different moment in my planning.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

It looks like the Quattros are transformer-based and the MultiPlus-IIs are MOSFET-based. Is my assessment correct on that? @sunshine_eggo Do you have any input on this point? That tells me they will behave differently in the face of various load conditions. Is there anything to know about that?

Nope. They are both FET and transformer based. The FETs generate the sine wave signal. The transformers handle the oomph.

They are functionally identical with improved efficiency on the "II" line.

Not sure what that massive thing could be but a transformer.

 

[HRTKD]

That tells me they will behave differently in the face of various load conditions.

The Quattro and Multiplus lines are not mirror images. No 48/3000 on the Multiplus I side, you have to step up to the Multiplus II. My 30 amp toy hauler didn't need the Multiplus II features and the size/form factor of the Multiplus II wouldn't fit when the Quattro would.

I had a Multiplus I 12/3000 in my prior trailer. The new trailer will have the Quattro 48/3000. The Multiplus I would have powered everything in the new trailer, it just didn't support 48v. So I disagree that they would behave differently.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Nope. They are both FET and transformer based. The FETs generate the sine wave signal. The transformers handle the oomph.

They are functionally identical with improved efficiency on the "II" line.

Not sure what that massive thing could be but a transformer.

Sweet! I didn't find an interior shot of the MP-II (and as I typed that I realized I only assumed MP-IIs are FET-only.). OK, so now it's just a decision of minor details. Size and qty might become a problem. After I cleared most of the wall in my garage, I measured only 9ft wide, which needs to fit the inverters and SCC, plus two new breaker panels.

I'm gonna need a bigger wall.

 

[740GLE]

Idle consumption of the MP II is about half that of the Quattro if that’s a concern for you.

The weight of the MP II is quite shocking, the 3k is 42lbs, the 5k is 66lbs.

You do know if you go with the 5k MP II they’ll offer the 10k in 120v variant the next week.

 

[HRTKD]

The weight of the MP II is quite shocking, the 3k is 42lbs, the 5k is 66lbs.

That was a point that kept me from moving up to a 5k Quattro. I don't need 5k, but I thought about it. My system is heavy enough as it is.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The Quattro 10kVA is 128lbs!! And I would have to mount two of them on my wall?!?

 

[ricardocello]

The Quattro 10kVA is 128lbs!! And I would have to mount two of them on my wall?!?

You wanted transformers, you got 'em.

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

Nope. They are both FET and transformer based. The FETs generate the sine wave signal. The transformers handle the oomph.

They are functionally identical with improved efficiency on the "II" line.

Not sure what that massive thing could be but a transformer.

That is that dc side do not contact the dc to ac part.
Its dual coil .
Still boths side are 12/24/48 volts .
Its isolate so that no feedback can come to your battery. (Boat iso law )

All Victron Inverters have one .
Even the 12/1200ve unit .
Reason it cost a lot.

 

[ChrisG]

You do know if you go with the 5k MP II they’ll offer the 10k in 120v variant the next week.

Interesting...where was this announced?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Looking like 4 x MultiPlus-II is going to be my solution. Between the weight and idle power draw, I think the rest of the features are close enough to parity. I will also be able to use slightly lighter gauge wires, if a lot more of them. Oof.

I'm targeting 10-20kW, as I am not able to monitor my usage, due to having a crappy main panel and no ability to put CTs on my main feed wires. Part of this project is upgrading and relocating my main panel. I'm using smart outlets and similar devices for HVAC and as many loads as I can put them on. I'm measuring a peak of 9kW on super hot days/cold nights. Based on total consumption from the PoCo vs measured, I'm estimating about 1-1.5kW of unaccounted for load. And I have 24 370W Aptos Bi-facial panels (8880W STC).

BTW, here is my comparison info. If you find anything important missing from one or two options, let me know and I'll redo the numbers. Rounded UP to the next $1K.

Core system components only:

• Victron Q: $22K for 20kVA
  • 2 Quattro (10kVA ea)
  • 1 Cerbo GX
  • 1 Lynx bus system
  • 1 MPPT RS 450V/200A (9kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries (14.3kWh ea)
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Victron MP-II: $23K for 20kVA
  • 4 MultiPlus-II (5kVA ea)
  • 1 Cerbo GX
  • 1 Lynx bus system
  • 1 MPPT RS 450V/200A (9kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Midnight Solar components: $26K for 14kW. (I was really hoping this would be a good option. MS inverters seem to handle a lot of abuse. And they look really cool. )
  • 2 Rosie inverters + breakers (7kW ea)
  • 1 Barcelona SCC + breakers (10kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Midnight Solar AiO: $18K for 11.4kW
  • 1 MS The One AiO (11.4kW inv, 15kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Sol-Ark AiO: $20K for 12kW
  • 1 Sol-Ark 15K AiO (12kW inv, 15kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor
  • 1 Chargeverter

 

[740GLE]

Interesting...where was this announced?

They have a 10k MP II but euro spec 230v only.

Soon as koya orders his 4 5ks you know they’ll offer the 10k because it’s ironic.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I wish the 8K was available in US output. 2 x 8kW would be a better match for what I need than 2 x 10kW.

 

[samwhammy]

They really need 8k or 10k split phase multiplus II's for the US market! Their sales would skyrocket!

 

[cdsolar]

They really need 8k or 10k split phase multiplus II's for the US market! Their sales would skyrocket!

Finishing the UL for the Multiplus II 5kva would definitely help too!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Finishing the UL for the Multiplus II 5kva would definitely help too!

That's the thing... The 48/5000 has been UL pending for a very long time... then the Quattro 48/10K comes out with full UL with basically no warning. I don't get it.

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

That's the thing... The 48/5000 has been UL pending for a very long time... then the Quattro 48/10K comes out with full UL with basically no warning. I don't get it.

Stuck in the usa test systeem ?
Or somting not correct and have to adjust?
Wel the 48/10k is beult speciale with the ul license in mind

Think somting like that

 

[cdsolar]

Stuck in the usa test systeem ?
Or somting not correct and have to adjust?
Wel the 48/10k is beult speciale with the ul license in mind

Think somting like that

As I understand it for the 3kva 48 V UL which I own and use to power my barn, they had to increase the size of the wiring compartment for UL.

I have never seen firsthand a 5kva 48V. Does it need the same change?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Finishing the UL for the Multiplus II 5kva would definitely help too!

Well, crap. The latest datasheet agrees with this problem. Looks like I'm going with Quattro if I want Victron. Of course the non-US models don't have the necessary approvals either. So I can't even try with a 2x8K or a 15K MP-II and an auto-transformer.

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

As I understand it for the 3kva 48 V UL which I own and use to power my barn, they had to increase the size of the wiring compartment for UL.

I have never seen firsthand a 5kva 48V. Does it need the same change?

If the unit have the same housing .
Than yes.

If the 10k have a bigger house (bigger coil) than its already adjust for usa standard .

 

[Rocketman]

You asked if anything is missing from your list… (don’t think there is anything missing - but maybe different ways of doing things).

If it were me, I would add a BMV712 shunt for the battery monitoring (unless your chosen batteries will report that for the Cerbo).

Also, I have become a big fan of connecting multiple batteries to a Victron PowerIn with equal length cables. Victron has just come out with a class T fuse PowerIn - which sounds interesting- that way each battery is protected by a class T fuse. (Unless your batteries already have one built in).

Some people have mentioned getting two MPPT 450/100 vs one 450/200 - only costs a little more - then it’s insurance in case one ever has a problem - you don’t lose all solar. (But it probably takes up more wall space).

On the inverters - I would probably go with the two 10k vs four 5k’s. I think it would be simpler to setup and operate.

Good Luck - sounds like a fun project.

 

[cdsolar]

Looking like 4 x MultiPlus-II is going to be my solution. Between the weight and idle power draw, I think the rest of the features are close enough to parity. I will also be able to use slightly lighter gauge wires, if a lot more of them. Oof.

I'm targeting 10-20kW, as I am not able to monitor my usage, due to having a crappy main panel and no ability to put CTs on my main feed wires. Part of this project is upgrading and relocating my main panel. I'm using smart outlets and similar devices for HVAC and as many loads as I can put them on. I'm measuring a peak of 9kW on super hot days/cold nights. Based on total consumption from the PoCo vs measured, I'm estimating about 1-1.5kW of unaccounted for load. And I have 24 370W Aptos Bi-facial panels (8880W STC).

BTW, here is my comparison info. If you find anything important missing from one or two options, let me know and I'll redo the numbers. Rounded UP to the next $1K.

Core system components only:

• Victron Q: $22K for 20kVA
  • 2 Quattro (10kVA ea)
  • 1 Cerbo GX
  • 1 Lynx bus system
  • 1 MPPT RS 450V/200A (9kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries (14.3kWh ea)
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Victron MP-II: $23K for 20kVA
  • 4 MultiPlus-II (5kVA ea)
  • 1 Cerbo GX
  • 1 Lynx bus system
  • 1 MPPT RS 450V/200A (9kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Midnight Solar components: $26K for 14kW. (I was really hoping this would be a good option. MS inverters seem to handle a lot of abuse. And they look really cool. )
  • 2 Rosie inverters + breakers (7kW ea)
  • 1 Barcelona SCC + breakers (10kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Midnight Solar AiO: $18K for 11.4kW
  • 1 MS The One AiO (11.4kW inv, 15kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor batteries
  • 1 Chargeverter
• Sol-Ark AiO: $20K for 12kW
  • 1 Sol-Ark 15K AiO (12kW inv, 15kW PV)
  • 4 EG4 indoor
  • 1 Chargeverter

Can you tell us your use case for the chargeverter? The Victron inverters, for example, are also chargers, so I am wondering what you will use the chargeverter for. I can think of several, such as: charging individual batteries initially or when problems arise, using it to charge batteries from grid because AHJ won't allow the Victrons to connect to grid AC for unfounded fear of back feeding when otherwise configured not to, etc. Thanks.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Can you tell us your use case for the chargeverter? The Victron inverters, for example, are also chargers, so I am wondering what you will use the chargeverter for. I can think of several, such as: charging individual batteries initially or when problems arise, using it to charge batteries from grid because AHJ won't allow the Victrons to connect to grid AC for unfounded fear of back feeding when otherwise configured not to, etc. Thanks.

Still up in the air. I haven't gone through the detailed review to see how, exactly, things will wire together. So, it will depend on how the AC inputs on the inverters behave. If I can charge without any concern for backfeeding, and without interfering with AC inversion, I'll use the internal charger for at least generator charging, and probably also grid charging. From what I have seen so far, inverter/chargers can't do both at the same time - they either invert or charge. I'm not certain on that point, though, as I am not at that level of detail yet.

So, I will either get 1-2 Chargeverters to cover grid and gen charging, or I'll be able to connect to the AC inputs. But also, I do want abilities like charging one battery as a diagnostic. And in the grand scheme of things, the Chargeverters are cheap enough to just have one on hand, whether I need it right now or not.