Any "final answer" on EG4 battery cycle count confusion?

[macdaman]

I've read quite a few posts on the issue of incorrect cycle counts on EG4 batteries and couldn't find any that summarized the issue. As best I can tell:
- if one has the "most recent" firmware, it corrects the cycle count
- the cycle count is supposed to be an 80% discharge/recharge cycle
- the cycle count does NOT affect the warranty on the battery
- apparently, one can not determine the firmware version without disconnecting from the inverter and running the PC program separately.

It's 12/29 as I type this. My system was delivered on 12/12. One would think I'd have at LEAST the firmware referenced in posts from several months ago. My unit has 11 days of operation on it yet I'm seeing cycle counts of 26/22/22 on the three LL-S batteries. I certainly have not cycled them 2x80% per day.

Q1 - one question I never saw definitively answered was whether the BMS accurately counts cycles, regardless of what the monitor states. The question was asked several times but I didn't see an authoritative answer. Does it? regardless of firmware version?
Q2 - Is there any way to determine the firmware version without going through the hassle of running the separate BMS program?
Q3 - If warranty doesn't apply and, after seeing several threads of people fearful of bricking their batteries, should I care?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

@EG4TechSolutionsTeam

 

[Crowz]

I saw the title of this thread "EGR cycle count" and thought COOL car stuff. Oh well....

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I saw the title of this thread "EGR cycle count" and thought COOL car stuff. Oh well....

I clicked that subject with uncertainty...

 

[EG4TechSolutionsTeam]

Q1 - one question I never saw definitively answered was whether the BMS accurately counts cycles, regardless of what the monitor states. The question was asked several times but I didn't see an authoritative answer. Does it? regardless of firmware version?

Yes, the monitoring website should be reading the correct count cycles as well. If it doesn't let us know and we will look further into this.

Q2 - Is there any way to determine the firmware version without going through the hassle of running the separate BMS program?

Unfortunately, at this time, the software is required to view the battery's firmware version.

Q3 - If warranty doesn't apply and, after seeing several threads of people fearful of bricking their batteries, should I care?

It's always best to follow the recommended guidelines for updating the battery firmware. If you need assistance, feel free to reach out to us, and we’ll guide you through the steps to ensure everything is done correctly and prevent any issues.

 

[macdaman]

Yes, the monitoring website should be reading the correct count cycles as well. If it doesn't let us know and we will look further into this.

Unfortunately, at this time, the software is required to view the battery's firmware version.

It's always best to follow the recommended guidelines for updating the battery firmware. If you need assistance, feel free to reach out to us, and we’ll guide you through the steps to ensure everything is done correctly and prevent any issues.

How do we proceed? With now only a single day having gone by since my post yesterday, the cycle count has increased by three on each battery.

 

[macdaman]

Yes, the monitoring website should be reading the correct count cycles as well. If it doesn't let us know and we will look further into this.

Unfortunately, at this time, the software is required to view the battery's firmware version.

It's always best to follow the recommended guidelines for updating the battery firmware. If you need assistance, feel free to reach out to us, and we’ll guide you through the steps to ensure everything is done correctly and prevent any issues.

I've done screen shots for each day. It seems we go through a few days with no increment and then one day with three???

On the 31st, my three batteries were sitting at 29,25,25 cycles. On the 1st, again 29, 25, 25 cycles. This morning - the 2nd, I'm now up to 32,28,28 - a jump of 3 cycles. The batteries are more or less used in an identical fashion on all three days. I certainly went through at least 80% on the 31st and 1st with no increment and now a bump of 3 cycles???

@EG4TechSolutionsTeam

 

[macdaman]

@SignatureSolarJess

 

[Brucey]

I've done screen shots for each day. It seems we go through a few days with no increment and then one day with three???

On the 31st, my three batteries were sitting at 29,25,25 cycles. On the 1st, again 29, 25, 25 cycles. This morning - the 2nd, I'm now up to 32,28,28 - a jump of 3 cycles. The batteries are more or less used in an identical fashion on all three days. I certainly went through at least 80% on the 31st and 1st with no increment and now a bump of 3 cycles???

@EG4TechSolutionsTeam

I think the firmware bug flags a charge cycle when it passes thru 90% or something like that. So you could see multiple cycles per day depending where your battery soc and solar charging is at.

 

[macdaman]

I think the firmware bug flags a charge cycle when it passes thru 90% or something like that. So you could see multiple cycles per day depending where your battery soc and solar charging is at.

Two of those three days went from 37% to 90%.

 

[SignatureSolarJess]

Not something I've seen before. I'll ask around - @EG4TechSolutionsTeam - Any ideas?

 

[TM48]

I have to ask what is the definition of a cycle? And of what use do you put it to?

 

[macdaman]

I have to ask what is the definition of a cycle? And of what use do you put it to?

Each battery maintains a "cycle count" which is supposed to represent something along the lines of a 80% discharge/recharge. The batteries are advertised to have a certain cycle count before the battery efficiency drops to 80%. I believe the LL-S batteries are advertised with a 6000 cycle count.

My concern is with what happens to any warranty or service I might get if this cycle count is incorrect. For example, as of this moment, my #1 battery has been powered on for 15 days yet shows a cycle count of 35. I can assure you that it hasn't gone through that many cycles. I have a total of 15kWh (3 batteries) yet only have a consumption average each day of 12kWh. I should be averaging less than 1 cycle per day.

When I hit 6000 cycles, I'll probably have less than 3000 actual cycles under my belt. I've read in some other threads that warranties are handled on a prorated basis. Hopefully, this will never be an issue but, how can one argue with a number that's generated by the equipment even if it appears to be incorrect.

 

[TM48]

Each battery maintains a "cycle count" which is supposed to represent something along the lines of a 80% discharge/recharge. The batteries are advertised to have a certain cycle count before the battery efficiency drops to 80%. I believe the LL-S batteries are advertised with a 6000 cycle count.

My concern is with what happens to any warranty or service I might get if this cycle count is incorrect. For example, as of this moment, my #1 battery has been powered on for 15 days yet shows a cycle count of 35. I can assure you that it hasn't gone through that many cycles. I have a total of 15kWh (3 batteries) yet only have a consumption average each day of 12kWh. I should be averaging less than 1 cycle per day.

When I hit 6000 cycles, I'll probably have less than 3000 actual cycles under my belt. I've read in some other threads that warranties are handled on a prorated basis. Hopefully, this will never be an issue but, how can one argue with a number that's generated by the equipment even if it appears to be incorrect.

I understand that. But I again ask what constitutes a cycle. What I'm getting at is there is no universal definition. The concept of a "cycle" is an attempt to normalize something which is actually random. Since the SOC is actually directly dependent on the weather which is random no consistent definition of a cycle is actually possible. Now many battery manufacturers do publish an implied # of cycle parameters but rarely define what that actually means. We could define a cycle to be any set of values we can dream up. What do you think a cycle should be defined as? As far as warranties what I've read says the warranties are pro-rated on time not on any # of cycles. Have you ever heard of a denied warranty claim based on cycles? Personally I don't pay any attention to the cycles as I don't see that metric having any value at all.

 

[macdaman]

I understand that. But I again ask what constitutes a cycle. What I'm getting at is there is no universal definition. The concept of a "cycle" is an attempt to normalize something which is actually random. Since the SOC is actually directly dependent on the weather which is random no consistent definition of a cycle is actually possible. Now many battery manufacturers do publish an implied # of cycle parameters but rarely define what that actually means. We could define a cycle to be any set of values we can dream up. What do you think a cycle should be defined as? As far as warranties what I've read says the warranties are pro-rated on time not on any # of cycles. Have you ever heard of a denied warranty claim based on cycles? Personally I don't pay any attention to the cycles as I don't see that metric having any value at all.

In other posts, EG4 has stated that a cumulative charge/discharge of 80% equals one cycle. So, for example, if SOC is 100% and I discharge the battery to 20% and then recharge it to 100%, that's 1 cycle. I could also discharge it over the course of 4 days at 20% per day and then charge it up once and would only see 1 cycle.

I'm hoping you are correct about the pro-rate process. The warranty page does note this but has a line that concerns me "Damages caused by improper maintenance or operating outside the specified operating conditions". If "specified operating conditions" doesn't include things not specifically noted in the manual, we're golden. However, how many times have we heard a manufacturer use some of the weasel words to make a claim that you "improperly" operated the device.

I would feel more comfortable if I knew for sure the cycles wouldn't affect me. Having said that, EG4 does state that the batteries do degrade over time when used and the metric thrown around is a degradation of 20% (leaving 80% efficiency) over 6000 cycles. Having that number shown somewhere and it be accurate is desirable, is it not?

I'm hoping an EG4 response would come along and say battery cycles are not considered for warranty purposes. I'd also like this number reported to be accurate so, 10 years from now, I have a better idea of where I should be.

 

[TM48]

In other posts, EG4 has stated that a cycle is discharging and recharging the battery 80%. So, for example, if SOC is 100% and I discharge the battery to 20% and then recharge it to 100%, that's 1 cycle.

I'm hoping you are correct about the pro-rate process. However, there doesn't seem to be black and white words to that effect.

I would feel more comfortable if I knew for sure the cycles wouldn't affect me. Having said that, EG4 does state that the batteries do degrade over time when used and the metric thrown around is a degradation of 20% (leaving 80% efficiency) over 6000 cycles. Having that number shown somewhere and it be accurate is desirable, is it not?

Even EG4 knows cycles can't be depended on. I seem to remember a thread were an EG4 rep stated they don't use cycles. Like most warranties there is a time limit. I'm sure the 80% discharge definition can't be what they are using on the latest firmware. My batteries have only be below 20% once since I commissioned six months ago and my SA show a cycle count of 133 which is roughly the number of days since. There must be some magic number it must discharge in one day to qualify.

 

[EG4TechSolutionsTeam]

In other posts, EG4 has stated that a cumulative charge/discharge of 80% equals one cycle. So, for example, if SOC is 100% and I discharge the battery to 20% and then recharge it to 100%, that's 1 cycle. I could also discharge it over the course of 4 days at 20% per day and then charge it up once and would only see 1 cycle.

I'm hoping you are correct about the pro-rate process. The warranty page does note this but has a line that concerns me "Damages caused by improper maintenance or operating outside the specified operating conditions". If "specified operating conditions" doesn't include things not specifically noted in the manual, we're golden. However, how many times have we heard a manufacturer use some of the weasel words to make a claim that you "improperly" operated the device.

I would feel more comfortable if I knew for sure the cycles wouldn't affect me. Having said that, EG4 does state that the batteries do degrade over time when used and the metric thrown around is a degradation of 20% (leaving 80% efficiency) over 6000 cycles. Having that number shown somewhere and it be accurate is desirable, is it not?

I'm hoping an EG4 response would come along and say battery cycles are not considered for warranty purposes. I'd also like this number reported to be accurate so, 10 years from now, I have a better idea of where I should be.

Looking at our warranty page, there is no mention of cycle counts. What Lithium type do you have set? if you have 0, try setting it to 1 and see if that changes anything.

 

[macdaman]

Looking at our warranty page, there is no mention of cycle counts. What Lithium type do you have set? if you have 0, try setting it to 1 and see if that changes anything.

View attachment 268141

Thank you. I'm guessing the Cycle Count you track is therefore meaningless? It's not used for warranty purposes and does not seem to track properly anyway? As of this (hopefully) last post, my batteries have been in service for 19 days and my cycle count is 39/35/35.

Because I work with customer support entities all the time, I'll print this and leave it in the bottom of my battery rack. If someone in the future says anything along the lines of "your 20000 cycles indicate you've used this "outside the specified operating conditions", I can whip this out. Otherwise, I won't throw any more brain cells at it.