Anyone have any experience in Solar DIY in New York State? I see bad things on the horizon....

[TheMadNucleus]

I Live in Westchester County in New York. I have 2 engineering degrees and love DIY stuff, but New York is making it increasingly difficult for anyone with serious skills in home building/renovation. I added a 1300 square foot extension onto my last house, about 15 years ago. I had the foundation done by a contractor and the basic shell to Tyvek - no interior work. I took it from there. Electric, Plumbing, Sheetrock, Interior framing, insulation, siding, tiling etc. And I had all of my work inspected and approved by the town for final C.O. But things have changed since then. New York now prohibits home owners from doing any significant work on their homes unless they are licensed in the discipline required. I don't mind having my work inspected but I am unhappy with these turn of events.

Something even more concerning for Solar folks - The power authority in NY that sets the regulations for the electric utilities have provide the electric companies to:

1.) Charge homes using solar panels a special fee - a "Lost Revenue Fee". This is like Home De[pot charging you a fee for shopping at Lowes
2.) End specific Net metering and switch to a credit system where the electric company sets the credits earned based on their revenue - not exactly the KWH's you return to the grid.

I think the major utility, in the long run, simply will not allow folks to exit from the grid system.

Happy to hear anyone's reflections, experiences, and/or thoughts.

TMN

 

[RCinFLA]

It could be worse. They could require you to be union member in each construction discipline.

I had construction with a piece of equipment that needed to be taken to equipment room on roof of building. It took 15 months to get required permits to install equipment. I had to pay $800 to have a union elevator operator to press the button in the freight elevator.

 

[justgary]

New York now prohibits home owners from doing any significant work on their homes unless they are licensed in the discipline required. I don't mind having my work inspected but I am unhappy with these turn of events.

Have you considered firing the people who made those rules? I guess they are probably the same people who think that protectionist measures such as taxi medallions are a great idea.

Why is it important that you be licensed if your work passes inspection? I am sure that the dudes pouring concrete or nailing studs don't have licenses, only the company owners do.

 

[tonyplane]

One of the reasons I moved from SoCal to Tennessee where I had once been stationed with the 101st Airborne Div.
Before I retired, I called the Aeronautics Dept of the State of Tennessee and told them I was considering moving to Tn, buying a farm, and putting a runway on it for my airplane. I asked how people in Tn go about cutting a runway on their property to fly from and to land on. I expected a long involved "you must apply for, have inspected for, pay for, etc, etc, " The answer I received was "most people in Tennessee use a bulldozer." They explained it was my property to use as I wished, but if I were going to cut a runway near an existing airport, I should talk to them.

 

[TheMadNucleus]

Hi Justgary,

I always vote to fire them - but it's a bit hopeless ? part of a way bigger machine. Really upsetting. The reason they do this is the dollar. If they make it so you can't work on your home then inspectors save time by no repeat inspections for folks that have no clue about code or skills in the required work. Also, laws like this inflate prices for this kind of work so local businesses do better.

 

[TheMadNucleus]

OMG Tony - Hysterical story - I spent a few weeks in the smokey Mts tin TN - loved the place! So nice to see that freedom still exists in some small pockets.

 

[TheMadNucleus]

A friend of mine looked into having solar installed - I helped her check out suitability - we went onto Google Sun map site and her whole roof came out golden yellow (a rarity around here). She called a company and started the process. Oops before work started, the town put the breaks on it. 15 years ago she redid a bathroom and the town doesn't have a CO for that work - Solar cannot proceed until that is secure. She's hired a lawyer - what a mess. But I'm wondering how the hell did the town find out about a missing CO on a bathroom as a result of her contracting for Solar panels.

TMN

 

[justgary]

inspectors save time by no repeat inspections for folks that have no clue about code or skills in the required work.

That can't be the reason. The only time I have had a failed inspection is when I hired a licensed contractor to pour a concrete foundation. He had 6" footers and needed 18". I had asked him about his shallow footers and he replied, "it's just a shed."

My son is a general contractor in Nashville. He tells me that his subcontractors are constantly failing inspections. They don't understand why he gets cranky about lost time and materials. And these are the good ones....

 

[hwy17]

Net metering was a never a fair compensation scheme though, solar community needs to stop kidding themselves on that. What business or service anywhere else would you ever think could operate on a 1:1 buy/sell price? It's guaranteed to lose the operator money.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I Live in Westchester County in New York. I have 2 engineering degrees and love DIY stuff, but New York is making it increasingly difficult for anyone with serious skills in home building/renovation. I added a 1300 square foot extension onto my last house, about 15 years ago. I had the foundation done by a contractor and the basic shell to Tyvek - no interior work. I took it from there. Electric, Plumbing, Sheetrock, Interior framing, insulation, siding, tiling etc. And I had all of my work inspected and approved by the town for final C.O. But things have changed since then. New York now prohibits home owners from doing any significant work on their homes unless they are licensed in the discipline required. I don't mind having my work inspected but I am unhappy with these turn of events.

Something even more concerning for Solar folks - The power authority in NY that sets the regulations for the electric utilities have provide the electric companies to:

1.) Charge homes using solar panels a special fee - a "Lost Revenue Fee". This is like Home De[pot charging you a fee for shopping at Lowes
2.) End specific Net metering and switch to a credit system where the electric company sets the credits earned based on their revenue - not exactly the KWH's you return to the grid.

I think the major utility, in the long run, simply will not allow folks to exit from the grid system.

Happy to hear anyone's reflections, experiences, and/or thoughts.

TMN

Exactly why so many are leaving states like NY.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Net metering was a never a fair compensation scheme though, solar community needs to stop kidding themselves on that. What business or service anywhere else would you ever think could operate on a 1:1 buy/sell price? It's guaranteed to lose the operator money.

Agreed and it will fail

 

[Solar Guppy]

Agreed and it will fail

Not will, it has.

The entire reason for one to one net-meter was to incentivize a new technology so people would see a reason to install it, that was ~20 years ago and it worked when solar was $5.00 watt, not 20 cents like today.

Power Generation is a just one part of what it takes to have 24/7 grid power available, the cost of the distribution, maintenance, customer service, fleets of trucks, good paying jobs and lots of other parts to the puzzle to make the grid what it is.

Here in Florida, last year they have started minimum billing to account for all of this, this year was $30, next month it goes to $50 a month. Don't use the energy, then its a throw away cost to the end user with Solar, otherwise it adds nothing to the other 97% of costumers. I get it and always knew this was never a sustainable model.

Having a reliable grid is a must for a modern society, having people with means getting tax credits for something most can not afford is not. Since my system was about 1/4 the cost of the turn-key as a DYI, I'm fine with the new minimum charge and enjoyed building it but for everyone else, put your money into reducing your demand, where it should be ( Think high efficiency appliances, HVAC, insulation etc. )

 

[TheMadNucleus]

All great posts on this topic. But this is my prediction (actually we all need to stop fooling ourselves). I'm a huge fan of Solar but it is not a bright future - this is my prediction for the next decade:

1.) the Huge utilities will simply not allow the free self generation of electricity and their slow demise as a result.
2.) The direction of our society will assist the utilities in anti-capitalistic, and anti free-market innovations
3.) The utility companies will find a way to charge you for your Solar Systems to recoup lost costs (just as net metering is a failure for the big companies so is lost revenue)... How? Like this
4.) They will begin a program of monitoring residential solar systems (this will be authorized/mandated by governmental institutions).
5.) They will claim that this monitoring is for society's and the individual's best interest and to ensure efficiencies
6. ) They will charge a monthly fee for that Monitoring and will mandate that meters be installed that transmit your power production to the utility (they may claim that this is for your safety and to ensure the best experience for you)
7.) They will begin mandatory maintenance programs and service programs for residential installations and charge for this.
8.) They will establish a program of solar installation inspections - periodic (perhaps a few times a year) and they will charge dearly for this service.
9.) They will eliminate independent solar system contractors all together (wherein only the electric companies can install your system) or they will require that independent contracts belong to an "Oversight/Administration" organization run by the power companies (the power companies will charge dearly for this "Oversight" and this cost will be passed onto the consumer).
10.) They will establish rules for battery bank systems, such as must be recycled every 5 years and guess who is the only service to handle that, the electric companies and they will charge you dearly for that service.
11.) They may set limitations as to how much power you can generate via Solar and install limiting devices (for your safety of course) - since they already will have a meter on your solar system. This could destroy your plans for your solar system and your projected savings when you laid out 20 grand for the initial system.

I am 100% sure that they are evaluating what they are going to do as more and more consumers switch to Solar energy production and reduce their dependence on buying power from them. As hwy17 said "Stop Fooling yourselves" and I agree, but our awareness needs to be far deeper then merely net metering. You could spend tens of thousands on a Solar system to save money on electricity only to find that at your payback year (perhaps ten years from now), the electric companies find a way to charge you even more and your solar generation savings have basically gone up in smoke and your investment is toast.

Sad - but I think we need to stop fooling ourselves - IMHO the possibility of us generating our own electricity for free is a farce. Good for now - but let's see what happens in the future. Watch carefully where this country is heading, in general, and then apply those constructs to energy production. Individual rights and free market concepts is the only hope for individual energy production - but we are heading in the other direction.

TMN

 

[AndyRonLI]

So if your system only makes sense when you can sell your excess at time of generation back to the utility at that instant in time, I dont see how you can bitch about that fact that your "customer" may not want to buy what you want to sell when you want to sell it. How is it capitalistic to force a power company to buy your excess? I think all the 'sky is falling" possible scenarios will only apply to those systems that feed power back to the grid. There will always be some minimum fee to connect, and as more of us use less power, that fee will likely go up. But it would have to go way way way up to equal the cost of what my power bill used to be.

 

[stienman]

There's a complex interplay, and it's reasonable for cities/counties to make sure that homes can be safely sold - this is market liquidity, and a compelling governing interest.

That said, this can certainly be taken too far, and it depends entirely on the people elected to the positions of power.

Unfortunately, in many cases, this does mean you'll need to consider moving, or accepting the higher cost of your preferred energy source.

All that said, if the governing authority allows wells and septic systems, then they should have no problem with a completely off-grid power system, and they should have the same ability to inspect, approve/certify those installations that they have for water and sewage.

 

[zzrider]

All great posts on this topic. But this is my prediction (actually we all need to stop fooling ourselves). I'm a huge fan of Solar but it is not a bright future - this is my prediction for the next decade:

1.) the Huge utilities will simply not allow the free self generation of electricity and their slow demise as a result.
2.) The direction of our society will assist the utilities in anti-capitalistic, and anti free-market innovations
3.) The utility companies will find a way to charge you for your Solar Systems to recoup lost costs (just as net metering is a failure for the big companies so is lost revenue)... How? Like this
4.) They will begin a program of monitoring residential solar systems (this will be authorized/mandated by governmental institutions).
5.) They will claim that this monitoring is for society's and the individual's best interest and to ensure efficiencies
6. ) They will charge a monthly fee for that Monitoring and will mandate that meters be installed that transmit your power production to the utility (they may claim that this is for your safety and to ensure the best experience for you)
7.) They will begin mandatory maintenance programs and service programs for residential installations and charge for this.
8.) They will establish a program of solar installation inspections - periodic (perhaps a few times a year) and they will charge dearly for this service.
9.) They will eliminate independent solar system contractors all together (wherein only the electric companies can install your system) or they will require that independent contracts belong to an "Oversight/Administration" organization run by the power companies (the power companies will charge dearly for this "Oversight" and this cost will be passed onto the consumer).
10.) They will establish rules for battery bank systems, such as must be recycled every 5 years and guess who is the only service to handle that, the electric companies and they will charge you dearly for that service.
11.) They may set limitations as to how much power you can generate via Solar and install limiting devices (for your safety of course) - since they already will have a meter on your solar system. This could destroy your plans for your solar system and your projected savings when you laid out 20 grand for the initial system.

I am 100% sure that they are evaluating what they are going to do as more and more consumers switch to Solar energy production and reduce their dependence on buying power from them. As hwy17 said "Stop Fooling yourselves" and I agree, but our awareness needs to be far deeper then merely net metering. You could spend tens of thousands on a Solar system to save money on electricity only to find that at your payback year (perhaps ten years from now), the electric companies find a way to charge you even more and your solar generation savings have basically gone up in smoke and your investment is toast.

Sad - but I think we need to stop fooling ourselves - IMHO the possibility of us generating our own electricity for free is a farce. Good for now - but let's see what happens in the future. Watch carefully where this country is heading, in general, and then apply those constructs to energy production. Individual rights and free market concepts is the only hope for individual energy production - but we are heading in the other direction.

TMN

Man that's a depressing set of predictions, but I can totally see it going down like that in light of everything that's already happened.

The question is, when do we say "Enough!" and stop complying with this creeping tyrannical oligarchy?

 

[Brett V]

Net metering is one of the few advantages left to living in the Peoples Republic of Pennsylvania. I still enjoy a 1:1 return on my grid tie system and now that I'm supplementing my personal usage with a seperate off grid system, I am making a few bucks. The SREC market in PA has been very weak for years but is slowly improving.

 

[TheMadNucleus]

AndyRonLI,

Yeah - I agree about Net Metering - I am not making an argument for or against. Only that the utilities call all the shots on your power. That includes Solar - but they just have not gotten there yet. IMHO, the red flags are clear, and they will get there eventually, and a lot of people who got expensive solar systems today will not be happy in 10 years. Again - it's only a guess.

I do disagree that it will only apply to systems that feed back to the grid. if the public moves to solar in a big way (trends seem to indicate this) and utility companies start losing significant chunks of revenue - it will apply to everyone who has a solar system, grid tied or not.

TMN

 

[zzrider]

AndyRonLI,

Yeah - I agree about Net Metering - I am not making an argument for or against. Only that the utilities call all the shots on your power. That includes Solar - but they just have not gotten there yet. IMHO, the red flags are clear, and they will get there eventually, and a lot of people who got expensive solar systems today will not be happy in 10 years. Again - it's only a guess.

I do disagree that it will only apply to systems that feed back to the grid. if the public moves to solar in a big way (trends seem to indicate this) and utility companies start losing significant chunks of revenue - it will apply to everyone who has a solar system, grid tied or not.

TMN

This will be interesting. I've got rural acreage with no grid power on it at all. No poles, no drop. There is a line on the county road that I've got frontage on, but I have no intention of connecting to it; going to be completely off-grid (private well and septic too).

I'm prepared to get a lawyer if someone tries to tell me I *have to* connect to the grid.

 

[justgary]

I'm prepared to get a lawyer if someone tries to tell me I *have to* connect to the grid.

I think the camel already tried to stick his nose under that tent with "The Affordable Care Act." The government told people that they were required to enter into a private contract with a business (buy health insurance). That part eventually got repealed, but I'm not sure how it all played out in the courts. It is clearly an overreach.