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Battery Charging Question

Over9000

3rd Shift Ass. Manager @ 2nd-Hand Adult Toy Store
Joined
Nov 28, 2024
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464
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Michigan
Hello Folks,

I have a basic Renogy system (3 x 100W Panels) + 40A MPPT + 3kW inverter + 12V 100Ah AGM. The system is all Renogy.

I have an extra EcoWorthy 12V LFP 280Ah and am curious to know if I can put it in parallel with the Renogy 12V AGM 100Ah.

Would this cause any issues?
 
While some folks have put AGM and LFP in parallel, in general, you should not mix different chemistries unless you really know what you are doing.

Use the search function to look for mixing lead acid and lithium batteries.
 
(3 x 100W Panels) + 40A MPPT + 3kW inverter + 12V 100Ah AGM.
3000 watt inverter is too much for a 100Ah AGM.
Although you could put the Ecoworthy in parallel there would be very little advantage compared to just replacing the AGM with the Ecoworthy and reprogramming the Renogy charger for lithium.
 
3000 watt inverter is too much for a 100Ah AGM.
Although you could put the Ecoworthy in parallel there would be very little advantage compared to just replacing the AGM with the Ecoworthy and reprogramming the Renogy charger for lithium.

I think this is the way I'll go. The reason I was thinking a 3kW inverter is because I need to draw 18A on rare occasion and the 1000W inverter (@ 120V) = 8.3A, so well short. At 3kW, I should be able to support 18A. I checked and the Renogy MPPT unit can be confirmed for LFP, so I'll be sure to do that.

Thanks!
 
Hello Folks,

I have a basic Renogy system (3 x 100W Panels) + 40A MPPT + 3kW inverter + 12V 100Ah AGM. The system is all Renogy.

I have an extra EcoWorthy 12V LFP 280Ah and am curious to know if I can put it in parallel with the Renogy 12V AGM 100Ah.

Would this cause any issues?
You can, but i suggest looking at the charge settings of both batteries and understand its a compromise for 1, but there are some benefits. The charge voltage for the Eco worthy is on the low side vs what Renogy recommends for the AGM.

14.5v will be your max in bulk/absorbtion setting. (This needs to be monitored for a bit, you may need to go to 14.4v instead)
Float would be 13.5-13.8v
No temp compensation.
No equalization.

With AGM parallel to LFP you have some built in protection if your bms ever trips you wont get a system voltage spike. AGM are not current limited on discharge, where the LFP will shut down at 250A. AGM also makes your system "self start" capable in cold or after any bms event, the mppt will always see a battery connection. Basically the system can always fall back on the AGM.
I have done this successfully in a few unattended systems.
 
Only if your battery bank can supply the input DC power to produce 18 A of AC output.

How can I tell? Assume I just have the 12V 280Ah Ecosystem battery. It (link) has a maximum DC discharging current of 250A.

You can, but i suggest looking at the charge settings of both batteries and understand its a compromise for 1, but there are some benefits. The charge voltage for the Eco worthy is on the low side vs what Renogy recommends for the AGM.

14.5v will be your max in bulk/absorbtion setting. (This needs to be monitored for a bit, you may need to go to 14.4v instead)
Float would be 13.5-13.8v
No temp compensation.
No equalization.

With AGM parallel to LFP you have some built in protection if your bms ever trips you wont get a system voltage spike. AGM are not current limited on discharge, where the LFP will shut down at 250A. AGM also makes your system "self start" capable in cold or after any bms event, the mppt will always see a battery connection. Basically the system can always fall back on the AGM.
I have done this successfully in a few unattended systems.

So would you actually recommend that I use both batteries? Or just the LFP?
If I use both, how would I configure the settings?
 
If I use both, how would I configure the settings?
See:
 
Would you suggest that I put the AGM & LFP in parallel? Or series? My MPPT can handle 24V and I could purchase a 24V 3kW inverter.
 
Would you suggest that I put the AGM & LFP in parallel? Or series? My MPPT can handle 24V and I could purchase a 24V 3kW inverter.
Repeat after me.
I will not mix battery chemistry until I have a thorough understanding of what I'm doing.
I will not connect LiFePO4 packs in series; I will use the correct native voltage for my system.
 
Oh wow. Some of the replies here are kind of nuts. You can put them in parallel, but there's no practical benefit. AGM can't "absorb" a voltage spike with any significant current. Unless a BMS has sizeable inductors (and I've never seen one that does), there would be nothing in a BMS to create a voltage spike upon failure or disconnection - I'll address this later. First off, look at the discharge curve for both chemistries:

AGMvsLiFePo4Discharge.jpg
I know it says Lithium-ion, but they mean LiFePo4. I pulled this off the interwebs to save time. But as you can obviously see, at no point do the two intersect, with AGM always lower, and 99.9% of the time significantly lower. So basically, the AGM battery will be a drag on the LFP battery. In other words, the LFP battery will always be trying to charge the AGM battery. On top of that, the internal resistance of the LFP battery is likely many times lower, meaning it can supply more current with less voltage drop - making the situation shown in the chart actually much worse under load. An LFP battery has much more usable energy capacity amp hr to amp hr as a result the shape of their discharge curve.

Here's a practical demonstration - take a standard lead acid car battery at 50% SOC and measure the voltage while cranking your car. Then take an LFP battery with half the amp hour rating (also at 50% SOC) and do it again - the voltage drop during cranking will practically always be a lot less than the lead acid battery, and your car will crank faster. Now if you wire the lead acid battery in parallel with the LFP battery, the LFP battery immediately starts charging the lead acid battery because of the voltage differential - about 12.8 vs 11.6 volts, repectively. So now you're draining the LFP battery instead of saving that energy to start your car. Once you hit the key, the LFP voltage will drop a bit, but not much (remember, very low internal resistance). If it does drop low enough to get to the lead acid battery's voltage level, then the lead acid battery will stop being a drag on the LFP battery, and breifly contribute, but since the lead acid battery's internal resistance is much higher than the LFP's internal resistance, its voltage will drop too, and remain a drag on the LFP battery. The internal resistance thing is why you can take a 5 lb lithium jump starter and crank your car like gange busters. But since the jump starter may only have a 5 to 10 amps hour capacity, it won't be able to crank your car as long as the 30-40 amp hour lead acid battery, though the lead acid battery will crank slower for longer - with voltage pretty soon dropping below the minimum necessary to fire the ignition at the same time - usually around 9-10 volts.

Putting them in series is akin to putting solar panels of different capacities in series - you'll only get the combined benefit of the lowest power panel.

I think you, the OP, have two practical options: use the LFP and re purpose the AGM for something else, or install a high current transfer switch and keep the AGM on a float charger and only use the AGM as emergency back up power. Which brings up charging, since the two chemistries like to be charged differently. You can float charge an AGM battery for a long time, and is in fact good for it - it minimizes sulfation, and therefore loss of capacity. However, floating an LFP can shorten its life dramatically; and LFP batteries live longest keeping the charge level at 80% or so.

To the guy doing this for "unattended" systems - you're not doing this correctly. Not only are you not doing anything to absorb "spikes" - which are likely not there, or if you're using some sort of esoteric BMS I'm not familiar with (some BMSs do have small inductors for cell balancing, but those would be too small to be significant - most BMSs use capacitive balancing (more expensive, but more efficient) or resistive (cheaper, typically more reliable, but waste energy, but I digress...)) Anyway, if you're using a weird BMS that does have inductor generated spikes upon failure (inductors are the only way to boost DC voltage, btw, and how boost converters work), be aware that such spikes are ALWAYS opposite polarity and are easily handled by putting a diode across the terminals to shunt such a spike - that's why most automotive relays have diodes built into them - a relay coil is basically an inductor after all, and when power is removed from the coil, the magnetic field in the core collapses and that energy (inductors store energy magnetically) is induced back into the coil in the opposite polarity. I would suggest a superfast diode for this purpose. For the low temp situation, you should be using a temperature controlled transfer switch or contactor to switch between the two battery types for all the reasons stated above.
 
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I think you, the OP, have two practical options: use the LFP and re purpose the AGM for something else, or install a high current transfer switch and keep the AGM on a float charger and only use the AGM as emergency back up power.
Repurposing is an easy choice, but please tell me more about this high current transfer switch option. If there's a way to have something act as an emergency reserve using the AGM, that would be awesome.
 
If you wanna go low buck, use a switch like this:

And use a float charger like this one for the AGM:

Be sure to unplug, or at least disconnect, the float charger before switching over to the AGM batt. A word of warning - high current switches like the one above work fine for lower voltages (like 12 volts, or 24 volts, but in my opinion, that's pushing it). But switching them under a heavy load (100 or more amps) risks creating a plasma arc as you approach 30 volts. And nothing extinguishes a plasma arc short of sand or distance. Think arc welder. But 12 volts simply isn't enough to generate a plasma arc.

I tried stick welding with an LTO pack I built for an electric supercharger project - you'll get the idea. And towards the end of the video, I show an EV contactor that you could use if you want to automate the whole thing, but that gets more complicated and expensive - you'll need contactors with economizers (the little box on the side of the contactor) and either a microcontroller (which I don't suggest for circuitry like this - it can suffer from interference from the high power stuff) or a custom, albeit a relatively not too complex solution using discreet mosfets or transistors:


Just for fun, here's what 600+ amps at 60+ volts (it might have been 72 volts - I don't remember, this was a while ago) does to a very expensive piece of billet aluminum with a 6" plasma arc sawing its way through it:

 
Oh wow. Some of the replies here are kind of nuts. You can put them in parallel, but there's no practical benefit. AGM can't "absorb" a voltage spike with any significant current.
It does for the application. The spike comes from the MPPT being unloaded if BMS disconnects.
Unless a BMS has sizeable inductors (and I've never seen one that does), there would be nothing in a BMS to create a voltage spike upon failure or disconnection
The BMS doesn't create the spike, but it creates the scenario. The MPPT suddenly being unloaded during charging does create a spike. In some cases, it causes the inverter to register an overvoltage alarm and/or shutdown. Other cases with cheap MPPT's, this can kill the charge controller. Obviously a BMS disconnect doesn't happen unless something is wrong, but it does happen. Then you have an inverter faulted and an MPPT that doesn't see a battery anymore. with an unattended system, it would stay off indefinitely until someone comes along and puts a power supply to the battery.
So basically, the AGM battery will be a drag on the LFP battery. In other words, the LFP battery will always be trying to charge the AGM battery.
The AGM will spend most of its life fully charged, very little current will be absorbed by the AGM when full. Less than 0.5A in most cases.
On top of that, the internal resistance of the LFP battery is likely many times lower, meaning it can supply more current with less voltage drop - making the situation shown in the chart actually much worse under load. An LFP battery has much more usable energy capacity amp hr to amp hr as a result the shape of their discharge curve.
Yes, the LFP will do all the work, that is the whole point.
Here's a practical demonstration - take a standard lead acid car battery at 50% SOC and measure the voltage while cranking your car. Then take an LFP battery with half the amp hour rating (also at 50% SOC) and do it again - the voltage drop during cranking will practically always be a lot less than the lead acid battery, and your car will crank faster. Now if you wire the lead acid battery in parallel with the LFP battery, the LFP battery immediately starts charging the lead acid battery because of the voltage differential - about 12.8 vs 11.6 volts, repectively. So now you're draining the LFP battery instead of saving that energy to start your car. Once you hit the key, the LFP voltage will drop a bit, but not much (remember, very low internal resistance). If it does drop low enough to get to the lead acid battery's voltage level, then the lead acid battery will stop being a drag on the LFP battery, and breifly contribute, but since the lead acid battery's internal resistance is much higher than the LFP's internal resistance, its voltage will drop too, and remain a drag on the LFP battery. The internal resistance thing is why you can take a 5 lb lithium jump starter and crank your car like gange busters. But since the jump starter may only have a 5 to 10 amps hour capacity, it won't be able to crank your car as long as the 30-40 amp hour lead acid battery, though the lead acid battery will crank slower for longer - with voltage pretty soon dropping below the minimum necessary to fire the ignition at the same time - usually around 9-10 volts.
If bus voltage is at 12.8v, the AGM is not anywhere near 50%. You will rarely get into a scenario where the AGM is discharged. Its simply along for the ride and available if needed. Pretend its not there for daily cycles.
Putting them in series is akin to putting solar panels of different capacities in series
Nobody said put them in series. Agreed that's a bad idea.
For the low temp situation, you should be using a temperature controlled transfer switch or contactor to switch between the two battery types for all the reasons stated above.
The point is if the LFP reaches low temp protection the bus voltage doesn't go away, the system stays operational.

Again, this is really only beneficial for unattended systems where nobody is around to restart anything and you want to utilize the cheap capacity that LFP has to offer. Unattended LFP is risky. AGM gives you a buffer of sorts.
 
My system is 100% unattended. 60 miles away. Regularly below freezing and unheated. Please help me figure this out!
 
My system is 100% unattended. 60 miles away. Regularly below freezing and unheated. Please help me figure this out!
That's the first time you've mentioned the "Regularly below freezing and unheated" constraint. Stick with lead-acid.

Also, for more details see:
 

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