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Battleborn vs Alibaba?

MarinerBlue

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Sep 24, 2020
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Hello everyone,

Please forgive me if this is a newbie question, but... I'm new to this whole idea of repowering my sailboat with electric. I so far saw most people on youtube using Battleborn batteries. But a 100ah 12V LiFePO4 battery from Battleborn costs about $1000, while 280ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries on Alibaba cost about 1/10 of that.

Could someone help educate me as to why there is this huge price difference? Can I just hook up 4 of these alibaba batteries in serial and call it a 12v battery, now with 1120ah?

Battleborn battery link: https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/
Alibaba link: 280ah LiFePO4

Thanks.
 
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Couple of things.

The RAW cells in a serial configuration (4s. 3.2Vx4) will multiply the voltage to the same ~12V system but does not multiply the AH. You still have 280AH of storage. You also need to purchase a BMS, a battery box, cabling, etc to create a full battery.

The battleborn is a fully enclosed system with quality components backed by a manufacturer warranty and a proven history of effectiveness.

With that said, yes -- for approximately 1/2 the price of a BB, you can purchase RAW cells and build your own pack. That is exactly what many folks on here have done. On the other hand, many people do not find joy in that and want to purchase a turnkey solution. Thankfully we have options!
 
Being in a sailboat personally I'd want to make sure raw cells were built into a secure structure that limited any movement. You'll need a bms on those raw cells too not just strong them together.
 
My setup is half of what you proposed. I'm at 560 Ah in a 12v system. To get the equivalent Ah out of Battleborn batteries would be around $5,000. I spent just under $1,000 for my batteries and $240 for the two BMS devices. 20% of the price of Battleborn for similar Ah. I couldn't pass that up.

Another advantage to the DIY battery option is that my setup takes less space and less weight than five Battleborn batteries would.
 
First off, its not reasonable to compare raw cells costs to an assembled, tested, and warrantied battery. You need to address how much labor and the additional components will cost on the DIY route. Its not small, especially labor to test, and build an enclosure. This means BMS, fusing, setting sane BMS limits, etc. Lots of pitfalls which require close attention to deteail. Remember the BB and similar drop ins are sealed as well, which can be difficult to obtain DIY (at least in a small package).

Lion Batteries go on sale through costco a few times a year for 10-20% off. These use prismatic cells, and are more compact than BB.
 
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The cost of a benchtop power supply unit to do the initial top balancing needs to be taken into account also. I'll use the PSU for other things, but it was something that I had to buy. Bus bars, bolts, compression frame, etc.

But I'm still way ahead of what the equivalent Ah Battleborn would cost.
 
Here are the components you need at the minimum to build a fully useable 12V 280AH LifePo4 Battery similar to the BattleBorn:

1. (4) 280Ah Cells - Ask for Sea Shipping which will be a $100 cheaper than the default Shipping method:
2. BMS + Bluetooth Module:
3. Group 27 Battery Box:
4. Battery Terminals:
5. Bus Bars: The seller in #1 above usually just includes them for free
6. Other Wires, Tape, Odds n Ends
7. Some DIY curiosity, knowledge, Electrical know-how, ability

This will cost you between $500-$600 after it's all said and done for a 12V 280AH Battery. Similar setup on BattleBorn will be about ~$3000.

Tutorial:
 
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If the money is nothing to you then get BB. If you have a budget and the increased capacity of binging your own will improve your experience then build your own!
 
That BMS above is 120A max version, a far cry from the 200A BB or similar drop ins.

I think 600$ is pretty optimistic, 700-750$ is more reasonable, as a crimper, power supply, cable, terminals, fuse/breaker, etc.

If the money is nothing to you then get BB.

There are better deals on drop ins than BB. But playing devils advocate, "If time is nothing to you, then build your own". It will take many hours to spec, order, balance, assemble, and test a battery pack. For many (most?) its not worth the labor.
 
That BMS above is 120A max version, a far cry from the 200A BB or similar drop ins.

I think 600$ is pretty optimistic, 700-750$ is more reasonable, as a crimper, power supply, cable, terminals, fuse/breaker, etc.



There are better deals on drop ins than BB. But playing devils advocate, "If time is nothing to you, then build your own". It will take many hours to spec, order, balance, assemble, and test a battery pack. For many (most?) its not worth the labor.

If we're comparing DIY to off-the-shelf then you can't include the cable and fuse/breaker in the DIY cost since you would need that for either method. The crimper might also be needed for either method unless you're buying fabricated cables.

We're arguing semantics to some extent. But it certainly helps for a newbie to be aware of the cost of all the tools and supplies that go into a project that involves LiFePO4 batteries and solar components. I missed a few tools and supplies on my initial order and had to scramble to find the right stuff quickly once I realized what I needed.
 
Here are the components you need at the minimum to build a fully useable 12V 280AH LifePo4 Battery similar to the BattleBorn:

1. (4) 280Ah Cells - Ask for Sea Shipping which will be a $100 cheaper than the default Shipping method:
2. BMS + Bluetooth Module:
3. Group 27 Battery Box:
4. Battery Terminals:
5. Bus Bars: The seller in #1 above usually just includes them for free
6. Other Wires, Tape, Odds n Ends
7. Some DIY curiosity, knowledge, Electrical know-how, ability

This will cost you between $500-$600 after it's all said and done for a 12V 280AH Battery. Similar setup on BattleBorn will be about ~$3000.

Tutorial:


Wow, this really is "advanced arts and krafts" as the guy in the video put it! If I'm going for a 48V system, is it better to make one big battery or split it up into two 24V batteries? Also, is there a battery case that people recommend for marine use (sometimes damp, but not flodded area)?
 
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Hello everyone,

Please forgive me if this is a newbie question, but... I'm new to this whole idea of repowering my sailboat with electric. I so far saw most people on youtube using Battleborn batteries. But a 100ah 12V LiFePO4 battery from Battleborn costs about $1000, while 280ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries on Alibaba cost about 1/10 of that.

Could someone help educate me as to why there is this huge price difference? Can I just hook up 4 of these alibaba batteries in serial and call it a 12v battery, now with 1120ah?

Battleborn battery link: https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/
Alibaba link: 280ah LiFePO4

Thanks.

In a nutshell:

Battleborn: Paying to minimize the risk, responsibility, learning curve, and work
DIY Alibaba: Taking on much more risk and responsibility in exchange for a much cheaper price.

There are middleground options as well. Most notable (1) Buying grade A matched cells through trusted sellers (2) Buying one of the slightly cheaper drop-in lithium batteries.
 
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I considered battleborn and actually have two 12v100ah from them operating. Works great. Plug and play, simple.

They are certainly expensive though, so now I’m more using DIY lifepo4 with overkillsolar cells and bms. Cheaper, more dense, better thermal properties, more labor, more uncertainty. It’s more cost effective enough that I have decided to not get more battleborn batteries for now.

BB 12V100Ah : usd ~1000
frey 12V100Ah : usd ~750
 
Wow, this really is "advanced arts and krafts" as the guy in the video put it! If I'm going for a 48V system, is it better to make one big battery or split it up into two 24V batteries? Also, is there a battery case that people recommend for marine use (sometimes damp, but not flodded area)?
Personally I'd build a 48V battery if DIY was on the cards, but don't listen to just what I say take note of what everyone else does too.

My reasoning is that all the cells are under the control of a single BMS and can be coordinated by that one BMS. If you have two batteries in series you now have two BMSes doing their own individual thing. If one battery is a bit weaker or becomes more discharged, or .... , the BMS in it has no way to convey its state to the other BMS. All it can do is cut off and when that happens your system stops. It might cut off on low voltage during discharge, or on high voltage during charging. When you charge different impedance batteries the voltage across one is higher than the other. If it goes high enough, *click*.

Lithium is a hell of a lot better in this respect than lead acid but even quality manufacturer's like Battleborn give the advice that the batteries should be taken out of series and bought to full charge separately once a year (? have to load that up again).
 
drop-ins in series need to be balanced with a separate charger for each battery. The only exception is the ones which have battery to battery balance leads, which some of the more advanced (not quite drop ins) are.

There are balancers which support voltages up to 20V (per "cell"). These are often used on lead acid 6V-12V batteries in series, and can be used with series drop-ins in some cases.
 
Wow, this really is "advanced arts and krafts" as the guy in the video put it! If I'm going for a 48V system, is it better to make one big battery or split it up into two 24V batteries? Also, is there a battery case that people recommend for marine use (sometimes damp, but not flodded area)?
I will say you need to educate yourself much more. understand series and parallel.. how it affects volt and amps... you're 8 amp home fridge uses 100amps from your 12 v battery or 25 amps off your 48v battery.
 
One aspect that has not being discussed is the energy density - in my application I have very limited space for LiFePo4 battery - for the space I can place 210-280ah battery, while only 100ah Battleborn. This was deal breaker for me for Battleborn.

I have watched Will's video he cut open a BB battery, very high quality inside (Funny the BMS was actually made in China). they used many smaller cylinder cells. I don't know the engineering reason for that, but one benefit is that if a couple of cells do go bad, they can still achieve 90% capacity, which is fairly important to them as they offer 10-year warrantee.

In my opinion the max discharge current isn't really the issue, you can always put 2 groups (4cell+bms) x 2 in Parallel.
 
One aspect that has not being discussed is the energy density - in my application I have very limited space for LiFePo4 battery - for the space I can place 210-280ah battery, while only 100ah Battleborn. This was deal breaker for me for Battleborn.

I have watched Will's video he cut open a BB battery, very high quality inside (Funny the BMS was actually made in China). they used many smaller cylinder cells. I don't know the engineering reason for that, but one benefit is that if a couple of cells do go bad, they can still achieve 90% capacity, which is fairly important to them as they offer 10-year warrantee.

In my opinion the max discharge current isn't really the issue, you can always put 2 groups (4cell+bms) x 2 in Parallel.
I suspect that is just the cell they had available when they designed that battery. It also allows them to be installed in any orientation. I suspect they spent a lot of money designing their welding process and equipment where as anything designed today most likely just uses screws and bus bars.
 
One aspect that has not being discussed is the energy density - in my application I have very limited space for LiFePo4 battery - for the space I can place 210-280ah battery, while only 100ah Battleborn. This was deal breaker for me for Battleborn.
I agree. Energy Density--which can further be broken down into 'volumetric energy density' (i.e. how many units of energy per liter) and 'gravimetric energy density' (i.e. how many units of energy per KG)--is certainly an important factor in many situations. Its something I have been thinking about more lately. I suspect for most of us volumetric energy density is more of a concern than gravimetric, but both are important in some contexts (and neither are important in other contexts).

A related factor is the ability to customize a DIY battery pack to the space you have available whereas a drop-in usually comes in only one form-factor, maybe two or three at most.

In practice I think its quite difficult and sometimes misleading to compare volumetric energy density between drop-ins and raw cells difficult (or even between different types of raw cells). Its a hard comparison to accurately make before you have actually constructed or at least designed your pack. Because raw cells on their own (particularly large form factor aluminum cells) are not equivalent to a battery. BMS + whatever external protection/compression/casing you use should be factored in. If you design it reasonably well you can avoid adding too much extra volume (a simple aluminum plate and threaded rod enclosure could add almost no volume beyond the BMS, but from what I've seen a lot of the homebrew DIY enclosures or commodity battery boxes do add a decent bit of bulk to the finished product, and depending on the application more space does need to be devoted to protecting the cells.

Rereading my comment, I'm worried it may come across as disagreeing, which is not my intent. I certainly agree, if volumetric density is the primary consideration a smartly designed pack made of aluminum cased cells is a sensible route to take.

Here is an interesting (to me) comparison of sizes of various raw cells (in 4s packs) compared to a battleborn.

Screenshot_2020-11-25 BattleBorn 100Ah vs CALB SE200 vs CATL 202 Ah vs Lishen 272Ah vs CALB.png

From left to right: (00) Coke Can for scale (0) Wine Bottle for scale (1) EVE 105Ah (dark red), (2) Frey/Fortune 100Ah (White/Grey), (3) CALB CA 100Ah (Turquoise), (4) Lishen 272Ah (Yellow), (5) CATL 202Ah (Blue), (6) CALB SE 200Ah (Green), (7) Battleborn 100Ah (Red)

All measurements were taken from datasheets, and are not 100% comparable as some are just rectangular cell dimensions, some include the height of the terminal, and some include the height of the stud. Ideally all would be the total height, but this should give a ballpark at least. As you noted the Battleborn does not compare favorably at all in terms of energy per liter.
 
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One thing that I always see is people talk about building their own systems and all that you have to go buy a hydraulic crimper and that adds to the cost. Personally I use battery cables USA website for almost all of my cables. Why? Because you get to buy The wire by the inch. They crimp on the end of your choice for a few dollars more. They ship your entire order for only a few dollars shipping fee. And they ship them in a few days. Yes I have a crimper. But I'm not going to buy many feet of different size cable to cut off what I need when I need it. Maybe if I start doing this all the time or something but for me I get to pick the quality of the wire that they sell. I get to tell them how many inches long I want each wire to be. I get to tell them the lugs. And I believe from everything I see they deliver me a quality product cheaper than I could do it myself

Your mileage may vary.

I'll stick my hand in The hornet's nest of warranties. Hopefully battleborn batteries is investing and saving and plenty of money so that they will be around in 10 years or so when the warranties might be used and I say might. I've known of too many people that bought something based on the fact that it had any tremendous warranty to find out that the company went bankrupt. Hopefully you guys buying battleborn batteries didn't invest all of your money in the cryptocurrency companies that are going bankrupt after only a few years lol sorry that's my dig at crypto ?
 
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