Nobody can answer this question, if you are looking for brands you may need to pay around $4000 for similar capacity. I know it is around for a few years and some websites mentioned that they are good battries
best ever Lifepo4 price today and good inverter deal.
- Thread starter Faby_AZ
- Start date
Not saying the batteries you ordered will not be good. But would you consider the 280amp EVE batteries to be a brand?
You do know one can get 8 cells, measured tested and shipped for around $900.00. 16 for around $1700.00. And 8 or 16 CALB 100amp batteries around the same price respectively. I don't know where you are getting $4000.00 from for around 4320kwh unless ordering from a USA retailer?
No doubt you got a great deal on the LitoKala's and the inverter. Hopefully the cells will balance and the advertised capacity is what you will get. Your tests will be very valuable to others on the forum and I am looking forward to your results. Wish you the best and hoping for the best too...
How is the product as per you?
I understand your idea and of course 280ah is better choice but I am a bigginer and spending that much of money is risky there was two choices for me first build 24v system with higher battery capacity but theproblem would be if I want to upgraid I will have to change inverter, batteries , bms, breakers while now if I want to upgraid when I fell I know exactly what I am doing, I will sell my old battries as used and put the 280ah in their place.Not saying the batteries you ordered will not be good. But would you consider the 280amp EVE batteries to be a brand?
You do know one can get 8 cells, measured tested and shipped for around $900.00. 16 for around $1700.00. And 8 or 16 CALB 100amp batteries around the same price respectively. I don't know where you are getting $4000.00 from for around 4320kwh unless ordering from a USA retailer?
No doubt you got a great deal on the LitoKala's and the inverter. Hopefully the cells will balance and the advertised capacity is what you will get. Your tests will be very valuable to others on the forum and I am looking forward to your results. Wish you the best and hoping for the best too...
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
Ohh My, I just caught up on this thread. OUCH !
1) That inverter posted, is HIGH Frequency and more or less a "Car Inverter" not intended for heavy or continual use over time. It's a TOSS AWAY ! Sorry but it is what it is, a poor product that is barely capable per specs. There are VERY Significant differences between High Frequency & Low Frequency inverters and it's not just the weight of the things. Do NOT expect similar performance to a Low Frequency Inverter.
REF: https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/k...rsion-methods-explained-high-frequency-vs-low
2) Regarding the LFP Cells. There are an awful lot of good deals out there right now thanks to overproduction and dampened sales (partially thanks to Covid) Sticking to a Name Brand like CALB, Fortune, SinoPoly etc is fine if you wish to pay a premium because of the "branding". A great many of us here are purchasing & using a wide variety of cells from Known Good Vendors with excellent results while being Wallet Friendly (very important to keep an eagle eye on the wallet with this stuff). Now if you want to be impatient and get local product / local-regional delivery, then the cost factor is up to yourself to figure out what is reasonable.
3) A BMS is an important part of a battery pack, it's not a trivial bit of something as it is protecting the Investment in the most expensive part of a solar system. There are many options & capabilities & functions for BMS' and that can in itself be overwhelming, the combo that works best is determined by your actual usage plan and on where you want to take your system. There are features to consider as well... if you live in a Hot Arid region that never freezes, you don't need to worry about Cold Temp Cutoff but if you live in the North, then you gotta have it.
My suggestion, especially as your New & obviously Keen, is to slow down, figure out what you Need, then what you "Want" and ultimately where you'd like to take your Solar Project and make a PLAN. Failure to Plan is Planning for Failure (and it is always costly). The last thing you want to do is to "Yard Sale" a bunch of used stuff that is a net loss in $$$. There is a lot involved and the BOS (Balance of System) such as breakers, fuses & wiring also typically adds up to about 25% of the system cost, and with a lot of that, you can't make mistakes for obvious reasons.
Hope it Helps, Good Luck
Steve
1) That inverter posted, is HIGH Frequency and more or less a "Car Inverter" not intended for heavy or continual use over time. It's a TOSS AWAY ! Sorry but it is what it is, a poor product that is barely capable per specs. There are VERY Significant differences between High Frequency & Low Frequency inverters and it's not just the weight of the things. Do NOT expect similar performance to a Low Frequency Inverter.
REF: https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/k...rsion-methods-explained-high-frequency-vs-low
2) Regarding the LFP Cells. There are an awful lot of good deals out there right now thanks to overproduction and dampened sales (partially thanks to Covid) Sticking to a Name Brand like CALB, Fortune, SinoPoly etc is fine if you wish to pay a premium because of the "branding". A great many of us here are purchasing & using a wide variety of cells from Known Good Vendors with excellent results while being Wallet Friendly (very important to keep an eagle eye on the wallet with this stuff). Now if you want to be impatient and get local product / local-regional delivery, then the cost factor is up to yourself to figure out what is reasonable.
3) A BMS is an important part of a battery pack, it's not a trivial bit of something as it is protecting the Investment in the most expensive part of a solar system. There are many options & capabilities & functions for BMS' and that can in itself be overwhelming, the combo that works best is determined by your actual usage plan and on where you want to take your system. There are features to consider as well... if you live in a Hot Arid region that never freezes, you don't need to worry about Cold Temp Cutoff but if you live in the North, then you gotta have it.
My suggestion, especially as your New & obviously Keen, is to slow down, figure out what you Need, then what you "Want" and ultimately where you'd like to take your Solar Project and make a PLAN. Failure to Plan is Planning for Failure (and it is always costly). The last thing you want to do is to "Yard Sale" a bunch of used stuff that is a net loss in $$$. There is a lot involved and the BOS (Balance of System) such as breakers, fuses & wiring also typically adds up to about 25% of the system cost, and with a lot of that, you can't make mistakes for obvious reasons.
Hope it Helps, Good Luck
Steve
Actually l am new to solar but ot new to electricity, I am electronic and communication Engineer and studied alot about electricity. I just want to mention about the inverter frequency, in the US we use 60Hz, so there is nothing called higher or lower, if it is 60Hz buy it if it is not like 50Hz don't.
Delmar
Solar Addict
The Reliable inverter works (or at least tested) as intended, and I hope to never use it. It backfeeds my house panel and has the neutral bonded.
My inverter is only for grid-down, and haven't needed it since Hurricane Ike in 2008 that knocked out power for 10 days. Never lost power with Hurricane Harvey in 2017. If I were using the system daily I would have no problem spending double+ for a
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
High Low Frequency has NOTHING to do with the electrical grid frequency. High Frequency MosFET Based Inverter is not anything like a Low Frequency Transformer Coil based Inverter. You should have read the article prior to responding.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
Sorry, I answered before reading the article. Anyway these days there are no standards, the US branded prices are skyrocket. I personally bought mine because the price and company name.
By the way I live in phoenix and we don't have any kind of natural disaster. I am building this system in my back yard cabin and I will use it to run one mini split in home and also to heat and cool 80 sf green house in the garden. In spring and fall I will not use the system.
I still keep looking at batteries and keep coming back to these for the price it just looks too good even thought they are bigger then I need £410 delivered for 12 x 3.2v 90AH.
I believe lithium doesn't need to be charged 100% often like lead acid but would it damage the batteries if I only ran them down to say 12.9v (around 60% DOD) at sun down, then had my inverter stay in standby until the batteries are back up to something like 13.1v (around 30% DOD) if there is plenty of sun I could allow the charge to keep going up to 13.5v (around 10% DOD) this would mean I would only need to charge around 30Ah of usable in the morning before my inverter would kick in again.
Then when I add more PV I can then expand the numbers to get more use out of the batteries.
TLDR - Could it damage the batteries if you use them in only a small window of charge 30>60% DOD
Actually if I don't need to charge lithium like lead acid do I just let it pull down to 80% DOD on an evening and let the inverter start straight way in the morning without putting any charge in.
I believe lithium doesn't need to be charged 100% often like lead acid but would it damage the batteries if I only ran them down to say 12.9v (around 60% DOD) at sun down, then had my inverter stay in standby until the batteries are back up to something like 13.1v (around 30% DOD) if there is plenty of sun I could allow the charge to keep going up to 13.5v (around 10% DOD) this would mean I would only need to charge around 30Ah of usable in the morning before my inverter would kick in again.
Then when I add more PV I can then expand the numbers to get more use out of the batteries.
TLDR - Could it damage the batteries if you use them in only a small window of charge 30>60% DOD
Actually if I don't need to charge lithium like lead acid do I just let it pull down to 80% DOD on an evening and let the inverter start straight way in the morning without putting any charge in.
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Prefersdirt
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2019
- Messages
- 377
This. I am very glad my batteries are taking a while to get here as I am forced to slow down and study for my system. I do wish I had made some other purchases instead of what I did buy, but the budget has already been stretched. And what I have will do what it is intended to do.
The misc stuff (wire, breakers, etc) ARE adding up! Cry once.
I know what you want to do and why you want to do it. That wasn't my point. My point was one can get branded cells that add up to the same watt hours you ordered for much less than $4000.00.
You didn't know the difference between a HF and LF inverter. By coming to this forum and posting you you found out the difference and are getting lessons and advice for free. We all have....
ToadHarbor
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2020
- Messages
- 21
Some advice. Plan to make your first system a smallish 2Kwatt inverter based 12VDC system with something like 100AH batteries. That way you can make it semi-portable and build what you really want a 5KW inverter 48VDc system with 840Ah of batteries.
There is a lot of debate about this. Storing LifePo4 batteries at a high state of charge is not good as they will lose capacity over time. Staying within the knees of charge and discharge seems the best way to go and that is 10 to 20% for the low and 80 to 90% for the high. It all depends on how much power you need to get from the battery.
Keeping the batteries in a small window will increase the lifetime of the battery. When you first receive the cells you will want to parallel top balance them to the full voltage of 3.65 volts. Then hook them up in series and connect the BMS. Keep an eye on the cell voltages and if the voltages of the individual cells are matched after a few charge/discharge cycles then you are good to go. The only thing to remember is a passive BMS balances the cells at the upper SOC. An active BMS will balance the cells through the whole cycle.
There is a lot to learn and if you search the forum you will find everything you need to know to properly build a battery.
I have no experience with lifepo4 batteries but for me I will set the range charge and discharge between 30%-95%. Most often I will not discharge them to that level but that is only to protect them if discharge happen ffg or any reason.
Hhh I know the different but I did not read what is in that lik. Usually if somebody replied to me or ask I read everything but if he copied tons of information with links to other sites he should not expect that I will read everythi g he copied.I know what you want to do and why you want to do it. That wasn't my point. My point was one can get branded cells that add up to the same watt hours you ordered for much less than $4000.00.
You didn't know the difference between a HF and LF inverter. By coming to this forum and posting you you found out the difference and are getting lessons and advice for free. We all have....
For 12v system you have to stay below 1000w and that does not worth the effort. For example 1.8KW in 12v battery system means 150 Amp, that would be a very expensive system and there will be high risk of fire if any cable is not so thick or not attached very well, in my oppnion 48v is the safest and you will not get any issues with cables, Charge controller....etc.Some advice. Plan to make your first system a smallish 2Kwatt inverter based 12VDC system with something like 100AH batteries. Tyhat way you can make it semi-portable and build what you really want a 5KW inverter 48VDc system with 840Ah of batteries.
I am an EE also, that doesn't mean I understood the concerns initially either.
Low Frequence vs High Frequency inverters refers to if the inverter uses a 60 HZ power transformer or not. What it really is, is a short hand way of distinguishing between products designed to meet a price point and products designed to meet requirements.
Inexpensive inverters use high frequency magnetics to boost the battery voltage to 200VDC then use PWM to generate the AC output. Some of these use bridged outputs to drive both the hot and the neutral output meaning you can't ground the neutral. Some really cheap models are not even galvanically isolated.
Higher quality inverters (called low frequency) in RV and solar power circle use PWM to convert battery voltage into low voltage AC then use a power transformer to step this up to line voltage (120 VAC). A high power transformer can cost as much as some cheap (HF) inverters.
Here is an example of what the insides of a high quality 2000 VA inverter looks like. That torroidal transformer alone costs $300 (I priced it).
Going to just use the labels HF and LF as shorthand from here on.
HF inverters:
These are normally made as cheaply as possible with little or no design margins. This is how a 3000W inverter can be sold for a couple of hundred dollars.
They use marginally spec'd components (voltage and current ratings) on caps and FETs and as a result often fail prematurely. In addition they rarely meet power putput specs and and have limited surge current capability. Surge capability is required to start inductive loads like motors or microwave ovens.
If you divide a HF inverter rated power by 3 and avoid powering "difficult" loads then they can work, at least until they fail unexpectedly.
One other issue with most HF inverters is a lack of configurability. Many are designed to be used with lead acid batteries and will over-discharge lithium batteries. Even the ones with a "lithium" setting will discharge a battery lower than is conducive to a long battery life.
LF inverters.
These are made by higher quality suppliers typically located in 1st world countries that have to worry about things like 3rd party safety standards and lawsuits. These products are generally well designed with adequate margins and conservatively spec'd components. They also meet specs and can deliver 200% surge current for minutes, unlike the milliseconds that HF inverters are able to do.
LF inverters often have programmable operation that let you protect the most expensive part of the system, your batteries. As a result they cost 2 or 3 as much as the cheap HF inverters. They will also work and not let you down when you least expect it.
Here is a clue. If a 2KW to 3KW inverter costs less than $600 to $700 then it is highly unlikely to be unsatisfactory.
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Delmar
Solar Addict
Here is a size comparison of low-frequency vs high-frequency inverters.
The UPS is a low-frequency 2700W inverter and in the bottom right are two massive 48V-120V transformers. The silver box is battery storage. Is a 90+ pound beast even without batteries. Benefit of the LF inverter: durability and surge capacity. Also a nominally cleaner sine wave output.
On top is an equivalent high-frequency 2500W inverter. About the same volume as the UPS battery box. Benefit of the HF inverter: low cost, low weight and low power losses. Way more efficient with minimal loading.
The UPS is a low-frequency 2700W inverter and in the bottom right are two massive 48V-120V transformers. The silver box is battery storage. Is a 90+ pound beast even without batteries. Benefit of the LF inverter: durability and surge capacity. Also a nominally cleaner sine wave output.
On top is an equivalent high-frequency 2500W inverter. About the same volume as the UPS battery box. Benefit of the HF inverter: low cost, low weight and low power losses. Way more efficient with minimal loading.
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
TWO Low Frequency Inverters with Covers OFF
Product Links are in the title of photos.
YIYEN APC-3024-LF (120VAC) internals Approx $650 USD + S&H&Duties/Taxes.
SAMLEX EVO-4024 Internals Approx: $1800 - $2100 USD
Product Links are in the title of photos.
YIYEN APC-3024-LF (120VAC) internals Approx $650 USD + S&H&Duties/Taxes.
SAMLEX EVO-4024 Internals Approx: $1800 - $2100 USD
