Beware @Michael B Caro

[Hedges]

 

[houseofancients]

can we get back on topic ?

 

[A.Justice]

Not always! The world of electronic payments has no guarantees.

That happens to Verizon customers on the regular. There was a famous one when they charged a woman like $1,500 or something, and refused to give it back. I remember it was in the news because she couldn't afford her rent.

I used to use Verizon as well because I didn't have a choice. My bill went from $80 a month for unlimited gigabit, to over $300 a month, for under 100mbs. When I called them, they didn't even give me an excuse and just fixed it, because they knew they got caught. This happened to handful of times, they would just stick random charges on my bill, and remove them when I called. Then they sent some idiot out to our house too "upgrade our ethernet cable", which slowed the speeds down again, and somehow upped the price. I had put in our ethernet cable, and it was all Cat6e, when he left I had 5E out of the modem.

I canceled the service and they continued to charge me $100 a month, even after I called them and they told me I wouldn't be charged anymore, they then continued to charge me $40 a month after that until I put a stop payment on Verizon with my CC company. I tried to dispute the payments, and they told me that Verizon had disputed them back. They ended up sending me my extra payments in the form of gift cards, which of course I never received. Of course Verizon stretched this process out way past my dispute window, so I'll never see that money again.

I'm completely unapologetic about this Verizon rant, FU*K THAT COMPANY, use anybody else if possible.

Thanks for letting me share!

Edit: I have had Comcast since then, and they charge me exactly what I agreed to, and I get the speeds that I pay for. So far, I'd recommend Comcast.

 

[Dmarkwa]

I posted this elsewhere in the forum. I’ll post it here too:

Months ago, I ordered cells from M. Caro. About 45 days ago I finally received them. Our cabin SLA cells were pretty much dead. Generator failed so I was hosed. Brought the Westinghouse 2200 from second home and limped by. We built the battery, added the Overkill BMS and topped the cells off. The battery is working well. We are running it between 20% and 80% every day. I need 8 more cells to make a second bank for our 24 volt system So we don't go day to day. But even with winter sun, we seem to get by. 8000KW genset has been repaired and is running again.

Perspective: Before leaving my previous business (as owner) one division of our company had a joint venture in a factory in China. Before I left, we had imported from China for 12 years. I had close friends in Shanghai who lived there full time and represented various US companies as they bought product built in china. Even with their wisdom and help, there was a steep learning curve. Until we developed a relationship with the leadership of the then 5th Largest company in China, it was very spotty to get good service and consistent supply. But it Did change. We had times when we didn’t anticipate Christmas and Chinese New Years Shut downs. We’re starved for Product at times. We changed our ordering habits and smoothed that out. We had a good border brokerage who told us the truth about shipments. We did sell some customers direct from China, but in full container quantities. Packaging was a problem for a while, until I went over there, met with the CEO, and the cardboard plant CEO and spec’d out our Packaging needs. Cardboard over there is not the same quality as here. They can up the packaging quality and they did, eventually.

I remember one time when millions of dollars of VCR/CD players got sent to a very large US retailer where the circuit boards lacked a single diode and would not play USA CD’s. They got stuck with them all and eventually sold them for a song to European companies because they would play CD’s there. Millions of dollars. It‘s tricky doing business there sometimes, even for big players.

My point is simply this. I can’t excuse the unexpected delivery problems, freight mishandling, damaged cells. What I will say is that buying Chinese, (sometimes you don’t have a choice on certain products) you can expect challenges for the price. MCaro has had monumental problems to overcome and the number of issues at hand are massive. I would have to pay $80 min per cell more for Grade A Cells from a different supplier Here in the US. $640 more for my battery. So I took a chance on the savings. It still hasn’t worked out completely, because I have 8 more cells needing to come my way. I believe that if there is any way MCaro can make it up, he will. In the mean time, my son and others in the family have purchased other batteries and are moving on, hoping that the loss can be recovered.

This may be the stupidest post I could possibly make, (I can see flames already) but having had experience over there, I thought I would try and put some perspective on it for others. We took a risk on price and for some it hasn’t worked out. It hasn’t worked out completely for me either.... yet. That happens. AGain, I believe that if MCaro can make it up to us all, he will. It’s a tough position to be in. We had other business entities that helped us weather the storm until things, the learning curve, leveled out. MCaro may not have that option. I have never spoken with him personally. But I can imagine the mess he and us are in. I am hoping for full recovery and believing MCaro will do the very best he can. For a time, I was in his shoes, and it sucks. We pulled thru and figured it out. I hope he will for him, his family and for all of us who at the moment are stuck.

 

[ereams65]

It's not the "stupidest post" you could possibly make; there are lots of valid points. However, your experiences are actually part of the problem in this situation. No one is doubting that China is 'difficult to deal with'; that goes without saying. But rather, it's where the similarities end that the problem occurs. This is an assumption, of course, but I'd be willing to wager that what your company didn't do was take money from people, convincing them that said money would be protected in an escrow account, only for them to find out that simply isn't the case. Sure, some of the shipping issues are probably familiar, but the ultimate issue lies somewhere outside of shipping. Its safe to say that the #1 reason that most folks ordered from him were the issues you listed that you've had experience with, and if your "business model" is to say, 'I'll worry about the China issues so you don't have to for a nominal fee', then you've now created exactly what we have here; a quaqmire.

 

[Diysolar123]

but I'd be willing to wager that what your company didn't do was take money from people, convincing them that said money would be protected in an escrow account, only for them to find out that simply isn't the case.

this is the fundamental issue that caught me and others... he ASSURED everyone that the money was in separate accounts and safe until product shipped...he absolutely, positively lied about this.
This is not an issue of "got taken by surprise in world events of shipping/supply issues"...nope..
He did lie and used the money from future orders to cover existing orders AND attempt to "grow" a new business venture.

he flat out deceived the people on this board as to his "real" business practices which was to use ALL the money in his possession to gamble with as he saw fit. There NEVER was a separate account.

And he never even had the decency to say "sorry, I messed up here is X cents on the dollar"; he just took the money and, well, ran...

 

[Dmarkwa]

I saw that pop up in a group and was a little disappointed to be honest.
As a fellow battery and cell seller, I was sympathetic to his situation first, as it can be difficult getting Chinese business partners to hold up their end of the agreement. And I do believe him that he's not the cause of many of these issues. HOWEVER, he should, in my mind, be focusing his attention to fixing the situation for so many of his customers, rather than using his precious time to try and get new business.
That's what I would do anyway. It's not nice dealing with customer issues, particularly if they're because you were let down by someone else, but it's not just the right thing to do, in the long run it's also the best thing for your business.

I don’t think that is what you would do. Cash flow is necessary to heal the folks that he should heal, like those who never received cells at all But who paid. Cash flow comes from new sales and the profit margin associated Or liquidating assets. He either gets the cash by liquidating his personal holdings, or generating new business with trusted suppliers. For example, many customers who he did ship, and incurred damage during the shipping process, had UPS just “trash” the cells because they don’t return batteries from the delivery location. So MCaro ends up in a dispute, with no batteries to prove his case of poor packaging practices by his middle man, and needing to pay for the cells at his cost. If that happened only 100 times for 8 cell shipments, that’s worth $100,000 in dispute. So that’s $100,000 in cash flow unavailable. And many ordered more than 8 cells because the price was right. If you were him and wanted desperately to make things good, you‘ve got to create cash. If the business is too new, he has no access to a bank bridge loan. So sales is the only way he can heal and heal others he wants to heal. How he does that is a tough question. Perhaps he can find a sugar daddy and sell a large percentage of his business for a cash infusion. The good news is that the market is there, IF he can generate cash and find a trustworthy supplier. That’s how I see it.

 

[ereams65]

I don’t think that is what you would do. Cash flow is necessary to heal the folks that he should heal, like those who never received cells at all But who paid. Cash flow comes from new sales and the profit margin associated Or liquidating assets. He either gets the cash by liquidating his personal holdings, or generating new business with trusted suppliers. For example, many customers who he did ship, and incurred damage during the shipping process, had UPS just “trash” the cells because they don’t return batteries from the delivery location. So MCaro ends up in a dispute, with no batteries to prove his case of poor packaging practices by his middle man, and needing to pay for the cells at his cost. If that happened only 100 times for 8 cell shipments, that’s worth $100,000 in dispute. So that’s $100,000 in cash flow unavailable. And many ordered more than 8 cells because the price was right. If you were him and wanted desperately to make things good, you‘ve got to create cash. If the business is too new, he has no access to a bank bridge loan. So sales is the only way he can heal and heal others he wants to heal. How he does that is a tough question. Perhaps he can find a sugar daddy and sell a large percentage of his business for a cash infusion. The good news is that the market is there, IF he can generate cash and find a trustworthy supplier. That’s how I see it.

At the same time, if he has/had inventory to sell, those cells could be used to make some of these folks who are left holding the bag “whole”. And I’m not sure there are tons of investors out there who want to buy into a negative entity that has only Accts Payable and no Accts Receivable. End of the day, Ponzi type business schemes always fail. The day the piper needs paid always comes.

 

[Dmarkwa]

Yeah. Look, it's not that simple. Besides making sales to make other people whole, everyday that goes by he has overhead, burden, etc that eats in. I've been there and it's really a tough one to work out. We really don't know what receivables or payables he has. Or any of the financials. It does end up for a while like a ponzi scheme, robbing peter to pay paul, until cash flow turns positive assuming you can finance debt-payables/recievables somehow. And lack of communication doesn't help.

FWIW, Amazon lost money for 11 years. We think, well there are successful now, but in the first 11 years, he had to convince someone his loser was going to be a winner someday. And he did. Others are not so lucky or so good. My point is, if we want to be made whole, and that includes me, we ought to be rooting for this guy, not burying him, assuming he is honorable, and I think he is. And it still may not work out. Piling on top only makes our case worse not better. Businesses are run by people, not demi-gods. We take a chance everyday we purchase something. It's always a calculated risk. Some chances better, some worse.

 

[ereams65]

Yeah. Look, it's not that simple. Besides making sales to make other people whole, everyday that goes by he has overhead, burden, etc that eats in. I've been there and it's really a tough one to work out. We really don't know what receivables or payables he has. Or any of the financials. It does end up for a while like a ponzi scheme, robbing peter to pay paul, until cash flow turns positive assuming you can finance debt-payables/recievables somehow. And lack of communication doesn't help.

FWIW, Amazon lost money for 11 years. We think, well there are successful now, but in the first 11 years, he had to convince someone his loser was going to be a winner someday. And he did. Others are not so lucky or so good. My point is, if we want to be made whole, and that includes me, we ought to be rooting for this guy, not burying him, assuming he is honorable, and I think he is. And it still may not work out. Piling on top only makes our case worse not better. Businesses are run by people, not demi-gods. We take a chance everyday we purchase something. It's always a calculated risk. Some chances better, some worse.

Now imagine if Amazons first year had been taking orders and not filling them, but keeping the money. So that’s a far left field analogy. End of the day, if you start a business with no investment and plan to operate it off others’ then it’s ponzi, period.

 

[A.Justice]

Yeah. Look, it's not that simple. Besides making sales to make other people whole, everyday that goes by he has overhead, burden, etc that eats in. I've been there and it's really a tough one to work out. We really don't know what receivables or payables he has. Or any of the financials. It does end up for a while like a ponzi scheme, robbing peter to pay paul, until cash flow turns positive assuming you can finance debt-payables/recievables somehow.

Those are terrible business practices, and in no way are they normal. I own a small business and have never done something like that. When I need more money for equipment, I go do more work to earn it. I've never taken payment from one job to finish somebody else's. I'd guess that small businesses do it sometimes, and I'm positive that large ones do, but large business is can fall back on banks and bailouts, and small businesses fail often and sink the owner with them, limited liability or not.

And lack of communication doesn't help.

The fact that he's signing on and not communicating seems very malicious to me. Nothing says "funk you" quite like a digital read receipt, and no response.

FWIW, Amazon lost money for 11 years. We think, well there are successful now, but in the first 11 years, he had to convince someone his loser was going to be a winner someday. And he did.

I don't believe that Amazon ever took money for people's products before delivery, and reinvested that money into other people's products, and if they did, they were successful, so it's not really relevant.

Others are not so lucky or so good. My point is, if we want to be made whole, and that includes me, we ought to be rooting for this guy, not burying him, assuming he is honorable, and I think he is. And it still may not work out. Piling on top only makes our case worse not better.

I don't know what you mean by "piling on top", but I see nothing wrong with keeping a fire lit under his ass.

Businesses are run by people, not demi-gods.

And people make mistakes, and they also have to deal with the consequences, not hide.

 

[Butcher]

And I thought it was AWS that reversed the Amazon business model [losing money].

In the end, my wife had a small business and I had to work triple time to make certain everyone got paid. When the doors finally closed, I worked the same hours for a year to pay off the final small business loan. Everyone was paid in full and everyone was made aware of what was going on. If anyone had a late payment, it was days/weeks, not months.

Michael does what he does but his idea of making money has vanished and probably wishes he never made his house of cards.

 

[ScottWCO]

It's been a year and a day since I sent Michael my funds for eight Lishen cells. Still waiting on a refund.

 

[MullerEnergy-Australia]

It's been a year and a day since I sent Michael my funds for eight Lishen cells. Still waiting on a refund.

I wish I had customers like you guys! I just had a customer going off at me because he hasn't received a charger he ordered last week (I have to admit that was mainly my fault, though the payment showed up as declined but it had actually come through).

If you don't take action, there's no way you'll see your money or your batteries, unfortunately.

It is disappointing that this one person has shut down the entire commercial sale section of these forums.

 

[markcm]

I too sent Michael funds for battery sales he solicited. I only received a few, non descript communications from the time I sent funds, to the wait period for a tracking number, and then once the "debacle" started in the fall of 2021 I may have got one or two replies with non descript information from him. Since then, I have not received any communications from him, he never once stated any specific plan of action other than publicly stating "how hard he was working day and night to resolve these issues".

I haven't heard a single case of him making good, or making any effort, since fall of 2021 and don't suspect we will ever hear from him again here although it appears he is still trying to do battery sales through his big boss battery website, and his other web business which I think is Map Ad Pros

I think the general consensus is that Michael Caro and any funds sent to him for battery sales he solicited on this forum in 2021 are gone along with any efforts on his part to resolve this through Alibaba.

 

[Sanwizard]

I too sent Michael funds for battery sales he solicited. I only received a few, non descript communications from the time I sent funds, to the wait period for a tracking number, and then once the "debacle" started in the fall of 2021 I may have got one or two replies with non descript information from him. Since then, I have not received any communications from him, he never once stated any specific plan of action other than publicly stating "how hard he was working day and night to resolve these issues".

I haven't heard a single case of him making good, or making any effort, since fall of 2021 and don't suspect we will ever hear from him again here although it appears he is still trying to do battery sales through his big boss battery website, and his other web business which I think is Map Ad Pros

I think the general consensus is that Michael Caro and any funds sent to him for battery sales he solicited on this forum in 2021 are gone along with any efforts on his part to resolve this through Alibaba.

I think Mike had good intentions, but got in WAY over his head, as he never vetted his suppliers prior to taking orders. Once broken shipments began showing up, with everyone looking for refunds or replacements, he was at the mercy of his suppliers, who screwed him, so he in turn went silent. I was one of the initial purchases of the Lishen cells which never arrived. Thankfully, Mike refunded me via Paypal, so not everyone was screwed.
I feel sorry for everyone involved in this unfortunate fiasco, but I am sure a lot of very expensive lessons were learned.

 

[some-random-guy]

I know sometimes things go missing on cheap ocean freighters, that don't have insurance. There is actually a black market for shipping which can save quite a bit of money for Dangerous Goods.
Has anyone considered that? Did he ever give a responce?

 

[Butcher]

There's blame to be passed around evenly.

Buying because you are getting a good deal usually means you are taking some chances. There is a reason why a good business charges more. Those costs to run a good business [insurance] are passed down to the consumer.

I would not take on the risks that Mike did. If I did, I would have a plan so everyone would get paid back. Even if that takes a second job.

I would have never purchased items from people like this. That is how I do not get screwed. If there is a deal too good to pass up, before I pay, I think to myself "Am I ok with throwing away this money?".

Who cares why/how you got screwed. Excuses does not change things.

 

[Made in North Pole]

I am not sure why good intensions matter at this point. Could the fact that the person that screwed you didn't intend to screw you from the beginning makes you feel better?

 

[Butcher]

Using vasoline or not does not make it better. It's best to just learn a lesson and teach others.

Being cheap is a not a badge of honor.