Bluetti Apex 300 launched today… anyone have thoughts?

[plympton]

so the Apex 300 launched and folks are reviewing it (ahem.. @Kremer ). Anyone have experience with a unit to give practical thoughts?

Happy with the build quality over previous units?
Does it play nice with external batteries?
Is the solar limitation workable or is the SolarX more or less mandatory?
Is monitoring over Bluetooth still possible? I saw the bru-ha-ha over encryption and stopped updating firmware on my AC300.
Any stress tests?
Tested the 12k (!) pass through? How does that work in real life? Is it a “mode”? Does it disable anything? Is it just automatic??

Any experience with the Solar X 4k? Does it provide comms so that it talks to the Apex 300 about solar input? Does THAT unit need to be polled for data updates?
Basically is it better that hooking a generic SCC/MPPT up to an external battery pack for charging?? (The 550v range is nicer that Victron’s 250v limit)

So many questions!

 

[billvon]

so the Apex 300 launched and folks are reviewing it (ahem.. @Kremer ). Anyone have experience with a unit to give practical thoughts?

Unlikely based on the shipping date of August.

But it looks nice except for the ridiculously low PV input voltage (60V.)

 

[Andrewr05]

Everything about it (except the 60v input) at that launch price is amazingly good.

It's pretty dope that you can charge with 120V in and get 240V out of the unit.

Even just that alone could make the unit worthwhile enough for some people.

 

[Kremer]

I'll answer what I can, having had an Engineering mule for the past month:


Happy with the build quality over previous units?
It's solid, and a chunk of mass the new physical buttons on the front feel a bit lightweight.
Does it play nice with external batteries?
I have not tried the bare unit itself. works fine with a B300K attached though
Is the solar limitation workable or is the SolarX more or less mandatory?
All depends on what you want to do. generate a bunch of power full time and run part of your house like I am with the AC500? it will be difficult to get over 800-900W per input with their choices. 4K is kind of the opposite in my opinion, too much... For portable, camping, van, RV people the 60V limit is likely no issue for most.
Is monitoring over Bluetooth still possible? I saw the bru-ha-ha over encryption and stopped updating firmware on my AC300.
Nobody has updated their HA packages yet for it. I tried but it crashed out.
Any stress tests?
Yes. it will charge hard and discharge at full 3840W rating 100%-0 no issue.
Tested the 12k (!) pass through? How does that work in real life? Is it a “mode”? Does it disable anything? Is it just automatic??
I'll need the 50A 240V cord for that which isn't available yet. the passthrough ability might make more sense when you consider that when plugged in it and other multimode UPS capable Bluetti's actually parallel the inverter with the bypass path in standby and PV priority. In standby UPS mode it means you can put a 50A load on the output and the internals in the bypass path can handle that and draw it from the grid. When in PV priority the bypass path is still active, but the inverter is making power and pushing back to try to make the grid input zero. If you step load these units they will draw a little from grid for a moment until the inverter can catch up. If you put the full 50A load on apex in this mode the inverter would ramp to full to offset 3840W, and draw the rest of what you are loading it with from grid.

Any experience with the Solar X 4k? Does it provide comms so that it talks to the Apex 300 about solar input? Does THAT unit need to be polled for data updates?
I'm on the list to get one to test, no ETA yet. Yes it has comms to the headunit through the battery connector, and its own bluetooth integration.

Basically is it better that hooking a generic SCC/MPPT up to an external battery pack for charging?? (The 550v range is nicer that Victron’s 250v limit)
I see no advantage for bulk charging. The problem is when you bring the unit to 100% any external input really makes them not happy. My solution would be to set your external charge controller to just a volt less than what the AC200L/300/500/probably apex charge terminate at. It will happily get them right to the last step on the staircase, then let go so they can finish themselves with whatever array you have connected to the head unit.

 

[plympton]

That 12k bypass sounds pretty... great! If it's durable and reliable (big question, of course), that makes it a lot easier to fit into a most-house backup solution. But let me test this.

Say I hook this up 240v to my transfer switch.
I have 50a 240v going into the Apex and a 50a 240v cable going into my transfer switch.
There's 8 things in the TS, and 1 240v breaker for my oven. It can pull 12k (!) with everything on all at once.
The Apex will provide 3840w from storage, and the rest from pass through?
- or -
In Standby UPS mode, it pulls from the grid first, and fails-over to storage if the grid goes away (curious what happens to that 12k draw. Trips the Apex overload circuit?)
In PV Priority, it pulls from solar, then storage, and if the load is > than that can provide (3800w? or 3840w + "2400"w?)

I'm working through the video now (thorough!) - do the rotated output plugs get in the way of each other? Most plugs I see are right-angle dangly types.

Also, that combo in/out put - is there ANY chance of backfeeding to the grid???

 

[plympton]

So many questions!

You talk about the 0ms switchover time. Does this mean that if I hook up 240v to my transfer switch via the 50a connector, that 1 phase of my critical loads panel will be 0ms switchover? That's pretty cool if true (can't see why it wouldn't be based on your diagram...)

 

[Brucey]

How does it behave when charging from solar? The ecoflow delta 2 max will discharge battery to 98% then enable solar charging till 100% and repeat, causing microcycling.

 

[Kremer]

That 12k bypass sounds pretty... great! If it's durable and reliable (big question, of course), that makes it a lot easier to fit into a most-house backup solution. But let me test this.

Say I hook this up 240v to my transfer switch.
I have 50a 240v going into the Apex and a 50a 240v cable going into my transfer switch.
There's 8 things in the TS, and 1 240v breaker for my oven. It can pull 12k (!) with everything on all at once.
The Apex will provide 3840w from storage, and the rest from pass through?
- or -
In Standby UPS mode, it pulls from the grid first, and fails-over to storage if the grid goes away (curious what happens to that 12k draw. Trips the Apex overload circuit?)
In PV Priority, it pulls from solar, then storage, and if the load is > than that can provide (3800w? or 3840w + "2400"w?)

More or less I think so yes. If you are using the passthrough at above inverter rating, and grid drops, yes you will overload trip it.

I'm working through the video now (thorough!) - do the rotated output plugs get in the way of each other? Most plugs I see are right-angle dangly types.

So watch the Tesla charging. those are 90 degree flat to the wall plugs, and the tails on both face forward, so you couldn't use two of those together.
Then on the backfeeding my house part. All my cords and plugs are straight/inline, neither get in the way of anything.

Also, that combo in/out put - is there ANY chance of backfeeding to the grid???

Once I realized how PV priority worked a year or so ago. I also realized these units are capable of exporting to utility with just a firmware update. They are really the same as a hybrid inverter in a house with CT's on the house mains and software set to zero export.

 

[Kremer]

So many questions!

You talk about the 0ms switchover time. Does this mean that if I hook up 240v to my transfer switch via the 50a connector, that 1 phase of my critical loads panel will be 0ms switchover? That's pretty cool if true (can't see why it wouldn't be based on your diagram...)

The 0ms only works if the unit is set to 240V mode and being supplied with 120V. The double conversion online ups function is a byproduct of how they manufacture 240V split phase from the single 120V input. So yes one phase of your panel would be 0ms, but only if you have 120V grid input to the apex. Can't be using 50A 240V input. I think I say and wave hands that if being supplied with 240V input it has the 20ms on both phases.

 

[Kremer]

How does it behave when charging from solar? The ecoflow delta 2 max will discharge battery to 98% then enable solar charging till 100% and repeat, causing microcycling.

Same, all other Bluetti do this also. I have no idea why they don't let it charge to full, then back down solar until the unit gets to like 95% so there is some buffer both ways in the battery. Then throttle solar to attempt to match load and hold the battery at that target 95%. I know the units can throttle solar, I've seen it many times.

 

[plympton]

The 0ms only works if the unit is set to 240V mode and being supplied with 120V. The double conversion online ups function is a byproduct of how they manufacture 240V split phase from the single 120V input. So yes one phase of your panel would be 0ms, but only if you have 120V grid input to the apex. Can't be using 50A 240V input. I think I say and wave hands that if being supplied with 240V input it has the 20ms on both phases.

I like, but that you can't have it both ways. It's logical the way you explain it.

 

[Banjohn]

Any experience with the Solar X 4k? Does it provide comms so that it talks to the Apex 300 about solar input? Does THAT unit need to be polled for data updates?
I'm on the list to get one to test, no ETA yet. Yes it has comms to the headunit through the battery connector, and its own bluetooth integration.

Any idea why they limit the input to 60V?
Is there any compliance reason stopping them from increasing the voltage?
What kind of RSD will be compatible with the SolarX 4k?

 

[Andrewr05]

Any idea why they limit the input to 60V?
Is there any compliance reason stopping them from increasing the voltage?
What kind of RSD will be compatible with the SolarX 4k?

From what I've gathered it's some sort of collective agreement to limit all portable style units to a lower input range.
It happened all of a sudden earlier this year.

The 60V limit does suck, but at least in this case (and in the case of it being backwards compatible with the AC200Max and AC200L etc) you have the ability to use the SolarX 4K.

 

[Kremer]

Any idea why they limit the input to 60V?
Is there any compliance reason stopping them from increasing the voltage?

They are saying regulation and certification requirements. I heard at CES from others that having inputs over 60V is a more expensive certification and listing thing or something, but nobody could point at hard data. You would think the whole market took notice when the Anker F3800 came out with the 60V limit and took HARD criticism, which they promptly fixed with the 3800+. This was plenty early in the Apex development that Bluetti could have backtracked on the 60V thing.

What kind of RSD will be compatible with the SolarX 4k?

There is no mention in the PDF user manual I have for it.

 

[Airman68]

I just watched a nice video on this unit. As someone who has a Ecoflow Delta Pro, this is a similar category. I think the main advantages are portability, scalability and plug and play (also 240v if you need it). I like all the options and the solar x 4k is also a good option although, having a higher PV input seems like it would make sense. That said, I still think if you have the skill, building a system with separate components is financially the way to go. It will also allow you to replace or upgrade parts of your system 1 at a time. For someone like me with a part time off grid cabin, a Bluetti type system might be easier.

 

[plympton]

They are saying regulation and certification requirements. I heard at CES from others that having inputs over 60V is a more expensive certification and listing thing or something, but nobody could point at hard data. You would think the whole market took notice when the Anker F3800 came out with the 60V limit and took HARD criticism, which they promptly fixed with the 3800+. This was plenty early in the Apex development that Bluetti could have backtracked on the 60V thing.

That's crazy! I missed the announcement of the F3800+. When I heard about the F3800 and researched it, the killer flaw was:

It can’t do 240v while AC charging. It can do 240v while DC charging. Can't do 240v charging

All of which the Apex 300 can do -- BUT -- it has that stupid 60v solar input. And it's not even a technical limitation!?!

 

[Andrewr05]

That's crazy! I missed the announcement of the F3800+. When I heard about the F3800 and researched it, the killer flaw was:

All of which the Apex 300 can do -- BUT -- it has that stupid 60v solar input. And it's not even a technical limitation!?!

Look up Jasonoids video on YouTube where he uses a Chargeverter to feed the 3800 so he can keep the 240 active.

 

[vlpway]

Hi all, sorry in advance if this is a silly question, but I've searched for a while and don't see many people trying to do what I'm trying to do:

I have an electric Hyundai Ioniq 5, which has V2L output of 15Amp/1800w over 120v. However, I'd like to run a few appliances concurrently that would total around 3kw. As a result, during a power outage, I'd like to use the 77kw battery in the electric car to power the Apex 300, which would then power the appliances in my house.

I know that the Apex can power the appliances easily running normally, but my question is this: if I am charging the Apex at 120v15A/1800w from the car, will the appliances be able to pull the full 3800w through the 120v outputs while it is charging from the car?

If I understand correctly, the majority of power stations (except for the Delta 3 Pro and Delta Pro Ultra) will not be able to output anything over 1800w while charging at 120v/1800w, as they will be working in "passthrough" mode, but since the Apex has dual inverters, it should be able to output the 3800w, right?

If anyone has a test unit, could you check to see if the Apex can do this? I'd like confirmation that it can before I jump in on the indiegogo campaign.

Finally, does anyone see any safety issue with this setup? I read somewhere that there might be a "bonding" issue when running from car to power station to appliance...could that be a problem?

Thanks!

 

[Andrewr05]

Hi all, sorry in advance if this is a silly question, but I've searched for a while and don't see many people trying to do what I'm trying to do:

I have an electric Hyundai Ioniq 5, which has V2L output of 15Amp/1800w over 120v. However, I'd like to run a few appliances concurrently that would total around 3kw. As a result, during a power outage, I'd like to use the 77kw battery in the electric car to power the Apex 300, which would then power the appliances in my house.

I know that the Apex can power the appliances easily running normally, but my question is this: if I am charging the Apex at 120v15A/1800w from the car, will the appliances be able to pull the full 3800w through the 120v outputs while it is charging from the car?

@22:30

 

[vlpway]

Hi Andrew, thanks for the video! In it, he shows that 240v output is available during 120v charging, but I'm looking at just staying at 120v. Will this be able to output a total of 3kw through the 4 120v outlets while charging at 120v/1400w?

 

[Andrewr05]

Hi Andrew, thanks for the video! In it, he shows that 240v output is available during 120v charging, but I'm looking at just staying at 120v. Will this be able to output a total of 3kw through the 4 120v outlets while charging at 120v/1400w?

Well it has a UPS, so it will pass through whatever you are inputting.
Plus two of the front outlets are never pass through, they're only tied to the inverter.
So whatever loads that you are drawing through the unit via the right hand outlets will be powered by your car through the AC "UPS" passthrough and whatever is leftover will charge the units internal battery.

So yes, if you plug the Apex 300 into your cars power outlet that can provide 1,800W @ 120V you would still be able to use the units maximum output.

1,800W from the battery on the left hand two outlets and then 1,800W from the right hand outlets passed through from your car.
Then as stated above at any moment whatever you don't use of the 1800 watts it will charge your battery(ies) up with the remaining unused power.

 

[vlpway]

Awesome - that's what I thought - just wanted to make sure! Thanks for your help!

 

[Chuck2]

Any of you using the Bluetti devices, can you check to see if this one or any others will ever turn back ON after an outage that lasts longer than your battery capacity? I have a couple Bluetti units and had to stop using them for anything important because all they can do for certain is make sure that any extended outage will turn the unit off and it will NEVER turn the AC output back on again if you do not first even know there was an outage and then personally turn the AC output back ON. Can't use it for a UPS because of this. Refrigerator, freezer, sump pump.... no.

Have they corrected this inability for something billed as a UPS for critical circuits to simply allow grid power to the devices once it is restored?

I have two of them and a handful of batteries that I have no use for due to this fatal flaw in logic.

Will this new one by chance manage the meager task of simply resuming operation when the grid returns?

 

[plympton]

Any of you using the Bluetti devices, can you check to see if this one or any others will ever turn back ON after an outage that lasts longer than your battery capacity? I have a couple Bluetti units and had to stop using them for anything important because all they can do for certain is make sure that any extended outage will turn the unit off and it will NEVER turn the AC output back on again if you do not first even know there was an outage and then personally turn the AC output back ON. Can't use it for a UPS because of this. Refrigerator, freezer, sump pump.... no.

Have they corrected this inability for something billed as a UPS for critical circuits to simply allow grid power to the devices once it is restored?

I have two of them and a handful of batteries that I have no use for due to this fatal flaw in logic.

Will this new one by chance manage the meager task of simply resuming operation when the grid returns?

Apparently this is a firmware update for AC300 and AC500 units that can enable that, but you have to ask CS and pinky-swear something something. There was a Bluetti (rep?) in Texas on Reddit that was offering to facilitate that. You also had to never update your firmware again because it would un-do it.

That said, I believe I saw a setting when @Kremer did his review that alluded to that (finally!!)

 

[Kremer]

I'm looking at just staying at 120v. Will this be able to output a total of 3kw through the 4 120v outlets while charging at 120v/1400w?

Yes. in 120V mode it can charge from the C13 input and have the full 3840W continuous available at the outlets, via front or side. larger power stations with input limiters like this are great generator multipliers. They can charge continuously at a rate you set, while supplying zero to much more than the generator can supply to your load.