Bms question for 16s 3p 10kw battery system

[Uskiwi]

Hey guys,
I have a 16s 3p 10kw liion pack with no current bms.
I'm looking for a good inexpensive solution to balance and monitor all cells individually. The pack is 66vdc max as 16s or 8s 6p at 33vdc. I want to be able to monitor it. Bluetooth would be ideal. Currently looking at the 16s smart bt 30amp bms for $120-$150 each. The other option would be some smaller 8s or 16s non smart bms for like $20 each and then some type of 48 cell display. What other option can you guys think of? By the way the pack it run at less than 0.5c and stays well balanced within 20mv using those cheap $10 8s balancers (currently set at 8s 6p. Or 24v (33vdc max) system..
Thx

 

[AussieSim]

I like this BMS

200A Smart BMS from LLT Power

Hi! Anyone used this BMS from LLT Power: https://www.lithiumbatterypcb.com/product/7s-to-20s-200a-smart-bluetooth-bms/ Model No: JBD-AP20S002 Looks like a good bargain, what your views?

diysolarforum.com

but thus far I have only received 8 x 280Ah, so I haven't tried in in 16s

 

[Uskiwi]

I like this BMS

200A Smart BMS from LLT Power

Hi! Anyone used this BMS from LLT Power: https://www.lithiumbatterypcb.com/product/7s-to-20s-200a-smart-bluetooth-bms/ Model No: JBD-AP20S002 Looks like a good bargain, what your views?

diysolarforum.com

but thus far I have only received 8 x 280Ah, so I haven't tried in in 16s

Looks like what I've been looking at. The issue is that I need to buy 6 of them for 8s or 3 for 16s. Ideally a stacked bms would be perfect or just a multicell monitor to see battery voltages and then I would just use dumb bms for each string.

 

[AussieSim]

For 16s3p I assume that means you're making one 48V battery, with 16 sets of 3 parallel cells.
1 BMS can handle that, with 1 BMS lead per 3 parallel cells (apart from the 1st and 16th batteries)

 

[Uskiwi]

For 16s3p I assume that means you're making one 48V battery, with 16 sets of 3 parallel cells.
1 BMS can handle that, with 1 BMS lead per 3 parallel cells (apart from the 1st and 16th batteries)

I originally intended to do that but I was hesitant as I not too sure how they will perform (ie. Stay balanced) I have a 150amp tiny bms that I was going to hook up to do it with even built the wiring loom. The pack is a Samsung sdi ess 60ahr x 3.

 

[Uskiwi]

Do you have one 48V 16S 300ah battery, right? If you have one, You just need one 16S 200A BMS.
If you have two 24V 300ah batteries in Parallel, You need two 8S 100A BMS.

Its technically 3 packs of 48 vdc. (Operating voltage is 49vdc to 66vdc. Or as its configured now its 24vdc and 6 packs all in parallel. Thus the issue is I need a lot of bms's either 3 16s or 6 8s and with monitoring that gets expensive. My charge controller handles 24vdc to 65vdc. I don't seem to need a lot of balance as the c rate is low, but I do need all the safety factors

 

[edseld]

Its technically 3 packs of 48 vdc. (Operating voltage is 49vdc to 66vdc. Or as its configured now its 24vdc and 6 packs all in parallel. Thus the issue is I need a lot of bms's either 3 16s or 6 8s and with monitoring that gets expensive. My charge controller handles 24vdc to 65vdc. I don't seem to need a lot of balance as the c rate is low, but I do need all the safety factors

Suggest to use 3 16s BMS and 3 16s active cell balancer.

 

[Steve_S]

A bit of clarity, there are 1S, 4S, 8S and higher Active Balancers. (Various Types, Known Good are QNBBM & Heltec ) there are others but some of them out there are actually crap, so beware. Some have monitoring capabilities, others do not.

Some BMS' come with Active Balancing (Heltec for one).
Some BMS' have Passive Balancing (Chargery for example) but that's of little use on Cells over 100AH.

Standard Battery Packs are either 4S for 12V, 8S for 24V and 16S for 48V. (in LFP LiFePo4 land)
Balancers should be identical, so an 8S for a 24V-8S Pack.
Balancers CAN be used in tandem with a BMS, provided said BMS is not attempting to do any balancing (it confuses things badly).

IF you have 48V-16S Packs setup in parallel then you have to figure that each pack's BMS has to be able to act as a single battery for the purposes of Charge & Discharge. As packs charge/discharge, they can disconnect for Over/Under Volt, temp error. You have to assume that any single pack may become the "Last Man Standing" and so has to be able to handle the Full Charge & Discharge potential of your system. The importance of properly setting up a Parallel Bank of batteries cannot be understated. If done properly they will share load & charge and keep each other in good condition. Please refer to this document from Victron, especially from page 17 onwards. VICTRON Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf

IS Active / Passive balancing needed ? That depends on the cells / battery pack. If there is a low divergence between the cells it's not really needed and passive balancing can handle light divergence. IF divergence reaches into 1mv per Amp Hour (100AH cells diverging greater than 100mv) then Active Balancing MAY BE CALLED FOR.

Li-Ion BMS - White Paper - Dissipative vs. nondissipative balancing (a.k.a.: Passive vs. Active balancing)

Here is a Thread on Heltec's BMS with Active Balancing:

Heltec BMS' (up to 350A) with Active Balancing & Independent Active Balancers

Hi Folks. I have recently come across this Company (not a new company) which produced BMS' and Active Balancers. I found them via my ongoing search for an Active Balancing System and watched a couple of vids on the products and felt it is worthy of mention in the forum. They have High Amp...

diysolarforum.com

Heltec BMS with Active Balancers:
https://cncdheltec.en.alibaba.com/p....html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.88.70.534e57daBjGc72
Heltec Capacitance Balancers:
https://cncdheltec.en.alibaba.com/p...r.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.98.7.11367f36k6Mn9h
QNBBM Active Balancers: I am using the QNBBM-8S' on all my packs. 2x 175AH + 2x 280AH all 8S
-- IF you need 16S, these are (Daisy-chain able) together to make a 16S.
http://www.deligreenpower.com/deligreen-products/list-41-en.html

 

[Burke]

I am building a 16S 48 volt battery using Lishen 272 Ah cells, hopefully I will have the cells in the next few days. I decided to use a 300 Amp, Daly LiFePO4 BMS (not the smart BMS). I am also going to use a Chargery BMS16T with the balancing disabled just to monitor the pack as I would like to see what the cell voltages are, SOC, and see if there are any issues going on.

I haven't done a search, but I wonder if using the Chargery BMS function and the Daly BMS at the same time would cause any issues?

 

[Uskiwi]

A bit of clarity, there are 1S, 4S, 8S and higher Active Balancers. (Various Types, Known Good are QNBBM & Heltec ) there are others but some of them out there are actually crap, so beware. Some have monitoring capabilities, others do not.

Some BMS' come with Active Balancing (Heltec for one).
Some BMS' have Passive Balancing (Chargery for example) but that's of little use on Cells over 100AH.

Standard Battery Packs are either 4S for 12V, 8S for 24V and 16S for 48V. (in LFP LiFePo4 land)
Balancers should be identical, so an 8S for a 24V-8S Pack.
Balancers CAN be used in tandem with a BMS, provided said BMS is not attempting to do any balancing (it confuses things badly).

IF you have 48V-16S Packs setup in parallel then you have to figure that each pack's BMS has to be able to act as a single battery for the purposes of Charge & Discharge. As packs charge/discharge, they can disconnect for Over/Under Volt, temp error. You have to assume that any single pack may become the "Last Man Standing" and so has to be able to handle the Full Charge & Discharge potential of your system. The importance of properly setting up a Parallel Bank of batteries cannot be understated. If done properly they will share load & charge and keep each other in good condition. Please refer to this document from Victron, especially from page 17 onwards. VICTRON Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf

IS Active / Passive balancing needed ? That depends on the cells / battery pack. If there is a low divergence between the cells it's not really needed and passive balancing can handle light divergence. IF divergence reaches into 1mv per Amp Hour (100AH cells diverging greater than 100mv) then Active Balancing MAY BE CALLED FOR.

Li-Ion BMS - White Paper - Dissipative vs. nondissipative balancing (a.k.a.: Passive vs. Active balancing)

Here is a Thread on Heltec's BMS with Active Balancing:

Heltec BMS' (up to 350A) with Active Balancing & Independent Active Balancers

Hi Folks. I have recently come across this Company (not a new company) which produced BMS' and Active Balancers. I found them via my ongoing search for an Active Balancing System and watched a couple of vids on the products and felt it is worthy of mention in the forum. They have High Amp...

diysolarforum.com

Heltec BMS with Active Balancers:
https://cncdheltec.en.alibaba.com/p....html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.88.70.534e57daBjGc72
Heltec Capacitance Balancers:
https://cncdheltec.en.alibaba.com/p...r.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.98.7.11367f36k6Mn9h
QNBBM Active Balancers: I am using the QNBBM-8S' on all my packs. 2x 175AH + 2x 280AH all 8S
-- IF you need 16S, these are (Daisy-chain able) together to make a 16S.
http://www.deligreenpower.com/deligreen-products/list-41-en.html

Thanks Steve for the valuable information. I would like to say I know most of this info but of course I have only brushed the surface. My pack thankfully doesn’t diverge much < 20ma over a 2 to 4 day period and its is being used pretty lightly 32vdc max and 28.0Vdc min. Manufactures suggested limits are 65.6 (33.3) and 49.6 (24.8). The reason for the higher low cut off is it diverges like 2 to 3 times more the lower I set the minimum and I top balanced them on setup. These are used cells probably 80% capacity left. Originally 12kwh. They have been flawless so far as to be expected. Still need to get a proper balancer and disconnect though. Maybe I should just stick to setting up my 150 amp tiny bms and convert it back to a 48vdc system. Again thanks for your info.

 

[Uskiwi]

I am building a 16S 48 volt battery using Lishen 272 Ah cells, hopefully I will have the cells in the next few days. I decided to use a 300 Amp, Daly LiFePO4 BMS (not the smart BMS). I am also going to use a Chargery BMS16T with the balancing disabled just to monitor the pack as I would like to see what the cell voltages are, SOC, and see if there are any issues going on.

I haven't done a search, but I wonder if using the Chargery BMS function and the Daly BMS at the same time would cause any issues?

That’s some pretty big cells at 16s 272ah. I though mine were big at 16s 60ah! I gues technically in parallel they are 16s 3p at 180ah. I came extremely close to buying the 280ah lipos at Xmas off a local guy. Check out the utube guys “will prowse” who just tested your setup in a 4s setup. I think your setup will be great at over 13kwh. Let me know how it goes and performs.

 

[keepsake]

Does the Daly 250a model or any of Daly products, have a control port ? usb, bluetooth, or what ?
16s 48v

 

[Burke]

Does the Daly 250a model or any of Daly products, have a control port ? usb, bluetooth, or what ?
16s 48v

I think you need to get one of the SMART BMS versions from Daly to get ports and bluetooth.