Bonding / Grounding, Will's 13kW System, and my Youtube Community Ban

enough

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At the bottom of the thread are images of my comments on this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5czI7-9CVrU. The TLDR is that I posted a comment that an ungrounded (no EGC) high voltage (200-250v) PV array could kill someone and that an improperly grounded 240VAC Panel could injure someone. Will disagreed with me and immediately blocked my comment from being viewable.

So I'm interested in three things.
1. The panels Will sets up for this system have no equipment ground. See this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=01qYerhorwU Does the community agree this is dangerous? The argument for an equipment ground on solar panels is pretty clear, just check any solar panel installation manual and see the death warning. If anyone has installed an array and not installed an EGC, what is the argument against it?
2. Combining the grounds and neutrals in the 240V panel means that his equipment grounding conductor is in parallel with the neutral line back to the source - the inverter - and his ground is now a current-carrying ground. Also on the AC side, his system is missing an earth ground which would dissipate high and irregular voltage sources such as static. Does the community agree this is dangerous? If not, what are the arguments against?
3. Will saw my comment and blocked me within an hour of it being posted. Is this a regular occurrence in the community? Are the members of these forums and his youtube followers in an echo chamber where anyone that has disagreed with Will has been blocked an removed? I am really interested to see if this post is here in an hour.

My background - chemical engineer that is well practiced on electric systems both through my profession in manufacturing and through DIY work at home. I've installed two 4.5kW residential grid tie systems, one which I helped with and one which I designed and installed on my own home. I've also installed a 770W system with 4.4kwh battery on my camper trailer.

 

enough

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So this thread (and my account) made it past an hour! But we've got quite a few views and no responses, so I'll continue the discussion.

There is a lot of good information in the resources section of the site. I really like the examples and diagrams here:
and here:

Both "grounding made simpler" articles support the need to have EGCs on the solar panels - (1) above. They also support the need to have a permanent grounding electrode on the system - (2) above. Although it is unclear to me whether the LV6548 inverter has a neutral-ground bond, isolated ground, or the ability to connect/disconnect the the ground/neutral as appropriate when AC input is provided. Whether or not it is appropriate to bond the neutral and ground in the 240V panel, would depend on that.
Edit: So these inverters have a bonded neutral and ground on the AC outlets. Therefore the neutrals and grounds should be separated in the 240v panel - just like a sub panel. Found this thread for reference: 'LV6548 Grounding issues'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/
Also reference the stationary equipment grounding guide above.

For item (3) above, I suspect that people might be afraid to comment, but a message that I received confirmed that I am not the only one to have this type of experience in this community:
In an effort to not get banned, I have read all the rules and I believe I am following all of them - although I would highlight two in particular as I think that someone else might need a refresher.
 
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Gazoo

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I am not so sure I agree with what Mr. Anonymous said. It takes a lot of work to get banned from this forum. In fact I signed up for this forum because I had a disagreement with Will pertaining to one of his YouTube reviews of a new product. I posted my disagreement and of course all of Will's supporters defended him which was understandable and expected. I was new and it was my first post...lol. But I stood my ground and In the end all became good with Will and I and his supporters. Will pointed out a couple of things in his follow up video review of the product which cleared things up. I have had a couple other disagreements with Will but I am still here.

I don't watch the comments posted in Will's videos unless I feel there is a need. Will's YouTube channel is different from this forum. I would say you have made your case and there was no need for you to post any concerns about being banned from the forum or relaying what Mr. Anonymous thinks. That not cool IMO and I would have kept that to myself. Also throwing the code of conduct back at Will isn't cool either.

Sometimes things have to be weighed out. Will pays for this forum out of his own pocket. This forum provides treasure trove of information all for free. Having one disagreement with Will is not worth it The information provided here is valuable and you found valuable information in the resources section. I would just leave it at that unless someone wants to comment about grounding solar panels or whatever.
 
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MurphyGuy

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Solar arrays should be grounded to the earth.

Inverters pushing 120/240 should also be grounded to earth.

Both of these rules have exceptions.

If someone doesn't think they need an earth ground conductor, that's their business..
If someone thinks they can watch a youtube video and become an expert, that's their business..

I'm fine with both. An improperly installed youtube system isn't going to hurt me hundreds or thousands of miles away.

I sunk a ground rod next to my array.. the metal structure of my array is grounded to that rod, and that same rod is bonded back to my home's main ground.

My off grid system, when I go off-grid, plugs into my home's breaker panel and makes use of the home's earth ground. When not in use, the off-grid system is completely isolated.

Lightening protectors don't "dissipate" the energy, they shunt the energy to earth ground. It kind of depends on how one uses the definition of "dissipate".. general use means to "spread out" .
 

time2roll

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I agree the panels eventually need to be grounded. Seems like for the video the set up is a bit more proof of concept than fully installed. I would assume the ground will be completed later when the panels have a permanent resting spot.

The inverter ground connected to the same neutral bus in the panel would seem fine to me as this is common in the primary distribution panel. I don't believe the ground connection to the inverter will become a current caring conductor unless there is a fault. Inverter installation manual should cover this and I am not inclined to look it up.

Yes I agree the distribution panel should have an earth ground. And again the video seems more proof of concept vs a final installation.

If in doubt I defer to Mike Holt. https://forums.mikeholt.com/forums/bonding-and-grounding.22/

Once completed I recommend a city permit.
 

Tecnodave

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Im a total off gridder but all of the components in my solar system are UL approved for the use intended, I comply with the NEC, my main MPPT controllers have GFCI and AFCI built in. Combiners have lightning protectors as well as the inputs and outputs of the inverter/charger. I have a ground rod at every array with a 6 ga. buried bare copper wire connecting all the ground rods togather and only 1 connection from the main panel to the ground rod.

Even though I am exempt from the building code i very much do see the value and need for the code. I have been known to replace entire power system in a residence from the weather head down to the ground rod without asking anyone but you will agree with my wiring standard or you can just find someone who will do what you want.

I did a career in engineering for a huge corporation , retired and did electrical for too many years to count. Got involved in house restorations some Victorians, preserving the flavor but bringing to current code. Done maybe 500 older house remodels , only the electrics....from the masthead to the ground and everything in between. I have never had a inspector snivel about my work.

I have never had a burn down due to a electrical failure, I sleep very well knowing those families are protected from electrical fault...

I was criticized on this forum for advising a customer to remove and a discard a way underdesigned power wall that he had bought for $4000 on amazon, Well that customer had three very high end electric cars in the driveway of his million dollar plus home in the Santa Cruz mountains......He did not need to save a few bucks on this way cheep underdesigned system on his investment. It was not UL approved and not compliant with the NEC and had already done a thousand in damages to components in the home. As an engineer I was asked my best advice and i gave it.
A few on this forum are using the same charger/inverter/controller that i discarded to the scrap head, brand new removed from this system.

I have my standards, i'm not going to comment on yours, if you want to have no ground , no safety system thats on you. I will not touch that system, any decent lawyer will find out who you are to see if they can milk you for everything.

As i have held many licenses dating back to 1965 both state and federal, in industry, housing and automotive, I would have no ground to plead ignorance in any lawsuit and any decent lawyer would take me to the cleaners.

Personally I can see no reason for anybody to say you don't need to ground your system

But we do have free speech..........maybe

Thats me up the ladder , the cable in my hands is live 200 amp 240 volt delta hi-leg three phase the other cable is live 100 amp 240 delta hi-leg 3 phase. The middle pole snapped at the ground and I set the pole on the left and am transferring the POCO connections to the new pole.......the pole to the far right is the POCO....those are 8kv line to line, 5kv line to ground

<little mistake in the post, the pole that i am on is the one that i set, look closely you will see polypropylene ropes steadying the middle pole, completely shattered at ground level>
 

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enough

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Good discussion, glad to know that I am not crazy.

If someone doesn't think they need an earth ground conductor, that's their business..
If someone thinks they can watch a youtube video and become an expert, that's their business..

I'm fine with both. An improperly installed youtube system isn't going to hurt me hundreds or thousands of miles away.
I see where your coming from, but think of the context and impact of these videos. He is showing a huge audience how they can "DIY", he is showing them how to do it incorrectly, and (at least in my experience) blocking those that try to warn viewers. So no, his improperly installed system isn't going to hurt you or I, but it is likely that someone who is just getting started is going to copy his setup and could get seriously injured or killed. There's a saying in manufacturing that "safety is everyone's job". It basically means that if you see something unsafe you have not only the authority but an obligation to speak up.

I would say you have made your case and there was no need for you to post any concerns about being banned from the forum
I think after being banned from the youtube community in that manner (video on grounding asks people to comment if they disagree with the grounding and I am immediately banned for commenting that I disagree with the grounding), I have valid concerns about being banned from the forum.

Im a total off gridder but all of the components in my solar system are UL approved for the use intended, I comply with the NEC, my main MPPT controllers have GFCI and AFCI built in. Combiners have lightning protectors as well as the inputs and outputs of the inverter/charger. I have a ground rod at every array with a 6 ga. buried bare copper wire connecting all the ground rods togather and only 1 connection from the main panel to the ground rod.

Even though I am exempt from the building code i very much do see the value and need for the code. I have been known to replace entire power system in a residence from the weather head down to the ground rod without asking anyone but you will agree with my wiring standard or you can just find someone who will do what you want.

I did a career in engineering for a huge corporation , retired and did electrical for too many years to count. Got involved in house restorations some Victorians, preserving the flavor but bringing to current code. Done maybe 500 older house remodels , only the electrics....from the masthead to the ground and everything in between. I have never had a inspector snivel about my work.

I have never had a burn down due to a electrical failure, I sleep very well knowing those families are protected from electrical fault...

I was criticized on this forum for advising a customer to remove and a discard a way underdesigned power wall that he had bought for $4000 on amazon, Well that customer had three very high end electric cars in the driveway of his million dollar plus home in the Santa Cruz mountains......He did not need to save a few bucks on this way cheep underdesigned system on his investment. It was not UL approved and not compliant with the NEC and had already done a thousand in damages to components in the home. As an engineer I was asked my best advice and i gave it.
A few on this forum are using the same charger/inverter/controller that i discarded to the scrap head, brand new removed from this system.

I have my standards, i'm not going to comment on yours, if you want to have no ground , no safety system thats on you. I will not touch that system, any decent lawyer will find out who you are to see if they can milk you for everything.

As i have held many licenses dating back to 1965 both state and federal, in industry, housing and automotive, I would have no ground to plead ignorance in any lawsuit and any decent lawyer would take me to the cleaners.

Personally I can see no reason for anybody to say you don't need to ground your system

But we do have free speech..........maybe

Thats me up the ladder , the cable in my hands is live 200 amp 240 volt delta hi-leg three phase the other cable is live 100 amp 240 delta hi-leg 3 phase. The middle pole snapped at the ground and I set the pole on the left and am transferring the POCO connections to the new pole.......the pole to the right is the POCO....those are 8kv line to line, 5kv line to ground
Thanks for sharing this. Between installing solar panels and refinishing the kitchen in an old victorian (circa 1896) I can definitely relate. Once you start opening walls you find a lot of issues in houses that have been 'upgraded' over the last hundred years. Old houses are so cool, both for architecture and build quality but it is a labor of love.

The pole work is very impressive - I don't see myself doing anything like that any time soon haha.
 

Will Prowse

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At the bottom of the thread are images of my comments on this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5czI7-9CVrU. The TLDR is that I posted a comment that an ungrounded (no EGC) high voltage (200-250v) PV array could kill someone and that an improperly grounded 240VAC Panel could injure someone. Will disagreed with me and immediately blocked my comment from being viewable.

So I'm interested in three things.
1. The panels Will sets up for this system have no equipment ground. See this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=01qYerhorwU Does the community agree this is dangerous? The argument for an equipment ground on solar panels is pretty clear, just check any solar panel installation manual and see the death warning. If anyone has installed an array and not installed an EGC, what is the argument against it?
2. Combining the grounds and neutrals in the 240V panel means that his equipment grounding conductor is in parallel with the neutral line back to the source - the inverter - and his ground is now a current-carrying ground. Also on the AC side, his system is missing an earth ground which would dissipate high and irregular voltage sources such as static. Does the community agree this is dangerous? If not, what are the arguments against?
3. Will saw my comment and blocked me within an hour of it being posted. Is this a regular occurrence in the community? Are the members of these forums and his youtube followers in an echo chamber where anyone that has disagreed with Will has been blocked an removed? I am really interested to see if this post is here in an hour.

My background - chemical engineer that is well practiced on electric systems both through my profession in manufacturing and through DIY work at home. I've installed two 4.5kW residential grid tie systems, one which I helped with and one which I designed and installed on my own home. I've also installed a 770W system with 4.4kwh battery on my camper trailer.

Yeah, I totally banned this guy because he was spamming this comment on multiple videos, and I was not able to respond back to every single one. I banned him because I mentioned these exact points in my video, and he completely ignored them. He is trying to nitpick and "prove me wrong" even though I mentioned these exact points in the videos. Very frustrating.

1. Yes it does have a grounding conductor supplied at the ac input when it is connected to grid. I said this multiple times in the video, and that is exactly what was stated in the manual. Literally what you just stated, I said in the video. This system, when not connected at the AC input to grid, is a floating system, and that is fine.

No, you do not need to ground your PV supply cables. Check the Sol Ark manual or Victron wiring manual. What is the point? SPD at combiner box is a great idea. But it depends on where you live. In a grid tie array, you need to ground the frames.

2. No it is not dangerous, and I see your concern here but bonding at the inverter output would be even more dangerous and messy. Think about it. Why do you personally think it has a separate terminal at the output? Bonding at inverter output would be plain dangerous. I used to do that, but most people using these for split phase output bond at the panel instead now. Ask Ian from MPP solar. If you keep them separate, then my tesla charger gives me an error code. I actually brought this up a couple years ago when I first setup a split phase output inverter, and had this exact issue. So I am guessing you must be new to these systems and to my videos, because this has been mentioned many times. The best way I have found to wire it is to bond at the panel. That is how the unit is designed to work.

Yes charge accumulation is a small concern so I have a true earth ground on the ac input. That is the whole point of it, and I mentioned this in the video. But luckily, I do not have sensitive electronics connnected to this system, so it is not a concern for me. It can be a floating system without issue. Technically, the whole system is grounded with 6 gauge conductor by way of the air conditioner. I am not counting that, but it would absolutely dissipate any charge accumulation. So again, not a big issue.

3. Yeah I blocked you! I love when people challenge me with good arguments, but you have spammed my comments and did not watch my videos, and you do not understand how these systems work. I would LOVE for you to bring things to my attention that need to be changed or to prove me wrong, but your arguments are weak and you are patronizing. Please show me how I am wrong, and I would love to debate all day long. But what you posted and how you are posting it show that you do not know what you are talking about, you do not watch my videos (including past videos where this was mentioned), and provide no alternative method of dealing with the gray areas of offgrid systems. Having a floating system is FINE. If you can prove me wrong as to why, please, do so.

No, I have disagreements with forum members and mods all the time. I do not mind it at all. This community is fantastic for having disagreements, and I love it!
 

Will Prowse

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I agree the panels eventually need to be grounded. Seems like for the video the set up is a bit more proof of concept than fully installed. I would assume the ground will be completed later when the panels have a permanent resting spot.

The inverter ground connected to the same neutral bus in the panel would seem fine to me as this is common in the primary distribution panel. I don't believe the ground connection to the inverter will become a current caring conductor unless there is a fault. Inverter installation manual should cover this and I am not inclined to look it up.

Yes I agree the distribution panel should have an earth ground. And again the video seems more proof of concept vs a final installation.

If in doubt I defer to Mike Holt. https://forums.mikeholt.com/forums/bonding-and-grounding.22/

Once completed I recommend a city permit.
Auxiliary Electrode Dangers.jpg
Mike Holt disagrees with you. If I add an auxillary electrode and an electrical strike happens nearby, I will destroy my equipment. That is not very smart to do. Having multiple earthing electrodes is asking for problems. Did everyone forget about ground loops? This is why NEC states not to have an earth ground for SDS. The grounding conductor of SDS is connected at transfer switch when it is connected. This is the same reason why SolArk and other offgrid inverters have a ground relay. When powering loads with bypass, you need connection to true earth ground, supplied by main panel, at one point only. If not, you will have problems. When it is NOT being used as bypass, and being used as floating system and a SDS, true earth ground is unnecessary, and the ground relay will switch to "open". That is the whole reason it exists. If you did not, you could destroy your equipment.
 

Will Prowse

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So this thread (and my account) made it past an hour! But we've got quite a few views and no responses, so I'll continue the discussion.

There is a lot of good information in the resources section of the site. I really like the examples and diagrams here:
and here:

Both "grounding made simpler" articles support the need to have EGCs on the solar panels - (1) above. They also support the need to have a permanent grounding electrode on the system - (2) above. Although it is unclear to me whether the LV6548 inverter has a neutral-ground bond, isolated ground, or the ability to connect/disconnect the the ground/neutral as appropriate when AC input is provided. Whether or not it is appropriate to bond the neutral and ground in the 240V panel, would depend on that.
Edit: So these inverters have a bonded neutral and ground on the AC outlets. Therefore the neutrals and grounds should be separated in the 240v panel - just like a sub panel. Found this thread for reference: 'LV6548 Grounding issues'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/
Also reference the stationary equipment grounding guide above.

For item (3) above, I suspect that people might be afraid to comment, but a message that I received confirmed that I am not the only one to have this type of experience in this community:
In an effort to not get banned, I have read all the rules and I believe I am following all of them - although I would highlight two in particular as I think that someone else might need a refresher.
If I were to do that, I could not power my tesla charger! This problem has been an issue in my videos in years past. And of course it is bonded in the inverter itself. And bonding at the inverter output is dangerous. And it is not stated to do so in the manual. What you are telling people to do here is dangerous. Do you not understand why we are bonding at the panel? You may have to bond 6+ inverters together. You cannot do it at the output. There is a separate terminal for a reason. If not, they would have had only two conductors and thats it. But we need to connect the cases of these units.
 

Will Prowse

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I even had a few commenters angry that I used a true earth ground at all on my system because the 6 gauge ground coming from air conditioner would work just fine. Running it as a floating system 100% works great, and the only concern I have is adding a SPD to a true earth grounding electrode, or when connecting the AC input, it needs true earth grounding. And thats it! I stated this in the video multiple times.
 

Will Prowse

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FireShot Capture 004 -  - www.victronenergy.com.png
A floating system is fine to use. This is a basic diagram from the victron unlimited wiring manual. You have an inverter, and you have a load. It is the same as connecting a basic 12V inverter to a lead acid battery. There is NOTHING wrong with this.

Do you have a true earth ground connected to an inverter connected to your car's battery? What purpose would it serve? Exactly, it would be pointless to add. You can save money on copper by grounding to chassis, but it is not required. If you have a shore power connection, which would be similar to my system connecting the ac charger to grid, then you absolutely need a true earth ground because that supply requires it. And this is stated in the manual of these inverters! I mentioned this in the video, and when my system connects to grid, it has a grounding conductor.
 

enough

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No, you do not need to ground your PV supply cables. Check the Sol Ark manual or Victron wiring manual. What is the point? SPD at combiner box is a great idea. But it depends on where you live. In a grid tie array, you need to ground the frames.
I didnt say anything about grounding the PV supply cables. We are talking about an EGC that would ground the PV frames. Why do you think you only need to ground the frames in a grid-tie array?

2. No it is not dangerous, and I see your concern here but bonding at the inverter output would be even more dangerous and messy. Think about it. Why do you personally think it has a separate terminal at the output? Bonding at inverter output would be plain dangerous. I used to do that, but most people using these for split phase output bond at the panel instead now. Ask Ian from MPP solar. If you keep them separate, then my tesla charger gives me an error code. I actually brought this up a couple years ago when I first setup a split phase output inverter, and had this exact issue. So I am guessing you must be new to these systems and to my videos, because this has been mentioned many times. The best way I have found to wire it is to bond at the panel. That is how the unit is designed to work.
I do not own this inverter, but per this post:https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/, the grounds and neutrals are bonded at the inverters' AC output. If they are not, yes, they should be bonded in the panel.

Yes charge accumulation is a small concern so I have a true earth ground on the ac input. That is the whole point of it, and I mentioned this in the video. But luckily, I do not have sensitive electronics connnected to this system, so it is not a concern for me. It can be a floating system without issue. Technically, the whole system is grounded with 6 gauge conductor by way of the air conditioner. I am not counting that, but it would absolutely dissipate any charge accumulation. So again, not a big issue.
AC input via a 120 plug (which you didnt have in the first video) is not a permanent ground electrode connection.

Yeah, I totally banned this guy because he was spamming this comment on multiple videos, and I was not able to respond back to every single one. I banned him because I mentioned these exact points in my video, and he completely ignored them. He is trying to nitpick and "prove me wrong" even though I mentioned these exact points in the videos. Very frustrating.

Yeah I blocked you! I love when people challenge me with good arguments, but you have spammed my comments and did not watch my videos, and you do not understand how these systems work. I would LOVE for you to bring things to my attention that need to be changed or to prove me wrong, but your arguments are weak and you are patronizing. Please show me how I am wrong, and I would love to debate all day long. But what you posted and how you are posting it show that you do not know what you are talking about, you do not watch my videos (including past videos where this was mentioned), and provide no alternative method of dealing with the gray areas of offgrid systems. Having a floating system is FINE. If you can prove me wrong as to why, please, do so.
I don't believe my comments were spamming but this is subjective and anyone can see them above and decide for themselves.
 

Will Prowse

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Why is this thread posted in residential solar? That does not make any sense at all. I am using an inverter that is not UL 1741, and it is an offgrid inverter. Not a hybrid, not a grid tie inverter. This system would never be used in a system zoned for residential use in a million years. And it would never require the same requirements. Do you pull permits when you run an inverter off a car battery? Furthermore, my array is not connected to a structure, so I can do as I please with it. If my panels were attached to a metal building, the whole thing would be grounded per NEC. That would be dangerous not to. But having some panels laying out on the ground? I could care less. I do not see the point at all. What am I protecting against if I did? They are touching the earth. And sol ark manual states the solar supply conductors do not need to be grounded. I would add an SPD if I had to, but for my situation, I do not see the point. Maybe if I lived in an area prone to lightning and had a long run of conductor supplying my array, then sure. But my conductors connect a few feet away from my controller. I just don't see the point. I would love for someone to prove me wrong on this point.
 

Will Prowse

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I didnt say anything about grounding the PV supply cables. We are talking about an EGC that would ground the PV frames. Why do you think you only need to ground the frames in a grid-tie array?


I do not own this inverter, but per this post:https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/, the grounds and neutrals are bonded at the inverters' AC output. If they are not, yes, they should be bonded in the panel.


AC input via a 120 plug (which you didnt have in the first video) is not a permanent ground electrode connection.


I don't believe my comments were spamming but this is subjective and anyone can see them above and decide for themselves.
They are on the ground. If they were attached to a metal building or some structure, I would absolutely ground the frames. But they are literally touching earth ground 24/7. I just do not see the point in running extra conductors. See my comment above where I elaborate.

Yes exactly. I knew this over a year ago when I setup my first split phase output system, and that is why I am bonding at the panel. Imagine having multiple inverters in parallel. Running a separate conductor at the output terminal seems very dangerous, and I have never seen anyone do that on a professional installation with offgrid inverters. I do not see the point. Just run the grounds to the panel and bond. You should bond at one point. You can separate them and bond with one conductor if you wish. If you keep them separate, and treat the panel as a residential sub panel, you will have problems. You have to consider the panel as being used as a main panel. And you do not need a main circuit breaker because the inverters has its own OCP. If you wish to add redundant OCPD's, then go for it. There is no danger in having one device for this purpose.

It is when its connected to shore power. If you disagree with this statement, look at the wiring diagrams for boats shore power and RV shore power. There is no true earth ground, until it is connected to the grid. Then it is supplied by the grounding conductor. It is fine for this purpose. Read any manual for a shore power connection for RV and boats, and you will see that this is common and normal to supply earth ground with the shore power grounding conductor. That is its purpose.

You posted that same comment multiple times (4 times?) and I am not going to copy and paste my responses to multiple threads. If you did one single comment, then I could respond and explain to you how it works, then I would never have blocked you. But spamming the replies and not allowing me to respond in a fair fashion, in my opinion, is unfair. How would you feel if someone did that to you?
 

enough

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But having some panels laying out on the ground? I could care less. I do not see the point at all. What am I protecting against if I did? They are touching the earth.

They are on the ground. If they were attached to a metal building or some structure, I would absolutely ground the frames. But they are literally touching earth ground 24/7. I just do not see the point in running extra conductors. See my comment above where I elaborate.

As you know, the earth is not a grounding conductor. There are shock hazard with ungrounded (no EGC) panel frames in high voltage PV strings.

Why is this thread posted in residential solar?
Your system is in your residence, yes? Sorry if it is mis-categorized, feel free to move it.
 

enough

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Dec 25, 2020
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You posted that same comment multiple times (4 times?)
I don't know how to say that I did not, other than I did not. I did comment each of the two videos. Excluding one comment I made on the other video, every comment is included in the above screen shot.

Edit to add: As the youtube channel owner, you can still see all my comments. Please post evidence where I posted the same comment 4 times (you can't). You and I both know that you are lying here and telling others in this thread that I was spamming so that you can justify banning me after the fact.
 
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Will Prowse

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As you know, the earth is not a grounding conductor. There are shock hazard with ungrounded (no EGC) panel frames in high voltage PV strings.


Your system is in your residence, yes? Sorry if it is mis-categorized, feel free to move it.
Yes absolutely, but the frames are touching ground, so I do not see an issue. If I had a combiner box, I would need to run a dedicated ground. I am running single series strings with PV wires, so I do not see a shock hazard here. What would complete the circuit in this instance? If I had a panel where multiple pv conductors were connected, I would have a major shock hazard, and I would need to ground it. If one of those wires were to touch a case, that would be awful. But I do not have that in this system. I have 2 simple conductors coming in attaching to MC4. I do not see the danger here. On the bluetti and ecoflow delta pro, we have 150VDC connected with MC4 in the exact same fashion. Have you critiqued these companies design yet? Why do they not require a grounding conductor for the frames here? I agree that if you are doing a residential install, or to any form of structure, you need to ground the frames.

We have grounding discussions all the time, and I think I need to make a whole new section for it in due time. I will try to think of an appropriate name to call the section so we can move this thread and others there.
 

eabyrd

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Why is this thread posted in residential solar? That does not make any sense at all. I am using an inverter that is not UL 1741, and it is an offgrid inverter. Not a hybrid, not a grid tie inverter. This system would never be used in a system zoned for residential use in a million years. And it would never require the same requirements. Do you pull permits when you run an inverter off a car battery? Furthermore, my array is not connected to a structure, so I can do as I please with it. If my panels were attached to a metal building, the whole thing would be grounded per NEC. That would be dangerous not to. But having some panels laying out on the ground? I could care less. I do not see the point at all. What am I protecting against if I did? They are touching the earth. And sol ark manual states the solar supply conductors do not need to be grounded. I would add an SPD if I had to, but for my situation, I do not see the point. Maybe if I lived in an area prone to lightning and had a long run of conductor supplying my array, then sure. But my conductors connect a few feet away from my controller. I just don't see the point. I would love for someone to prove me wrong on this point.
Are you not using the LV6548? That’s advertised as having an UL1741 listing. Beyond that your playing semantics. Plenty of off grid vacation cabins running non UL gear. Those aren’t “primary” residences, but they are residences.

The proper grounding of the AC side of inverters is vital, and something I am struggling with frankly since the manufacturers are cryptic at best in many cases.

If I recall your panel frames are sitting on the ground. Not sure how much more driving a stake, and bonding them together and then to that stake gets you. If you float them, that’s another story though
 
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