Bonding / Grounding, Will's 13kW System, and my Youtube Community Ban

enough

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Will Prowse

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Will, we agree here. I am saying - per this post https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/- that the Neutral and ground is bonded internally within the LV6548 inverters on the AC out connection. Definitely run three conductors to the panel, definitely bond all the inverters' grounds together, but keep the neutral lines isolated in your panel, otherwise you are bonding at two points.
Ok fair point. Having one point would be ideal. That is true.

Update edit: connected both ground conductors next to each other on the bus bar. They share one bus bar, so I think it will work fine like this.
 
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Will Prowse

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Are you not using the LV6548? That’s advertised as having an UL1741 listing. Beyond that your playing semantics. Plenty of off grid vacation cabins running non UL gear. Those aren’t “primary” residences, but they are residences.

The proper grounding of the AC side of inverters is vital, and something I am struggling with frankly since the manufacturers are cryptic at best in many cases.

If I recall your panel frames are sitting on the ground. Not sure how much more driving a stake, and bonding them together and then to that stake gets you. If you float them, that’s another story though
It is UL1741 certified, it is not listed. And it is not approved for use for grid tie. But it is not a grid tie inverter, so it wouldn't matter anyways. And yes I agree, they are residences in the sense that people reside in them. But there are specific codes for residential solar versus commercial solar. String voltages and max capacities etc. Quite a few differences.

Yes absolutely. If you have a grounding conductor that is properly connected to your supply side, you should be good to go. Just imagine it as a shore power connection for an RV.

Yes very true. If it was a small wooden frame, I would not see the need for grounding them. But an actual metal structure, or residential structure with fire safety codes for solar arrays, then I would have to ground it per code.
 

eabyrd

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Will, we agree here. I am saying - per this post https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv6548-grounding-issues.21531/- that the Neutral and ground is bonded internally within the LV6548 inverters on the AC out connection. Definitely run three conductors to the panel, definitely bond all the inverters' grounds together, but keep the neutral lines isolated in your panel, otherwise you are bonding at two points.
When you say “panel” above do you mean the sub panel, the main service panel, both? If the sub-panel that’s correct, but does removing the bond at the service entrance not create a fault risk for all circuits still running from it. Especially if the inverter is also working on grid power in bypass mode?
 

enough

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When you say “panel” above do you mean the sub panel, the main service panel, both? If the sub-panel that’s correct, but does removing the bond at the service entrance not create a fault risk for all circuits still running from it. Especially if the inverter is also working on grid power in bypass mode?
I'm referring to the panel in his video- a 240V panel supplied power by the two LV6548 inverters. It is not really a sub panel and definitely not a service entrance panel. In respect to the ground/neutral bonding, it is acting like a sub-panel since the neutral and ground is bonded internally within the LV6548 inverters on the AC out connection
 

eabyrd

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I'm referring to the panel in his video- a 240V panel supplied power by the two LV6548 inverters. It is not really a sub panel and definitely not a service entrance panel. In respect to the ground/neutral bonding, it is acting like a sub-panel since the neutral and ground is bonded internally within the LV6548 inverters on the AC out connection
Okay, I am caught up. if those inverters are also tied to an AC input, then when “inverting” and creating their internal bond for output, they must isolate their output neutral from their input neutral while maintaining their EGC (ground) path back to the main service panel. Agreed?
 

mrzed001

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Okay, I am caught up. if those inverters are also tied to an AC input, then when “inverting” and creating their internal bond for output, they must isolate their output neutral from their input neutral while maintaining their EGC (ground) path back to the main service panel. Agreed?

Not exactly sure on that.
It seems the Victron Multiplus II does not separate in and out neutral (produces to the line, no galvanic separation):
Victron2.png

We had a good thread testing things out in an LVX-6048 real hybrid inverter where the AC in neutral had no connection to AC out neutral.

(but that unit I think is broken, so not exactly sure about the results)
 

eabyrd

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Not exactly sure on that.
It seems the Victron Multiplus II does not separate in and out neutral (produces to the line, no galvanic separation):
View attachment 64621

We had a good thread testing things out in an LVX-6048 real hybrid inverter where the AC in neutral had no connection to AC out neutral.

(but that unit I think is broken, so not exactly sure about the results)
That’s my unit on the LVX thread, and yeah it’s a wreck. I bought that on a false UL certclaim so the vendors gonna take care of me, but that unit was supposed to be grid tie ready, and it still appears to form an internal bond.

The Victron picture seems pretty clear that they isolate (switch) neutral and line What they don’t clearly show is the need for all of the earthing conductors to come to a single point before actually hitting earth
 
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Supervstech

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As a NEC licensed electrician, I can say this.
The setup in wills video is NOT installed in a residence… it is in a shop separate from his residence. Codes are different in this case. He can consider it to be a commercial building, or a shed, or a makeshift carport… as long as the system is not connected to the residential power supply, and he is not permanently connecting the panels anywhere, he is correct.

as for the potential for getting banned from this forum…

if you aren’t insulting members, posting affiliate links, or spamming the forum, you shouldn’t get banned, but if you make a lot of posts that get reported, or if you troll members topics, then a ban, or warning points that add up to a ban could happen.
 

Will Prowse

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Man.

Will.


You're wasting your time here lmao.
I really try to ignore posts like his, but this guy was spamming the channel and now the forum. At least I can respond to him in one thread here. I agree, probably not the best use of time. Wish I could have thought of a better way. You are right.
 

upnorthandpersonal

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Devil's advocate here: maybe he was just trying to get your attention to discuss the matter. You know how often grounding/earthing comes up and how many misconceptions there are, never mind the difference in doing things between e.g. the States and Europe. So it's not really hard to believe that the person in question genuinely didn't mean any harm by posting the comments. Now, having said that, I only have a limited sample of the comments in question, but in my day to day life I get bombarded by the same questions/arguments from the same customers through different media all the time. This can be annoying, granted, but it's usually not done in bad faith.
 

Gazoo

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I really try to ignore posts like his, but this guy was spamming the channel and now the forum. At least I can respond to him in one thread here. I agree, probably not the best use of time. Wish I could have thought of a better way. You are right.
I am glad you took the time to respond and remember others are viewing threads and might learn a thing or two. But a write up concerning grounding is an excellent idea. While I don't think the subject will ever be put completely to rest a write up would be super helpful. (y)
 

upnorthandpersonal

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There's quite a bit of info that @FilterGuy and others compiled:
 

enough

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You're wasting your time here lmao.
I really try to ignore posts like his, but this guy was spamming the channel and now the forum. At least I can respond to him in one thread here. I agree, probably not the best use of time. Wish I could have thought of a better way. You are right.
Now come on, we were making progress. As stated before, spamming is subjective but I would hope that people look at the youtube comment image at the top of the thread and decide for themselves. Surely a single thread on the forum is not spamming.

Edit to repeat my previous response to being accused of spamming: As the youtube channel owner, you can still see all my comments. Please post evidence where I posted the same comment 4 times (you can't). You and I both know that you are lying here and telling others in this thread that I was spamming so that you can justify banning me after the fact.

We've got (2) nearly resolved (https://diysolarforum.com/threads/b...nd-my-youtube-community-ban.28338/post-340318)


Back to Item (1) and the egc for solar panel frames....
On the bluetti and ecoflow delta pro, we have 150VDC connected with MC4 in the exact same fashion. Have you critiqued these companies design yet? Why do they not require a grounding conductor for the frames here? I agree that if you are doing a residential install, or to any form of structure, you need to ground the frames.
The installation manuals for these portable systems don't address panel grounding, but lets remember that they are always advertised using portable solar panels which do not have metal frames. Lets not refer to the inverter's installation manual but the panel's installation manuals. Metal frame panels would require an egc even when used with one of these portable inverters.
 
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Cheap 4-life

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If I were to do that, I could not power my tesla charger! This problem has been an issue in my videos in years past. And of course it is bonded in the inverter itself. And bonding at the inverter output is dangerous. And it is not stated to do so in the manual. What you are telling people to do here is dangerous. Do you not understand why we are bonding at the panel? You may have to bond 6+ inverters together. You cannot do it at the output. There is a separate terminal for a reason. If not, they would have had only two conductors and thats it. But we need to connect the cases of these units.
So your saying the output of the inverters neutral is bonded to ground inside the inverters used in the video and of course the main panel (that feeds the subpanel that the inverters are connected to) has it’s neutral bonded to ground. You said there’s a ground relay inside some inverters. I suppose that’s the reason there isn’t a ground loop. When the inverter is bypassing power from grid to the loads, the relay disconnects the outputs ground from neutral inside the inverter. Then there’s only the neutral ground bond coming from the main panel.
Is this correct?
Or the mpp doesn’t have an internal ground relay, but you won’t be using the inverters pass through capability?
 
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time2roll

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Are the panels going to reside in the driveway/patio indefinitely? I would be interested in seeing the project when it is completed.
 

enough

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Are the panels going to reside in the driveway/patio indefinitely? I would be interested in seeing the project when it is completed.
Yes (?) I can't speak for Will, but from the perspective of a viewer, the videos were framed as this is how to install this system and nothing else is needed. I did not see a mention of any future racking or grounding in the 'how to' video, the followup video on grounding, or the followup video where he talks about payback periods of 2-10 years. If this was not the final install, I would think that he would have added costs for panel racking in the video discussing the payback period.
 
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