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Breaker and GFCI/RCD on a short run?

krby

Solar Enthusiast
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SF Bay Area, CA
I'm going to have a portable box with a Victron Inverter/Charger connected to AC input and 24V LFE battery. For the AC output, I want to run a pair of lines, each to their own NEMA 5-15 socket (a standard US 120V outlet) and each with their own 15A breaker in line. This will all be inside the portable box, so maybe a wire length of no more than 4-5ft each (I bet it will actually be less). This will NOT be permanently tied into the house. Charging will be done by plugging into a standard outlet, the inverter output will be used by plugging in appliances to the NEMA 5-15 sockets.

My question is: Do I need GFCI/RCD devices (or integrated into the sockets) in addition to the breakers? If so, why?
 
If the outlets are grounded, fault current (a shock) can kill. If they are not grounded, there is no protection provided by the RCD...

It will happily electrocute anybody between hot and neutral.
 
I'm going to have a portable box with a Victron Inverter/Charger connected to AC input and 24V LFE battery. For the AC output, I want to run a pair of lines, each to their own NEMA 5-15 socket (a standard US 120V outlet) and each with their own 15A breaker in line. This will all be inside the portable box, so maybe a wire length of no more than 4-5ft each (I bet it will actually be less). This will NOT be permanently tied into the house. Charging will be done by plugging into a standard outlet, the inverter output will be used by plugging in appliances to the NEMA 5-15 sockets.

My question is: Do I need GFCI/RCD devices (or integrated into the sockets) in addition to the breakers? If so, why?
What will power the outlets? What inverter is there? How is it connected? Is it going to be neutral bonded to ground?
This is what an RCD protects against. Hot traveling through ground...
 
It's a Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger. This is my interpretation reading the Victron manual:
In my exact scenario (portable project in a plastic box) there are two scenarios for a load on the AC Output.
  • When AC-In is connected, Victron unit bonds ground of AC In to AC Out. I think this will be rare, but possible.
  • When AC-In is NOT connect, Victron unit bonds ground of AC out to the case of the Victron unit, which will be in an enclosed box.

I'm happy to do the right thing, I just want to understand more to know why I'm doing it and what I'm protecting against.
 
Ok, having done a bit more reading overnight, I think I'm just going to buy the regular duplex GFCI outlets and take up a little more room on the outside of my box. I'll have four outlets total, each duplex outlet on its own branch with its own circuit breaker.

I also found inline GFCI devices, but those all looked pretty big and one more thing inside the box. As another option, it looks like Blue Sea used to make 15A circuit breakers with a GFCI integrated, but those appear to be discontinued.
 
What appliances are you going to plug into the "NEMA 5-15 sockets" and where will they be? GFCI protection is not required because something is an appliance. Other things are considered.


You state you have a portable box, this is for a specific use? Back up power when the grid goes down? Could it ever be used somewhere else?

Can you give a me a link to the manual for your specific model Inverter charger? I would like to read about the bonding in the 2 different modes.

There are ground fault circuit breakers that fit into standard circuit breaker panels. You could get a 2 circuit panel that would accept the GFCI breakers and then wire to a standard duplex receptacle. You could even break off the tabs on the duplex receptacle and wire the 2 circuits to it.

What you have asked about is a very good ,and interesting question, "My question is: Do I need GFCI/RCD devices (or integrated into the sockets) in addition to the breakers? If so, why?" With more information I can give you my opinion on what may be required. You are getting in to gray areas of the NEC. Have to look at requirements and intents of the codes and what will be safe for you.

As solar generators are now available, and portable batteries with inverters too, what will be required by the NEC. Does it really matter how portable 120 volt power is generated. Gasoline, diesel, solar, storage batteries with inverters are doing the same thing, producing 120 volts are when grid power is not available or wanted.


Portable generators use
2014- 2020 NEC. 590.6(A) (3) All 125Volt or 125V/250V, 15A, 20A and 30A receptacles outlets that are part of a 15kw or less portable generator shall have.... GFCI protection. . This does get into gray areas of the NEC with new portable batteries and inverters, solar generators that can replace conventional gas generators. This code address the electrical output of something that is portable and generating 120 volts of electricity. It can be concluded that solar generators and a "portable box" are covered under this code.

Temporary power used by personal in construction, repair or similar actives, is also required to have GFCI.

GFIC's monitor the current on the neutral and hot wire. If it varies by more the 5ma the power coming out of th GFCI is shut off. On circuits that have GFCI protection, if someone were to grab the hot and neutral wires, the GFCI would NOT trip, as the current (amps) is still the same on the hot and neutral. Dropping a 2 wire extension cord into anything that is not grounded, such as a sink, that has plastic pipe running to it, an above ground pool, ect, again it will not trip the GFCI, as the current on the 2 conductors will continue to be the same. For a GFCI to trip some of the current must travel through a ground ( a ground fault). A neutral wire can have a ground fault too. So if the extension cord has a grounding conductor (3wire) or the water container is grounded in some way the GFCI will trip. This is one of the reasons pools need to have the water bonded to ground. A GFIC does not need to be grounded, to provide some protection. As there can be many ground fault paths. Such as copper plumbing, damp concert basement floors. metal HVAC duct work, metal gas pipes. ect. In the NEC there has been a provision for installing GFCI receptacles, on 2 wire wiring ( with no grounding conductor)in very old homes.
 
Thanks for the repy! Responses below
What appliances are you going to plug into the "NEMA 5-15 sockets" and where will they be? GFCI protection is not required because something is an appliance. Other things are considered.


You state you have a portable box, this is for a specific use? Back up power when the grid goes down? Could it ever be used somewhere else?
Primary use is backup power when the grid goes down. I plan to wheel the setup into the house and power one or maybe two appliances at a time. Examples (all are 120V)
* Put the box next to the fridge, plug the fridge into the box.
* Wife wants to dry her hair, unplug the fridge, wheel the box near the bathroom, plug the hair dryer and maybe one or two other things she uses into the box, when done, bring it back to the fridge. This is by far the biggest load, ~1500-1600VA measured with a Kill-A-Watt
* Maybe we decide to get fancy and want to watch TV or read something only so unplug the fridge, wheel the box to the living room, plug in the TV and related gear, like a phone charger or laptop charger.

Another use will be as a stand in for a gasoline generator while camping or doing some R/C plane flying in remote sites. The main appliances there would be the R/C charger (which can draw 1000W) or maybe phone/laptop chargers, or bluetooth speaker if we're getting really fancy.

Can you give a me a link to the manual for your specific model Inverter charger? I would like to read about the bonding in the 2 different modes.
Here you go: Victron Multiplus 24V 3000VA 120VAC

Thanks again for any help or advice.
 
In my opinion you should have GFCI on your setup. You will be using it just as one uses a gasoline generator when camping or out flying R/C planes. As I see it, 120 Volts from a gasoline generator is exactly the same as 120 Volt from an inverter and 24 Volt DC. There are GFCI requirements for portable generator. I am looking at the intent of the NEC code 590.6(A)(3) and in my opinion, in terms of electrical safety, your setup is just like a portable generator. In a house where most people would never use a gasoline generator, your portable power supply will be very handy. GFIC outlets are required in kitchens and bathrooms too. You will be moving it around, plugging in and unplugging things. Having GFCI will help reduce your risk of an electrical shock.

It can be argued that you are not generating electricity from and inverter and batteries, therefore 590.6(A)(3) does not apply. There is a point there, but I don't think 120 volt AC cares if it is from a generator or inverted from 24 volts DC. It has all the same potential, for good and bad, thus should be treated the same, in my opinion.

There is also:
590.6(A)(1) Receptacle Outlets Not Part of Permanent Wiring. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and that are in use by personnel shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Your 120 Volt power supply used in your house will not permanent wiring.

However I look at, you should have GFCI on your 120 volt AC portable power supply, for your personal safety.



I have started to study the manual. I do have a question for Victron. In the manual where there is info on the ground relay, it also brings up, "the correct operation of earth leakage circuit breakers". Sounds like the breakers has a Ground Fault Detector in it. Or as they say in other parts of the world RCD. A Ground Fault Detector can be set at any value. For personal protection it is around 5ma. An equipment GFD can be set at higher levels which the Victron charger/inverter may have. I will call Victron Tech support when I have some time. I always find talking to tech support interesting.

If you disagree with any thing I have said , or any of the logic that led to my conclusion, let me know.
 
Thanks for the detailed response. At this point I’m planning on just using two regular duplex GFCI outlets each one with its own 15A breaker and cable wired to the inverter. I could try and hunt for an in-line gfci device and have fewer external plugs, but these are easy to get locally and I’ve wired them up before.

I agree the code you quoted seems to cover this sort of device, but even if it didn’t adding GFCI devices seems like a good idea. If you want a local contact for your Victron question “Justin Laureltec” on this forum sells and supports them.
 
I have started to study the manual. I do have a question for Victron. In the manual where there is info on the ground relay, it also brings up, "the correct operation of earth leakage circuit breakers". Sounds like the breakers has a Ground Fault Detector in it. Or as they say in other parts of the world RCD. A Ground Fault Detector can be set at any value. For personal protection it is around 5ma. An equipment GFD can be set at higher levels which the Victron charger/inverter may have. I will call Victron Tech support when I have some time. I always find talking to tech support interesting.

If you disagree with any thing I have said , or any of the logic that led to my conclusion, let me know.
The Victron MultiPlus does not have an ELCI; the manual states "If an external AC supply is provided, the ground relay H will open before the input safety relay closes. This ensures the correct operation of an earth leakage circuit breaker that is connected to the output." IE, the MultiPlus's ground relay is designed to allow proper operation of any external GFCI or ELCI that is connected to the AC-out.
 
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