Buying a Sol-Ark 12k tomorrow

[ArthurEld]

It's going to take me a while to figure everything out.
Fun stuff

 

[Hedges]

"If you have AC coupled solar panels and a generator then you must use the TOU setting to prevent the generator from being called for during the daytime or else damage will occur. Simply uncheck the “charge” checkbox for time slots that may have PV production. v. If Off-Grid, connect the generator output to the “Grid” input in the Sol-Ark and select"

Probably because Sol-Ark can't prevent AC coupled inverters from backfeeding the generator. Sunny Island does this by disconnecting generator in that case. It can't regulate output from AC coupled inverters because frequency is determined by the generator. If inverters were insufficient for load & battery charging, it would request generator. Once power draw from generator dropped to zero and went negative, it would disconnect.

If you don't have generator, just Smart Load, should be fine.

Maybe a generator DC coupled (i.e. with battery charger) or connected through an inverter (like it was a wind turbine) would work more nicely with SMA and other systems, regardless of frequency stability or regulation.

 

[ArthurEld]

It is confusing as hell how the SolArk does so many widely different things using the same connection.
Load shedding sounds awesome so I will definitely try to use that.
If I had a generator connected it is probably possible to switch to load shedding if the generator goes down.
I don't know if I will ever want to connect a generator or micro inverters but I like to keep all options open.

 

[ArthurEld]

For reference, I looked into this for a while prior to buying the sol-ark. They will not send stuff to the USA because of their contracts with Sol-ark. If you ask for any technical documentation, they immediately say to go to sol-ark. I even tried using on of my vendors in China to buy them from Deye and then send to me and that route was not feasible.

Just to keep the record straight, Electric Car Parts Company is selling Deye's. I'm still getting a SolArk.

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DEYE Inverter UL Listed available in US

So for the past year or so I have research the Sol-Ark and it's relative, Sunsynk. From everything I read they are based on a class of DEYE inverters, essentially a rebranding with exclusive licensing since they are not sold/available in each other's countries. After many months of research and...

diysolarforum.com

 

[DIYSolarShed]

Here is a quick update on my experience installing a Sol-Ark 12K in the past few days:

Sol-Ark 12K plus Fortress 18.5K plus Solaria XT370 Semi-DIY Install

Hello all-- System Background: Over the past month or so, I received all of my parts. The key system components are as follows: Sol-Ark 12K Inverter and MPPT Fortress eVault 18.5K battery 8X Solaria XT370 Panels 20X Rich Solar 100W Premium Black Panels This was all installed by me, with help...

diysolarforum.com

 

[SuperShort]

I've found the Deye/US version available, shipped, for $2K on Alibaba. However, they state neither they nor Deye will provide warranty support.

W-8 Deye 10kw Hybrid Us Ongrid 8kw Solar Inverter Home Mppt Sun-8k-sg01lp1 Inversor For Sale - Buy Deye Hybrid Inverter,Deye Inverter,Sun-8k-sg01lp1-us Product on Alibaba.com

W-8 Deye 10kw Hybrid Us Ongrid 8kw Solar Inverter Home Mppt Sun-8k-sg01lp1 Inversor For Sale - Buy Deye Hybrid Inverter,Deye Inverter,Sun-8k-sg01lp1-us Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

I assume that also means ordering any parts. With shipping from electriccarparts, I believe this just just about half the price.
I recall seeing some people say they've had dead components out of the box which would make this a no-go route.

Edit: On second thought, I guess you could make sure it was working out of the box within return window.
I'm not sure the other sources in the US for this model are actually authorized either. Any thoughts on this route for ordering?

 

[The New JC777]

Where did you learn of Deye being dead out of the box?
Shipping terms are the key to actually paying what you were quoted. Insist on DDP or you will have to pay big taxes and fees when it arrives in the US.

 

[SuperShort]

I read on another forum there was a bad board on arrival. $2K was with shipping and DDP.

 

[ArthurEld]

That's if you only want the micro inverters for grid tie net metering, but not available while off-grid.

Would Enphase IQ8 make power available when the grid is down?

 

[Hedges]

Would Enphase IQ8 make power available when the grid is down?

Of course it can't without disconnecting from the grid.
Since IQ8 is a micro inverter and a system has many, the IQ8 by itself can't contain the disconnect switch.
It would require an external disconnect switch.
Enphase marketing fluff or press releases don't seem to mention that

Enphase IQ8 microinverter to operate when the grid is down - AC Solar Warehouse

The IQ8 will supply electricity when the sun is shining even during a loss of electricity supply from the grid or simply when there is no grid at all.

www.acsolarwarehouse.com

Another article mentions Enphase Battery

Enphase teases Ensemble, IQ 8 release

Enphase released a video detailing the company's new "grid-agnostic" Ensemble system, which it says will be released in select North American cities

www.solarpowerworldonline.com

It is just a grid-tied inverter, and if you create an island grid then it can deliver power to it

Enphase IQ8

The Enphase IQ8 microinverter and any HYBRID inverter/charger will change the world. If you can get a battery to store the energy from the sun to give you enough energy for let's just say 48 hours, you will never need the grid again, and you can live as you live on the grid. What I mean is the...

diysolarforum.com

Probably it responds to frequency shift by reducing power. The links I've clicked through so far just say it provide power while grid down, but doesn't explain how the system works. It looks like a battery is also required. They show a small system for critical backups or more backup, just with boxes and no description of what those boxes are.

Enphase Storage = Energy Security + Energy Freedom

Ensemble is Enphase’s latest technology which makes a solar+storage system “grid-agnostic”, it works regardless of the utility grid’s working status and makes you energy independent and secure.

enphase.com

I doubt it offers batteryless off-grid power. Single units can do that because they can decide what timing they want for AC output, for instance Sunny Boy providing 2000W 120V "secure power" direct from PV.
For microinverters to do the same, all would have to come up together, synchronized during black start.

IQ8, like any AC coupled grid-tie inverter, ought to be able to work downstream of SolArk delivering additional power through its relay to the grid, also when disconnected from the grid.
Any GT inverter that responds to frequency shift should work more nicely. Without that, if PV production exceeds loads plus battery charge current, it will immediately be knocked off line.

The latest "Rule 21" or "UL 1741SA" compatible models are required to stay on line for 5 minutes with up to 2 Hz higher line frequency.
If they do not implement power reduction at increased frequency, the battery inverter will just keep increasing frequency until they are knocked off.
If they do implement power reduction, then frequency should hover somewhere below 62 Hz with power production perfectly matched to load.

What I haven't read is if "Rule 21" or "UL 1741SA" permits inverters that implement power reduction vs. frequency to remain on-line indefinitely. (I think the answer is "no" for current rules.)
All I have read is must stay on-line 299 seconds, must drop off by 300 seconds. If that is done even with power reduction, then inverter will carry the load 5 minutes, go off-line 5 minutes and battery carries load. Then reconnect to recharge battery and repeat.

Only a GT inverter that remains on-line indefinitely between 61 Hz and 62 Hz would play nice. SMA Sunny Boy does that if configured "island" (off-grid), or "backup" which relies on communication to switch between "UL1741" on-grid and "island".

Maybe other "Rule 21" or "UL 1741SA" do the same. I'd like to know.

One Draft spec appears to allow indefinitely long ride-through for Frequency-Watt if frequency is between 60.5 and 61 Hz

https://ipcgrid.ece.msstate.edu/presentations/2018/Sun_2018%20R21%20%20IEEE-1547%20Update%203%2028%2018.pdf

 

[ArthurEld]

Well that sure isn't as simple as I hoped. Thanks Hedges.

 

[Hedges]

We need to hear from someone who has Enphase micro inverters on a Skybox or similar.
With battery full charged, PV array capable of 6kW but loads only drawing 3kW so power is curtailed.
Does Enphase deliver 3kW continuously? Or does it drop offline every 5 minutes as required by code?

Maybe @GXMnow can tell us.

​

I went with all SMA because it was suppose to work.
Found my existing SWR2500U weren't compatible.
Bought 10000TLUS because it was documented as compatible. I discovered it wasn't, SMA concurred but gave a work-around that is satisfactory.

 

[Hedges]

We need to hear from someone who has Enphase micro inverters on a Skybox or similar.
With battery full charged, PV array capable of 6kW but loads only drawing 3kW so power is curtailed.
Does Enphase deliver 3kW continuously? Or does it drop offline every 5 minutes as required by code?

Maybe @GXMnow can tell us.

​

I went with all SMA because it was suppose to work.
Found my existing SWR2500U weren't compatible.
Bought 10000TLUS because it was documented as compatible. I discovered it wasn't, SMA concurred but gave a work-around that is satisfactory.

Or @Ampster , think you also have Enphase performing frequency-watts.
Will it deliver a portion of full PV power all day long? Or does it disconnect after 5 minutes, as I think the grid-tie codes require?
If so, that would cycle batteries every few minutes, recharging while Enphase is on-line, discharging each time they drop off.

 

[Ampster]

Or @Ampster , think you also have Enphase performing frequency-watts.
Will it deliver a portion of full PV power all day long? Or does it disconnect after 5 minutes, as I think the grid-tie codes require?
If so, that would cycle batteries every few minutes, recharging while Enphase is on-line, discharging each time they drop off.

90 per cent of the time my system is grid tied so any solar is sold to the grid instead of being curtailed. My micros and my GT SolarEdge are AC coupled to my Skybox so that in a grid down situation I can use that power to charge my batteries.
My understanding of how that works when I would be off grid is that when my batteries are full and my house load is low solar would be curtailed. I think the first solar that would be curtailed would be the solar DC coupled to the Skybox, because that can be instantaneous like any off grid solar installation adjusting to loads. Then I presume the Skybox would shift frequency to begin to modulate the AC coupled generation to match the loads. The inverter is programmed for Rule 21 so it must be able to calculate how long it will take to ramp down the AC coupled solar and the only place for that power to go is to the batteries. Therefore it can only do that if there is still some capacity left in the batteries. If the batteries are full there is no reserve and I would presume it would curtail the AC coupled first and modulate the DC coupled solar which can react faster to changes in loads.

I am not sure I answered the question about my Enphase "performing frequency-watts"? They are IQ7s so they are capable of responding to frequency-watt signals/triggers when the Skybox changes the frequency.

Also I am not sure that the codes require my micros to disconnect every 5 minutes. My understanding of that algorithm which I think is called ride through is that it is designed so that all the GT inverters in California do not drop off at the same time and shock the system if there is a sudden frequency shift on the grid.
This stuff is complicated and it may be more productive to discuss bite size pieces of it. I will reread the thread from post #50 when it began. I think what the IQ8s do may be confusing because they work with the similarly named IQ8 battery/inverters but use the same frequency-watt concepts. I do not know in that case where the islanding occurs but my guess it would be in the battery/inverter module.

 

[Hedges]

I understand the various codes as requiring ride through for 299 seconds, and requiring disconnect by 300 second. This would occur between 60.5 Hz and 62 Hz.

A draft future code indicates it would be allowed to not disconnect at 300 seconds (or ever) for frequency between 60.5 Hz and 61 Hz. Not adopted yet.

So I see this as saying all "Rule 21" or "UL 1741SA" or whatever compliant inverters, when used with frequency-watts curtailment of output on a battery inverter, would always disconnect after 5 minutes, reconnect later, and repeat.

That would be less than perfectly clean and elegant for off-grid or backup systems. A mechanism to defeat it is desirable when disconnected from grid. When vendors tell us how well these things work, I suspect they're just marketing hardware.

Maybe if you disconnect DC coupled PV and grid, and provide AC loads less than PV production, you could observe whether PV runs continuously or periodically disconnects.

It is my guess that Enphase uses communication to prevent that when running with their battery. But it is also possible they just let it cycle.

 

[Ampster]

So I see this as saying all "Rule 21" or "UL 1741SA" or whatever compliant inverters, when used with frequency-watts curtailment of output on a battery inverter, would always disconnect after 5 minutes, reconnect later, and repeat.

That would be less than perfectly clean and elegant for off-grid or backup systems. A mechanism to defeat it is desirable when disconnected from grid. When vendors tell us how well these things work, I suspect they're just marketing hardware.

If I look at this from the standpoint of protecting the grid I can see that happening and similarly when the grid frequency stabilizes that all of the GT inverters should come up somewhat randomly to avoid shocking the grid.

In the case of a single battery inverter trying to control the output of AC coupled inverters I see the frequency shifts being less dramatic than the above grid protection mode. That scenerio would essentially be a micro grid with a buffer. The elements are load and generation. The battery could be a generation source or a load and the inverter would manage that transition. I would guess that the battery inverter would try to keep those in balance. The battery reserve could be large enough that it can handle the various loads without having to curtail solar drastically. In those situations I would not expect the AC coupled inverters to disconnect at all. I can see them ramping down and ramping up as the loads change.
If the battery inverter were fully charged then I can see curtailing solar to discharge the battery to create a reserve.

 

[HighTechLab]

We are about ready to get our solar moved over! It's been long enough since we installed the inverter I guess. Things will actually be easier than I thought, good thing we built our array somewhat symmetrical.

 

[mrdavvv]

Growatt can't backfeed unlike sol ark. So if your batteries are full you can get paid from utility company. Sol ark can send solar power to the main panel while wired up to sub panel by the way as Grid power hook up is bidirectional. Sol ark has ct sensors which can match in coming power from the meter to cancel out or less then but never greater then meaning you don't need a net meter Agreement with your eletrical company and they will never know unless tipped off. Growat inverter can't do this .

Yeah, main reason of why i went with the solark, and there is not a lof of hybrids all in one that have UL1741

 

[Gubbool]

At this point, I got the unit powered up with one of those LEAF battery packs from Bigbattery, but certainly not what I plan to run the unit on!!! The BMS tripped out on too high of a current 3 times while trying to charge the caps in the sol-ark...Let alone that it's way undersized for running any sort of power levels that the sol-ark is capable of.

Either way, got the unit powered up and tested, because I wanted to make sure that before I went and shut everything down and took out a perfectly good inverter, that I was covered and the installation would go flawlessly. After digging through the manual for a bit, I found a few great takeaways:

1. The new version of the 12k is designed to be outdoor rated, but not yet approved as 3R, which means an inspector could write you up for using a unit that is indoor rated outdoors, but in the manual it says clearly that the approval for outdoor rating is pending and that using the unit outdoors would not void the manufacturers warranty.
2. I am obviously in an off-grid situation, with a 14KW generator. In the manual, they say if your generator is larger than 10KW, and you are in an off-grid application, to use the "GRID" terminals for the generator. My concern here was that the generator support mode wouldn't work, which in fact it does. All you need to do here is use the CT's provided with the unit on the generator power feed...The Sol-Ark treats the generator as "GRID" and conveniently the sol-ark can do GRID SUPPORT PEAK SHAVING!!! The more I read about this thing the more excited I am to become a dealer for Sol-ark some time in the future....Hopefully things can fall into place.
3. At idle, the panel on the unit was showing .5 amps draw on the battery, or approximately 30 watts, which is around 1/2 of their spec'd idle draw. After using a clamp meter, I got a bit over an amp, so I will need to do further testing once the unit is installed to determine the accuracy of the sensors within the unit.

I am already planning to have amperage-reading current transformers on both the output of the Sol-ark and on the power going from my generator to the sol-ark...So with that combined with my battery voltage reading and shunts on the input, I can accurately use my PLC system to compare the specified efficiency of the unit to the actual values. My PLC is highly accurate even at low amperage readings...I trust it far more than a clamp meter.

More to come soon.

I watched your video recently, before I discovered this thread. Thanks for sharing the information, I learned some stuff from it. Just wanted to say thanks for helping ramp-up. Crap… the things that I just don’t know.

 

[Bluedog225]

Subscribed. Great info. Thanks!