Cadmium panels

[Will Prowse]

I don't see the benefit here. And the potential benefits don't seem worth it either.

I am trying to figure out why this channel and others always try to promote experimental or low volume solar tech that really doesn't help anyone. Why not cover the benefits of large volume silicon panels? Maybe they are less exciting because the manufacturing methods are maturing, but there's lots of reasons we use silicon. It offers best performance, life and price compared to the other options available.

Am I missing something? These solar YouTube channels confuse me. Why not cover what works best at the best price and being manufactured at large numbers?

 

[Will Prowse]

Perhaps new companies that are looking to go public use these YouTube channels to push their new tech.

 

[wpns]

Clickbait. No-one is going to click on ‘1% improvement in solar panel efficiency’ or ‘costs drop by one whole cent per watt’ but ‘new technology poised to take over the world!’ Is a much better bet if you don’t care about the details.

 

[AntronX]

Dude makes a living making clickbaity youtube videos. 'Nuff said.

 

[timselectric]

I don't see it as pushing the product. I don't think that most of them are even available. It's just information about what products are in the works. And may be available in the future.
Some of his stuff I find interesting, and some I don't.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Some are undecided while others decide to cut shit apart with an oscillating tool to see what's inside. I prefer the destruction to the google search "new technologies" method.

 

[AntronX]

We now have 23 - 24% efficient 700W silicon solar panels that cost $0.08/watt to make but somehow end up costing $0.35 - $0.45/watt to buy while manufacturers are shutting down production lines due to weak demand. Maybe work on improving distribution chain cost efficiency? There would be a lot more demand if we could buy them for $0.15/watt.

 

[SparkyJJO]

We now have 23 - 24% efficient 700W silicon solar panels that cost $0.08/watt to make but somehow end up costing $0.35 - $0.45/watt to buy while manufacturers are shutting down production lines due to weak demand. Maybe work on improving distribution chain cost efficiency? There would be a lot more demand if we could buy them for $0.15/watt.

One problem is a large panel of anything isn't going to be cheap to transport simply due to its size. Takes a lot of room in that truck, shipping container, etc.

 

[billt1827]

Now he's pushing cadmium solar panels. I don't see the benefit here. And the potential benefits don't seem worth it either.

I am trying to figure out why this channel and others always try to promote experimental or low volume solar tech that really doesn't help anyone. Why not cover the benefits of large volume silicon panels?

He claims that those panels have 20% of the US market, so it's not that small (although it's not clear how that has been measured, so it could be misleading).

It's interesting to find that there are potential alternatives to silicon panels being developed.

A few weeks ago I learnt that a distant relative was researching the use of bismuth in solar panels. I assumed that it was a dopant in silicon, but it seems that bismuth compounds are being researched as another potential thin film material for solar panels.

In theory thin film panels have potential advantages over silicon panels. They use less material and should be simpler and cheaper to manufacture, so might replace silicon in the long term.

In my youth cadmium sulphide was used in light meters, so it's not that new.

 

[AntronX]

One problem is a large panel of anything isn't going to be cheap to transport

Domestic freight costs about $500 per pallet for 24 kW or $0.02/watt. Ocean freight by container $3k for 475kW or $0.006/w. The rest is fluff like import taxes, port fees, distributor and retail markup.

 

[TM48]

Ummm.....Cadmium doesn't sound to eco friendly. It might come to market at 15 cents per watt but cost a $ per watt to dispose of it.

 

[wpns]

He claims that those panels have 20% of the US market, so it's not that small (although it's not clear how that has been measured, so it could be misleading).

Go figure:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/cadmium-telluride

A quick check on Google says less efficient and 46 cents per watt, so "yawn".
I've been seeing "the latest and greatest solar panel revolution" a couple of times a year for the last 50 years, so I'm a bit jaded.

IMHO the great breakthroughs that made modern solar (and this forum) possible were:
Silicon solar panels at under a buck a watt.
LFP batteries
AIO and other inverters using the demonized HF technology (derived from switching power supplies that really took off in the mid-70s) with corresponding price reductions.

But those aren't 'sexy' any more, we want 'thin film so cheap you can paint it on' and 'solid state' (or iron, or aluminum or sodium or ...) batteries. Yup, same as it ever was since the mid-70s. Yawn. LMK when I can buy it on Amazon. Not that I'll buy it from Amazon, I'll buy it from an established company equivalent to EG4/SS, but you get the idea. Everything else is clickbait, and #LifesTooShort

 

[TM48]

"the latest and greatest solar panel revolution"

Yeah only exceeded by "fusion is 10 years away"

 

[HarryN]

CdTe panels were a big deal for a while. Pretty easy to make in high volume on modest quality glass.

There was a company near Toledo, OH developing them long before Si panels were economical.

That part of NW OH / S MI has a lot of experience with very high volume glass and glass coatings, so it made sense to them.

They had worked out a very solid recycle plan for the raw materials. Same concept as starter batteries. No one wants lead in the environment, but the recycle rate for lead based batteries is so high that it is a non issue.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

One problem is a large panel of anything isn't going to be cheap to transport simply due to its size. Takes a lot of room in that truck, shipping container, etc.

For the greater part, you pay for the cubic space. Since panels aren't generally shipped or sold in onesie, twosie, shipping in bulk isn't a large part of cost. My last order of 650w panels were portrait oriented at 31 pcs. per pallet.
I did interrogate SanTan solar over this some time back. I wanted to know the maximum number of panels they could put on a pallet and if it would change my shipping rates. They hem hawed around and never gave me a straight answer. Seemed there was some profit margin calculated into their shipping costs.

 

[caki]

I'm surprised at how narrow minded you guys are being on this thread. It sounds to me that you found the best solution to your problem and now you think this should be the best solution to everybody problem. CdTe panels have lots of advantages for large scale solar that are hard to beat, so they are used mainly in large scale solar farms and are very successful on that. They seem to be the best solution for solar farms.
While Cadmiun can be dangerous, First Solar offer free recycling https://www.firstsolar.com/en/Global/Archive/Home/Modules/Recycling
The other downside of lower efficiency is countered by using a little larger area.
Here is a good summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_telluride_photovoltaics

 

[TM48]

This is after all a DIY solar forum not a commercial solar forum.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

I'm surprised at how narrow minded you guys are being on this thread

Skepticism is a duty when any part of this is taxpayer funded. Not to mention there is likely more combined knowledge about photovoltaics in this forum than in the USDoE.

 

[Will Prowse]

I'm surprised at how narrow minded you guys are being on this thread. It sounds to me that you found the best solution to your problem and now you think this should be the best solution to everybody problem. CdTe panels have lots of advantages for large scale solar that are hard to beat, so they are used mainly in large scale solar farms and are very successful on that. They seem to be the best solution for solar farms.
While Cadmiun can be dangerous, First Solar offer free recycling https://www.firstsolar.com/en/Global/Archive/Home/Modules/Recycling
The other downside of lower efficiency is countered by using a little larger area.
Here is a good summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_telluride_photovoltaics

Great comment. Looking for comments that prove my current beliefs about these panels as being incorrect. Do you know the largest solar farm using them? I really wonder if silicon has competition here.

 

[caki]

Great comment. Looking for comments that prove my current beliefs about these panels as being incorrect. Do you know the largest solar farm using them? I really wonder if silicon has competition here.

That's the right attitude! Being open minded means looking for things that contradict our beliefs so you can in the end find the truth. Keep the good work!
The only solar farm that I'm aware is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topaz_Solar_Farm
What I keep on hearing is that the have a backlog of orders for years, so I believe that they don't have even more solar farms because they can't produce enough panels for all the customers:

First Solar US thin-film modules sold through 2026, backlog passes 70GW

Thin-film module manufacturer First Solar has reached a module backlog of 71.6GW and sold all its allocated US capacity through 2026.

www.pv-tech.org

 

[cs1234]

Yeah only exceeded by "fusion is 10 years away"

I've been seeing "the latest and greatest solar panel revolution" a couple of times a year for the last 50 years, so I'm a bit jaded.

Don't forget all those revolutionary batteries that charge up instantly, never wear out and are super small and lightweight. Perfectly safe also!

 

[caki]

Skepticism is a duty when any part of this is taxpayer funded. Not to mention there is likely more combined knowledge about photovoltaics in this forum than in the USDoE.

I guess you gave the a perfect contrast between a narrow mind answer (this) and an open minded comment from Will.
While this community is fantastic and hold a lot of practical knowledge, I have spent a lot of time reading the papers coming out of the NREL and using their tools, like pvwatts or Solarapp. They are great and cover areas that this community has no interest in or funding for it so for me they are complimentary and feed on each other instead of competing.

 

[cs1234]

The more things we can make stuff out of the better. Always nice to have an alternate method of manufacturing.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

I guess you gave the a perfect contrast between a narrow mind answer (this) and an open minded comment from Will.
While this community is fantastic and hold a lot of practical knowledge, I have spent a lot of time reading the papers coming out of the NREL and using their tools, like pvwatts or Solarapp. They are great and cover areas that this community has no interest in or funding for it so for me they are complimentary and feed on each other instead of competing.

Glad I could help. This is a safe space with puppies for all.

 

[AntronX]

First Solar Series 7 TR CdTe module specs:
540w 19.3% efficiency, $0.316/watt avg. sale price
188Vmp 2.86Amp, 228Voc
2.3m x 1.22m, 2.8m², 39.7kg, 30 year life
2024 sales volume: 15.6GW to 16.3GW
Made in USA