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CALB grey batteries are not cheap in comparison, are they worth it?

BlitzSSS

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Sep 11, 2020
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Hey all

What's everyone opinions on the CALB grey cells? I'm wanting to buy more for a different battery pack and these CALB cells are actually quite expensive (and bulky in size) compared to the blue aluminium cased prismatic cells.

Is there any benifit to the CALB cells to justify their bulk, is their price simply because they are a 'premium' or trusted manufacturer of quality cells.

Thanks
 
Hello

Calb cells have a stable polyamide case and large contacts with threads in big diameter. You pay for the better mechanics.
 
Will mentioned in one of the videos that the price had gone up significantly since he started doing videos on them. DIY is a niche, but once you develop a strong YouTube following you start outstripping the supply chain. I would’ve never thought to build my own battery with parts ordered from China, but this site makes those type of things possible.
 
If we are talking about the clear/white market, I'm not sure CALB cells are any more expensive than anything else. A quick peak at a US distributor shows Fortune = ~$1.24 per Ah, CALB = $1.28 per Ah

As has been mentioned already, the physical robustness of the casing and terminals is part of what you pay for, as is the factory testing and test report, tight tolerances, and 2 year warranty and official support if you buy from a US based distributor.

Another factor is you can actually buy these cells retail, this is not the case with most of the blue aluminums (with a few exceptions like Fortune/Frey and CALB CAM) where as far as I can discern, the only time they enter the retail market is factory seconds, B grade, overstock, or cells being sold out the back door of the factory so to speak.


What follows is speculative and anecdotal:
One more anecdotal observation (that may be generally true or may not be), my observation has been that the grey market for CALB cells seems to be meaningfully less sketchy, it seems they have somewhat tighter control on their supply chain. Now it is still a grey market, and there is still risk, and due diligence and researching and buying from reputable sellers. But reports of B grade or worse cells, or cells with identifying marks or QR codes removed seem to be much fewer than with blue aluminum's where quality varies wildly and information is scant.

One possible reason is because CALB (and other recognizable nylon cased cell manufacturers) has an incentive to try to keep their reject grade cells out of the market as they are easily identified as being CALB cells and could hurt their reputation, whereas with blue aluminum cells, they are more of a commodity and harder to distinguish, and once the QR on a blue aluminum is removed (or even if it isn't) 99% of people will not be able to identify the manufacturer and the manufacturer will have plausible deniability so there reputation is not as threatened.

One of the forum admins recently made a large CALB purchase, his test batch of cells all tested within 0.2Ah of eachother, and substantially over rated capacity (which is the norm for CALB cells).


I do want to reiterate and underscore, the above is my anecdotal impression based on what I have observed. And the nature of anecdotal impressions is they are limited and thus vulnerable to being inaccurate. I do not own and have not bought CALB cells. The above is based on my own research and what I have observed and learned from forum members, info from resellers and distributors, and various other sources.
 
Cells with thick casing like the CALBs might be a better option if there is vibration involved, ie vehicle installation. Looking elsewhere on the forum the metal case of the blue sleeved cells is connected to one of the terminals. All that stands between the shells of two adjacent cells is a thin layer of heat shrink wrap and the air gap (if there even is a gap between cells).
 
Aluminum cased cells have excellent energy density per unit volume. They require care from the installer to properly protect from shorting, impact, etc. You can't just slide them across a concrete floor, and smack them together without care. Same goes for the smaller terminals.

The plastic cased cells, CALB especially, are more resistant to physical abuse, and require nothing more than secure clamping/strapping, even in mobile applications. They are lower energy density, which is not ideal for large mobile packs.
 
Aluminum cased cells have excellent energy density per unit volume. They require care from the installer to properly protect from shorting, impact, etc. You can't just slide them across a concrete floor, and smack them together without care. Same goes for the smaller terminals.

The plastic cased cells, CALB especially, are more resistant to physical abuse, and require nothing more than secure clamping/strapping, even in mobile applications. They are lower energy density, which is not ideal for large mobile packs.

Best short overview yet!

I would add, when I looked into it, Frey/Fortune fell somewhere in between. Pretty robust as far as aluminum cells go but still in need of external protection and securing, denser than plastic cased cells but less dense than commodity high capacity blue aluminum prismatics. Each cell type has its place and its niche I think.

Its also worth noting, CALB makes both plastic cased (CA series and SE series) and Aluminum cased (CAM series) cells.
 
We won’t know for another 8 years or so, it’s too early to say if the 280ah cells are good value. Not much good being half the price if they last 1/3 as long.

CALB have proven they will last over a decade (and counting) in a residential off grid environment. You pay for that, or you take your chances.

It is rarely mentioned that there are vastly different chemistries and construction techniques used in the “LiFePO4” range.
 
Sure, there is lots of stuff in between. In general smaller cells are more robust. Just the fact of less weight and surface area. Some makers use thicker aluminum for the shells as you indicate.

The stuff inside the aluminum cased cells isn't significantly different than the plastic ones. Its still a LFP laminate, either spiral wound, flip/flop stacked, etc. The big manufactures have cells on a test bed running 1C charge/discharge cycles for days at at time. Often at elevated temps to simulate years of abuse. While I don't take their cycle life specs as cannon, I would expect them to perform at a high percentage of that. In may view, if EVs (including buses and personal cars) are using aluminum prismatics with success, then our low C applications are very unlikely to have bad results long term. In the end, we are likely to see more packs age out due to calendar capacity loss than anything cycle related at this point.
 
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The info in this thread is fantastic and largely jives with the anecdotal knowledge I’ve collected about grey CALB cells.

Personally, I think CALB cells are better suited for stationary applications because of the lower storage density. Fortune cells perform well and are more dense, but require a bit better casing to keep things in ship shape.

I own 16 grey 100Ah CALB cells, but they haven’t been in service long enough to say they last the rated cycle lifetime. They are CN region sicker which does not match this region, so no warranty for this set. Even without warranty, I feel more confident with a tested brand than a white label blue aluminum cell, but time will test out that feeling.
 
We won’t know for another 8 years or so, it’s too early to say if the 280ah cells are good value. Not much good being half the price if they last 1/3 as long.

CALB have proven they will last over a decade (and counting) in a residential off grid environment. You pay for that, or you take your chances.

It is rarely mentioned that there are vastly different chemistries and construction techniques used in the “LiFePO4” range.
I agree with this, its a good point--one that isn't always received kindly here--but definitely worth remaining cognizant of.

The big manufactures have cells on a test bed running 1C charge/discharge cycles for days at at time. Often at elevated temps to simulate years of abuse. While I don't take their cycle life specs as cannon, I would expect them to perform at a high percentage of that. In may view, if EVs (including buses and personal cars) are using aluminum prismatics with success, then our low C applications are very unlikely to have bad results long term. In the end, we are likely to see more packs age out due to calendar capacity loss than anything cycle related at this point.
This is a valid point as well. But I am also conscious that with many of the large aluminum cell manufacturers, they do not officially sell retail (directly or indirectly through distributors) the cells we have access to or the cells at price points we consider are specifically the cells or models or batches that the large EV and energy storage manufacturers passed up, and are being sold at a discount through unofficial channels for unknown reasons.

I'm very conscious of how little we really know about these cells, their history, or their quality over the long term. I do think the additional risk is priced in with many of the grey market cells, but its something people too often ignore or downplay without a factual basis for doing so.

I'm not an advocate of one type of cell over the other, I am an advocate of informed and risk aware decision making, and matching your design/purchases to your application and goals. (somewhere mid way through this comment my thoughts and focus began to wander.. apologies :rolleyes:)
 
The only difference I have noticed between chemistry used is with the Valence batteries and the Winston cells. Valence adds magnesium to the cylindrical cells in their batteries and Winston adds yttrium to their cells. I am not a chemist so I would like to know more about the vastly different chemistries.

From what I gather EVE was established in 2001. The question could be what would cause a grey market EVE cell to fail prematurely or not last it's expected lifetime as opposed to buying the cell directly from EVE. If a grey market EVE cell tests good when received by the buyer then what could possibly go wrong providing the cell is not abused?
 
The only difference I have noticed between chemistry used is with the Valence batteries and the Winston cells. Valence adds magnesium to the cylindrical cells in their batteries and Winston adds yttrium to their cells. I am not a chemist so I would like to know more about the vastly different chemistries.

From what I gather EVE was established in 2001. The question could be what would cause a grey market EVE cell to fail prematurely or not last it's expected lifetime as opposed to buying the cell directly from EVE. If a grey market EVE cell tests good when received by the buyer then what could possibly go wrong providing the cell is not abused?

Speaking generally, not specific to EVE or even specific to lifepo4 or batteries, there are many problems that don't necessarily show up until large numbers of people are using something over the long term in real world conditions. At that point correlations can begin to be drawn and potential defects, weaknesses, or underlying issues can be identified, and theoretical assumptions can be reassessed. Vehicle recalls would be a common example of this.

Add to this, the very limited amount of info available to us about grey market cells and why they are in the grey market in the first place, and why they can be bought and sold for pennies on the dollar. Its possible the resellers know the reason for the discount, its possible they do not, in either case they do not seem eager or willing to educate us on this aspect of the industry (with the exception of Seplos, who has put out some great and helpful content).

One thing I would point out about testing, neither us nor the resellers are equipped to do any extensive amount of testing, so while initial testing does provide some peace of mind and rough validation of quality, I wouldn't assign too much importance to the rudimentary tests we are capable of (or my own limited ability to interpret the results).

If I were to guess, I would imagine for basic, stationary, low c-rate, energy storage applications, if a cell initially meets your needs and tests out fine, it seems highly likely that it will continue to perform well for the life of the cell. The biggest unknown I see in this scenario is cycle life, but for the price that is probably an acceptable risk, and with conservative settings you might well exceed cycle life numbers, but that remains to be seen.

However, I do see many more potential for issues over the long term for marine or vehicle based systems or other more intensive applications. Mechanical stressors or any number of other stressors could--i imagine--lead to many different forms of failure or degradation over time. One and Two hundred Ah plastic cells are well proven in this capacity, I am not aware if any of the large form factor aluminum cells are, smaller terminals, weaker sidewalls, among other things known or unknown do present additional vulnerabilities (though properly clamping/securing should mitigate some of these points).

My perspective (as I'm sure you are well aware of by now :)) is stubbornly (arguably overly) cautious and skeptical--when I first joined the forum that was the norm (and I think still is off site), that culture has shifted somewhat over the last half year or so. I am quite conscious of how much is unknown and of my (and our collective) ignorance/naivety when it comes to this market, these cells, and the chemical and technical intricacies. We are learning more and more everyday, and our collective experience and knowledge and insight is growing, which is awesome, but still, I think there is much more that we don't know than we do know. My personal caution comes from my awareness of my personal level of ignorance :)

CALB, WInston, and their cousins for a few advantages in this respect, DIYers have been using them for many years, and they have been thoroughly tested by real people in the real world, including in some pretty harsh conditions. So there is a depth of knowledge and experience (not so much on this site, but elsewhere, for these cells that does not yet exist for the blue aluminum's generally speaking--as an aside, there will be substantial depth of knowledge with the EVE 280's a few years from now considering how many people have bought them in the past 6 months and are putting them into service in all sorts of different systems). Second, they have relatively transparent (to us) supply chains from manufacturer through to consumer, which in my eyes removes a lot of uncertainty if you buy through those channels.

That said, the plastic cells (or higher quality aluminum cells like Frey/Fortune) do cost considerably more, than commodity grey market cells. So I wouldn't necessarily say one or the other is a better choice, just that they have different strengths and weaknesses and the cost benefit calculation will depend to a great degree on the conditions and goals you are building for. If price was equal, I would choose CALB CA180 series or Frey 110Ah, since price is not equal, blue aluminum commodity cells look pretty damn attractive even considering the unknowns and the risks.
 
Hello

CALB prints his name on every cell. There is no other manufacturer on the market who does that.

I can be shure to get the cells i want. There is no information that i know, that these cells have been copied, like a fake Rolex.

That is important for those who live outside the US and have no access to a national distribuor, like me.
 
Hello

There is no source for me to buy Sinopoly cells in europe.
Is this a manufacturer or only an american distributor who stamps his brand on imported cells to confirm his specifications?
 
It’s how these cells come from the Sinopoly factory. Point being you shouldn’t make blanket statements!
 

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Hello

There is no source for me to buy Sinopoly cells in europe.
Is this a manufacturer or only an american distributor who stamps his brand on imported cells to confirm his specifications?

I believe one of most widely available of the plastic cased cells in Europe are Winston Thundersky (yellow ribbed plastic cells very similar in appearance to Sinopoly and the Blue CALB cells).

Sinopoly is a brand of prismatic cells (recognizable by their ribbed black plastic casing)

Have a look at this thread

My vague understanding is that the four major nylon cased prismatic brands CALB, Winston, Sinopoly, GBS are independent manufacturers but cousins in a sense, all born from a common parent 'Thundersky' which apparently broke up back around 2007. You will still sometimes see the Thundersky brand name attached to Winston (as in 'Winston-Thundersky')
 
It’s how these cells come from the Sinopoly factory. Point being you shouldn’t make blanket statements!
That is an interesting looking form factor, what capacity are those cells? 90Ah?
How long have you had them?
 
They are 100ah. I have had these for a couple of months - will get around to assembling the system one day..

Running a Victron 5000kva inverter on this lot for a desalination plant / split system AC. Supercaps to help with start up current surge.
 

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