Can a victron 3-phase inverter setup power a 20 horsepower 15 kVA induction motor..

[arthurgeorge]

Can a victron 3-phase inverter setup power a 20 horsepower 15 kVA induction motor..

 

[snoobler]

No. To my knowledge, no Victron inverter outputs 3-phase; however, 3 can be wired and synchronized to operate in 3-phase.

The question then becomes what is the surge current of the motor? The Victrons can handle 2X their rated current for 30 seconds. Surge can be as much as 10X the run current, but is likely closer to 5X. You would need to select 3X Quattro 10kW or 15kW units to accommodate the surge of the motor. If the motor has a soft starter or can be controlled with a VFD, you can substantially reduce surge.

 

[schmism]

the short answer.... no

 

[snoobler]

3 15kW in 3 phase could provide 45kW of run and 90kW of surge, so I suspect they would suffice, but the wallet raping likely pushes it to the "no" category.

 

[schmism]

I was under the impression that 3 single phase inverters that are paralleled do not increase their output. IE 1 unit provides 15kw for the first third of the phase, it "hands off" to the second unit, which provides 15kw to the second part of "third", which hands off to the third unit for the last part of the phase.

IE 3 - 15kw single phase inverters, tied together provide 15kw of 3phase. not 45kw of 3phase.

 

[snoobler]

You're right. Man... need to go to bed early tonight.

 

[arthurgeorge]

Good morning, my name is Arthur. I am from Nigeria, I found your answers to my post highly interesting. I have been doing some research to get a good system to operate these critical loads on my fish farm and appreciate everyone's ideas. it was a very welcoming suggestion.
LOAD PROFILE... CRITICAL
EXTRUDER MACHINE 20HP 15KW
WATER PUMP 7.5HP 3.5KW X 7 BUT NEVER RUN AT SAME TIME WE CAN HAVE AT MOST 3 RUNNING every day.
BAILING MACHINE 15HP
DRYING MACHINE 7.5KW X 2 OPERATES TOGETHER
MINOR LOAD 4KW

This is how I operate the farm when we are producing we only have the extruder machine NO' with two pumps and minor load (for light and other lil loads), and when we are not producing feed we make use of the drying machine on the bailing machine all of them don't work at once we only have the pumping machine 3 running concurrently..

I was wondering if I could get a system that could power the extruder machine 20 horsepower with 7 horsepower pump two or three I am good to go because the extruder machine is the highest-rated machine there

I have been coming across VFD and soft starter, pls in your own opinion can solar even power such a heavy load what kind of inverter can handle the job well is Victron okay these are my troubling questions for now.
below is the picture of the machines.
i really appreciate anyone helping me on this. Thanks.

 

[cinergi]

I believe you can connect 6 Quattros to get 30k of 3 phase. This is an enormous system requiring an enormous battery and solar setup.

 

[snoobler]

Datasheet says 18 - 6 groups of 3... 144kW

 

[Hedges]

SMA Sunny Island you can configure 3-phase, 17 kW continuous (at 25 degrees C), 33 kW surge current.
If it can start that largest motor, it will deliver full power but only if kept cool enough.
Running the motor with a VFD will of course make it soft-start. (But then we wonder why we can't just feed PV directly into the VFD, which of course is an inverter)
I don't know the starting current of 3-phase motors. They have a good phase-shift which helps; split-phase motors often use a capacitor, may provide much weaker starting torque.

What voltages do those motors use? 208Y? 408 delta?
No, I see 380/660 for most of them, one is 220/380. One looked different, not sure it included 380.
You'll need to select an appropriate transformer.

Oh, those Sunny Island power ratings were just coming from battery. You can attach 2x as much (34 kW) of AC coupled PV inverter, so up to 50 kW operating power and 67 kW surge in full sun. That would be peak; some power level could be depended upon during the work day except when cloudy.

SMA also has a way to link multiple groups of 3, "multi-cluster", but I'm not familiar with whether they can share loads. If so, there would be a limit based on their internal transfer relays; might provide up to 20 kW additional as a maximum.

 

[Hedges]

I was under the impression that 3 single phase inverters that are paralleled do not increase their output. IE 1 unit provides 15kw for the first third of the phase, it "hands off" to the second unit, which provides 15kw to the second part of "third", which hands off to the third unit for the last part of the phase.

IE 3 - 15kw single phase inverters, tied together provide 15kw of 3phase. not 45kw of 3phase.

I don't believe that. If 120/208Y, providing 15 kW on each of 3 legs delivers 45 kW. Same for 480 delta. similar for 120/240 split phase - if each delivers 15 kW on a 120V leg, there is 30 kW on 240V.

Doesn't matter whether the load ties each phase through an impedance to neutral, or to each other.
(But I have heard there is a preference for "Y" driving delta and vice versa, rather than driving same configuration. Something about avoiding circulating currents?)

 

[Hedges]

I believe you can connect 6 Quattros to get 30k of 3 phase. This is an enormous system requiring an enormous battery and solar setup.

No so enormous.
I've got that much deployed in my yard right now (need to drag a few more panels out of the closet for sufficient production more than just middle of the day.)
I have enough battery to kick over the motor and keep running about 30 minutes.

 

[cinergi]

No so enormous.
I've got that much deployed in my yard right now (need to drag a few more panels out of the closet for sufficient production more than just middle of the day.)
I have enough battery to kick over the motor and keep running about 30 minutes.

Hehe I guess everything is relative. The limiting factor here is simply money.

 

[arthurgeorge]

SMA Sunny Island you can configure 3-phase, 17 kW continuous (at 25 degrees C), 33 kW surge current.
If it can start that largest motor, it will deliver full power but only if kept cool enough.
Running the motor with a VFD will of course make it soft-start. (But then we wonder why we can't just feed PV directly into the VFD, which of course is an inverter)
I don't know the starting current of 3-phase motors. They have a good phase-shift which helps; split-phase motors often use a capacitor, may provide much weaker starting torque.

What voltages do those motors use? 208Y? 408 delta?
No, I see 380/660 for most of them, one is 220/380. One looked different, not sure it included 380.
You'll need to select an appropriate transformer.

Oh, those Sunny Island power ratings were just coming from battery. You can attach 2x as much (34 kW) of AC coupled PV inverter, so up to 50 kW operating power and 67 kW surge in full sun. That would be peak; some power level could be depended upon during the work day except when cloudy.

SMA also has a way to link multiple groups of 3, "multi-cluster", but I'm not familiar with whether they can share loads. If so, there would be a limit based on their internal transfer relays; might provide up to 20 kW additional as a maximum.

thanks for your contribution, the highest load among the rest of the induction motor is 20hp, 15kw 380/660volt 30.7/17.7 surge current

 

[Hedges]

It looks like Nigeria's power is typically 230V single-phase, 415V 3-phase

List of Voltages & Frequencies (Hz) by Country - Electric Power Around the Globe

Information and chart on voltages and frequencies (hertz) listed by country. Includes Single-phase, Three-phase, Hz, # of wires, plug types and info on generator frequency conversion.

www.generatorsource.com

Sunny Island is nominally 230V but 220V (for 380V 3-phase) is within its adjustment range

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SI44M-80H-13-DS-en-21.pdf

Your motor is wired 380 delta, 660 Y

If you set up a 3-phase Sunny Island, a transformer across each pair of Sunny Island would take in 380 on the primary and secondary could produce isolated 380, to be wired as Y. Or, a different transformer could produce 660 to be wired as delta. I think one of these two is preferred but haven't worked with 3-phase configurations much.

TEMCo Euro Standard Transformer TT1052 - 30 kVA

208 Volts Delta Pri 380/400/415 Volts Wye Secondary. 3 Phase, 50/60 Hz, Copper Wound.

temcoindustrial.com

An auto-transformer would boost 220V to 380V at lower size & cost (non isolated)

TEMCo Autotransformer T56351 30 kVA, 220 Primary Volts x 380 Secondary Volts, 50/60 Hz, Three Phase, Copper

30 kVA, 220 Primary Volts x 380 Secondary Volts, 50/60 Hz, Three Phase, Copper

temcoindustrial.com

Is 30.7A the surge current? I see it is more than 15 kVA; it's 35 kVA which is just about what a 3-phase configuration of Sunny Island can produce (each is 11 kVA for 5 seconds).

That system may be right on the edge of what you need. Looks like "Sunny Tripower Storage at 60 kW may be more appropriate, and can operate directly at 380V:

https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPS60-DS-en-24.pdf

Sunny Tripower Storage 60 (Successor: SMA Commercial Storage Solution) | SMA Solar

Information on the Sunny Tripower Storage 60 (no longer sold by SMA) ► discover the successor here!

www.sma.de

You would also use a PV inverter:

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SHP75-10-DEN1917-V24.pdf

Solar Inverters | SMA Solar

We offer you the right device for each application: for all module types, for grid-connection and feeding into stand-alone grids, for small house systems and commercial systems in the Megawatt range.

www.sma.de

 

[HaldorEE]

I was under the impression that 3 single phase inverters that are paralleled do not increase their output. IE 1 unit provides 15kw for the first third of the phase, it "hands off" to the second unit, which provides 15kw to the second part of "third", which hands off to the third unit for the last part of the phase.

IE 3 - 15kw single phase inverters, tied together provide 15kw of 3phase. not 45kw of 3phase.

It is not quite that simple.

Power is being delivered from all 3 phases most of the time. At 3 points in each cycle, one phase it at 0V and the other two phases are at some interim voltage (less than max). And at 3 other points in each cycle, once phase will be at full voltage and the other 2 phases will deliver at some interim voltage (more than 0, less than max). I would need to do some math to figure out precisely how much average power is being delivered, but it is more than the max that a single phase is capable of. Since nobody is paying me to do the math, I will leave the precise calculation to the student.

Three-Phase Power - Equations

Electrical 3-phase equations.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

 

[HaldorEE]

 

[HaldorEE]

View attachment 25721

A cursory examination of the 3 phase waveforms shows that when any phase is at max voltage, the other two phases are at 50% of max voltage. This indicates to me that the correct answer is that 3 phase power is capable of delivering double the max power of any single phase. Going to take calculus to prove this and I don't do calculus for anyone unless they are willing to give me money or a kiss.

 

[Hedges]

Into a real, linear load (i.e. a resistor), instantaneous power is V^2/R (goes to zero when voltage is zero)
If average power from a single phase is 15 kW, then average power delivered from three phases is 45 kW.
With those three phases each 120 degrees apart, instantaneous power at all times is also 45 kW. 3-phase delivers perfectly smooth power, no ripples.
That means current draw from a battery to deliver 3-phase has no ripple. A single 3-phase inverter would have no ripple on its capacitors. (in both cases I'm referring to 60 Hz ripple; the inverters have a higher operating frequency which would ripple.)

Yes, I did have to do the calculus. That was an exercise in school.
If one inverter delivers 15 kW, two inverters split-phase delivers 30 kW and three inverters 3-phase delivers 45 kW.
In the case of 120/208 you can connect 3 resistive loads each from one phase to neutral and each sees 120V. 3 resistive loads each across two phases and each sees 208V. Make them the right resistance for each case, and 45 kW delivered in each case.

Now, if you rectify single phase or 3 phase to put it on a capacitor (e.g. for a VFD that doesn't have power factor correction), then current draw does ripple. Zero current draw until a phase exceeds voltage on the capacitor.

But for motors, very smooth power and nice torque.

 

[HaldorEE]

Into a real, linear load (i.e. a resistor), instantaneous power is V^2/R (goes to zero when voltage is zero)
If average power from a single phase is 15 kW, then average power delivered from three phases is 45 kW.
With those three phases each 120 degrees apart, instantaneous power at all times is also 45 kW. 3-phase delivers perfectly smooth power, no ripples.
That means current draw from a battery to deliver 3-phase has no ripple. A single 3-phase inverter would have no ripple on its capacitors. (in both cases I'm referring to 60 Hz ripple; the inverters have a higher operating frequency which would ripple.)

Yes, I did have to do the calculus. That was an exercise in school.
If one inverter delivers 15 kW, two inverters split-phase delivers 30 kW and three inverters 3-phase delivers 45 kW.
In the case of 120/208 you can connect 3 resistive loads each from one phase to neutral and each sees 120V. 3 resistive loads each across two phases and each sees 208V. Make them the right resistance for each case, and 45 kW delivered in each case.

Now, if you rectify single phase or 3 phase to put it on a capacitor (e.g. for a VFD that doesn't have power factor correction), then current draw does ripple. Zero current draw until a phase exceeds voltage on the capacitor.

But for motors, very smooth power and nice torque.

Thanks for the analysis. My electric machines classes where back in the 80's and I haven't had much to do with 3 phase power since. Most of my practice is involved with signal processing and embedded systems.

And every time I do think about it, I am just impressed as hell by Tesla. He truly was the wizard of the 19th century. Most of the advances of the 20th century were dependent on Tesla's work.