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Can i use Mega fuse instead of anl fuse for Will's 400w rv solar system?

The ABYC doesn't make regulations.
Does it matter if it's a regulation code or whatever you choose to call it. The ABYC has an accepted standard of how to put together electrical wiring, which unlike NEC code, the ABYC is available.

300,000 electrical fires a year in the US, and true that is only one in every one thousand, but if that is my RV that burns down, it matters to me.
 
Does it matter if it's a regulation code or whatever you choose to call it. The ABYC has an accepted standard of how to put together electrical wiring, which unlike NEC code, the ABYC is available.

300,000 electrical fires a year in the US, and true that is only one in every one thousand, but if that is my RV that burns down, it matters to me.

The A.B.Y.C. (American Boat and Yacht Council) makes recommendations for boats, not motor vehicles.

We were talking about double-studded fuse holders, about which the A.B.Y.C. in fact says nothing. The person who said that there is a regulation requiring these holders acknowledged in a subsequent post that it applies, if it exists, only to commercial maritime vessels in the European Union.

The A.B.Y.C. does make a recommendation about ignition protection. The recommendation applies only to vessels that have inboard engines and engine compartments, and it applies only to the area of a boat where gasoline and gasoline fumes are present. It says specifically that it does not apply to outboard engines or to diesel fuel. Basically, the concern is that a spark in the engine compartment area will ignite the gasoline. Pretty simple.

In other words, the A.B.Y.C.'s recommendation is about being in a marine vessel out on the water with an engine room containing a gasoline-powered engine. As I've already said, I apply this recommendation on my own boat. However, the recommendation is about circumstances that are very different from being in a motor vehicle on a roadway.

People will make their own decisions about how analogous the two situations are, or aren't. I'm not even arguing against using one of these fuses. However, if I'm going to use one, I want to have a reason that makes sense. "There's a regulation" is simply untrue. "The American Boat and Yacht Council recommended that I do it", unless we're talking about certain kinds of boats, is also untrue. Whether what the A.B.Y.C. says is analogous, people can decide for themselves, preferably after they've actually read what it says and thought about it. For the battery that I just set up, these fuses didn't make sense, including financially.
 
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Does it matter if it's a regulation code or whatever you choose to call it. The ABYC has an accepted standard of how to put together electrical wiring, which unlike NEC code, the ABYC is available.

300,000 electrical fires a year in the US, and true that is only one in every one thousand, but if that is my RV that burns down, it matters to me.

Very true - you can do it correct, or you can do it cheap, but seldom is correct the cheapest.

I've since ignored "reg" as he's not worth my time; even when it's given away free ;)
 
I didn't even know what AIC was and the importance of taking it into consideration when buying fuses or breakers. I learned from others on this forum.....thank you! I am using a Samlex 100 amp MRBF fuse and it's connected directly to the positive terminal of my 24 volt battery. The AIC rating is: AIC of 10000 A at 14VDC, 5000 A at 32 VDC and 2000 A at 58 VD.

It wasn't that cheap but it wasn't that expensive either. No doubt it's high quality and when it comes to fuses or breakers there is no way I would go cheap. I have no doubt in the event of a short the fuse would perform flawlessly.

At the time I bought the fuse I didn't know I was going to be using a 2000 watt inverter and it will draw apx. 100 amps at full load. However I will never use the full 2000 watts so the fuse will be fine.

I am going to be rebuilding my pack and ordered a Blue Sea 2722 DualBus Plus 150A BusBar. This busbar will help me greatly to tidy up my mess...lol. I know I will like it and it is another quality item.
 
Neither I nor anyone else in this thread has suggested cutting corners on safety. Having retreated from the factually baseless claim that BlueSea's circuit protection designs are legally required, the same person has now suggested that distinguishing between marine and land needs, and questioning the pricing of BlueSea's products, compared to prices from the inventors of the products, is being "cheap" and compromises safety.

Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussmann have been leaders in the development and production of circuit protection products throughout their history. Blue Sea is in the pleasure craft business. It, and indeed Victron, basically rebrand circuit protection products that Littelfuse and Bussmann invented and sell them for more money. Victron has just released a video about its fuse holders that touts features that Littelfuse holders have had for many years.

For example, and as stated earlier, Littelfuse itself makes fuse holders that provide full ignition protection. They are typically used in commercial vehicles transporting dangerous goods. Eaton/Bussmann makes similar products. Interestingly, Eaton also says, specifically, that its in-line blade fuses, which include 80A and 100A fuses, provide ignition protection to SAE standards (see the first screen capture). These SAE standards are the exact same standards recommended by the American Boat and Yacht Council for gasoline-powered inboard engines on boats and yachts.

It is beyond me why someone would think that Blue Sea's fuse holders and fuses are somehow "better" than what Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussmann make. The idea appears to be a tribute to BlueSea marketing and Internet forum group-think. If Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussmann products are competitive with their aftermarket imitators on price, it isn't because they aren't as good, it's because their market consists of hundreds and hundreds of millions of motor vehicle owners, not just boat owners. Personally, I also have greater confidence in Littelfuse/Bussmann quality control.

I wonder how many people here know that Brunswick Corporation is the actual owner of Blue Sea, and that the latter is not some little independent company in Bellingham, Washington. Many people will be familiar with the name Brunswick. Historically, its main business was making billiard tables, bowling machines and bowling balls. Like the conglomerate that it is (remember when conglomerates were a trendy way to make a fast buck?), it has also dabbled (what follows is by no means an exhaustive list) in toilet seats, automobile tires, phonograph records, furniture for schools, assault weapons and boats.

Last year, Brunswick decided that being a conglomerate isn't a great long-term business model (something that has been common knowledge for decades) and decided to concentrate on its marine businesses. Over the last few years, it has been on a buying spree in an effort to corner the market on certain marine segments, including wiring and electrical.

The electrical part of this buying spree is done through a Brunswick Corporation subsidiary called BEP Marine. BEP is based in Auckland, New Zealand. It is the parent company of Blue Sea, which Brunswick purchased in 2014. As the second screen capture shows, BEP is also the owner of several other marine electrical brands, and a couple of RV brands. Buying all the players is what you do if you want to control production, cost and ultimately price in an entire business segment.

Personally, I'll stick with Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussmann unless there's a specific, fact-based reason to look elsewhere. I respect the fact that they invented these fuse formats. I prefer to support people who have a long track record of research, development and innovation, especially when what they offer is competitive on price. They not only make very good holders, they make holders that aren't even made by aftermarket firms, such as Blue Sea and Victron, that sell into niche markets. As stated above, I also have greater confidence in Littelfuse/Bussmann quality control when it comes to fuses. Finally, I think that what Brunswick Corporation is doing is blatantly anti-competitive and that this results in higher prices. While I'm prepared to purchase Ancor wire, in particular, I'm not looking for reasons to give Brunswick Corporation my money.

The idea that I look first to Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussmann because I'm "cheap", and that I endorse cutting corners on safety, is as baseless as the original claim about legal requirements. It's not only baseless, it is itself cheap, the kind of ad hominem personal attack that people resort to when they can't think of anything better.


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I can not seem to find anywhere what the actual fault current of the eve 280ah cells is. I would like to know if an anl fuse is actually enough or not.
 
Look up internal resistance of the cells and divide battery voltage by that.
The figures I've seen are 0.25 milliohm spec, 0.17 milliohm typical.

3.4V / 0.00017 = 20,000A
That's about 5x what AGM delivers into a short.

But I haven't seen any reported measurements.

Based on my calculations, I'd say ANL et. al. aren't sufficient, but class T is. Only for one series string of cells, not a 2p with some number in series.
There are some fuses from Ferraz Shawmut and breakers from Midnight rated 50kA interrupting.
 
Blue Sea's holders and fuses are more expensive because it sells into a niche, fairly lucrative market of boat owners and can get away with
There’s an element of truth there.
However, there’s a number of other factors (others have mentioned) but two I will mention as the price argument was brought up:
1) you can expect a 100% dependable expectation and service with Blue Sea. If you need something and don’t want to think about it you can buy with your eyes closed.
2) it’s like paint: the painter shows up at your house with $800 of paint, applies it, bills you $10,000. He could have shown up with $475 of paint and done the same job, and billed you $9,750.00.
The bulk of the cost is in the labor. The cost of the parts seems small- spending low dollar on parts may affect the outcome dependability-wise but the homogeneous dollar outcome is not remarkably different. It’s along the idea of a cheap car stereo with excellent speakers often sounds great, but a good car stereo with cheap speakers will never sound good.

Sometimes the long dollar and the high dollar are worthwhile expenses.
Blue Sea stuff is good stuff: the Chinese knock-off grounded fuse blocks are $15 less but… I was ordering another blue sea and clicked a knockoff into the cart at the same time just for fun.
Blue Sea is quality and you pay more- not quite the Bugatti price, but a Caddy price. The Other Box was yugo quality and Hyundai price
 
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If you have a class T as the main fuse. For al the smaller load bank and such does it then matter what AIC those fuses have? Like if you have a class t on battery to a fuse block with amg or anl or midi fuses? I'm now wondering if one of them pops will it arv untill the main fuse pops in the event of a dead short?
 
if you have a class t on battery to a fuse block with amg or anl or midi fuses? I'm now wondering if one of them pops will it arc untill the main fuse pops in the event of a dead short?

Just read this. Interesting point.

Yes. If the midi fuse blows and sustains current through the arc that does not provide/transfer current in excess of the rating of the Class T fuse at the battery then the arc would likely not extinguish. The arc is essentially a “poor connection” and will produce a lot of heat from the resistance of the air gap. In theory.

I am not an EE; it would be interesting to hear the engineering perspective.

The Class T is there due to lithium batteries having the capacity to dump “10,000A” instantaneously should a fault outside the battery and the BMS has failed ‘closed.’

When you think about the generally, comparatively tiny wires inside a manufactured battery- or self-built battery- you can sortof realize THAT is a very poor quality fuse itself. In a 10,000A ‘dump’ the Class T at the battery should hopefully interrupt the circuit before the battery becomes a source of a (the?) fire.

So the busbar then feeds an inverter/inverters. Most of which I imagine contain a fuse to protect itself. Even Giandel has a fuse; unknown if it’s Class T. And then the SCC battery connection circuit internally will contain a fuse to protect itself. So that leaves the cabling that we install theoretically unfused.

Q? Are DC breakers between Batt/bus and SCC/inverter necessary?
I think they are; the ‘rule of thumb’ is, “fuses protect the wires” but if we provide a breaker for safety disconnect we are also protecting upstream equipment in an ‘event’ as well as mere convenience.
ABYC has an accepted standard of how to put together electrical wiring, which unlike NEC code, the ABYC is available.

300,000 electrical fires a year in the US, and true that is only one in every one thousand, but if that is my RV that burns down, it matters to me

The way I see it, burning down an RV is almost too gentle of a metaphor. Death from a fire (or usually the smoke) is a pretty real possibility.

I’ll admit I’ve been sloppy with some lack of proper fusing in my own situation, sortof letting myself “be lazy” as my original system was two flooded lead batteries, a 1200W inverter, and 30A charge controller, and 200W of panels 22VOC. That’s very simple to protect.

As with most of us, my system has grown and morphed to where I’m currently 88VOC, eight batteries, and have (although a meager 8A max) an incoming grid connection I can turn on should I need it. The upgrade I’ll be turning on soon is 150VOC with a theoretical or potential 120A of charging with lithium batteries. That ratchets up the risk factors to be mindful of. Considerably.
The escalation of safety needs so dramatically is no longer a simple and forgiving (nearly casual) automotive/marine 12V exercise.

So Class T at each battery makes the most sense; if something happens and a Class T blows and cascades to blowing other battery fuses - if any- that is better than the economic loss or risk of death to myself and others.
 
I am not an EE; it would be interesting to hear the engineering perspective.

Yes, hierarchy of OCP is selected for which trips first, possibly destroying itself in the process and leaving rest of facility powered, possibly branch circuit protection delaying trip so main facility OCP opens without damage to anything.

If not selected well, could just sit there and burn. Especially for higher impedance load not enough current to trip class-T or poorly rated branch circuit protection.

I'm using some magnetic-hydraulic breakers now, which only remain on for seconds at modest overload, rather than minutes for thermal.

The Class T is there due to lithium batteries having the capacity to dump “10,000A” instantaneously should a fault outside the battery and the BMS has failed ‘closed.’

When you think about the generally, comparatively tiny wires inside a manufactured battery- or self-built battery- you can sortof realize THAT is a very poor quality fuse itself. In a 10,000A ‘dump’ the Class T at the battery should hopefully interrupt the circuit before the battery becomes a source of a (the?) fire.

One guy had a poor contact busbar melt terminal on cell; class T fuse didn't blow.

If suitably rated fuse blows, it contains the event so nothing else around it is affected.
10,000A x 50V = 500,000kW for however many milliseconds.
Same fuse used in an AC circuit can see 100,000A and 250V, 50x as much power in something the size of a salt shaker. Hopefully for < 8 milliseconds (one half cycle of AC). I'm not clear how fast these clear for DC.

So the busbar then feeds an inverter/inverters. Most of which I imagine contain a fuse to protect itself. Even Giandel has a fuse; unknown if it’s Class T. And then the SCC battery connection circuit internally will contain a fuse to protect itself. So that leaves the cabling that we install theoretically unfused.

Cheap little inverters contain fuses, sometimes a few 40A automotive fuses.
Some of the larger ones have circuit breakers.
Copper cable could take quite a hit, but you wouldn't want to be around when it let go. Aluminum would melt much sooner. But not designed to extinguish arc.
 
If you have a class T as the main fuse. For al the smaller load bank and such does it then matter what AIC those fuses have? Like if you have a class t on battery to a fuse block with amg or anl or midi fuses? I'm now wondering if one of them pops will it arv untill the main fuse pops in the event of a dead short?
I have 150A ANL fuse on my LIFPO4 battery, but I'm only running 4AWG wire. So not likely to get that huge AIC current spike.
Likewise your branch circuits do not need to be class T, for smaller wire gauges.
I have ANL on major branches, but victron midi-mega bus would have saved room. I have fuse boxes with blade fuses.
If I install a large inverter and heavier gauge wire, I will switch to class T battery fuse.
 
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I have 150A ANL fuse on my LIFPO4 battery, but I'm only running 4AWG wire. So not likely to get that huge AIC current spike.
What voltage is the battery?
Is the ANL fuse close to the battery positive terminal?
The closer it is, the higher the dead short current.
 
have 150A ANL fuse on my LIFPO4 battery, but I'm only running 4AWG wire. So not likely to get that huge AIC current spike
When I create an arc with a mig or even a stick welder, metal is becoming molten in a few hundred milliseconds. Voltage of a welder is actually surprisingly low in many tasks.

So the question to be asking is for how long and how many amps will a 4 gage cable support 1000A? Or 500A, or 10,000A? And what is the self-extinguishing length of an arc at your battery voltage for that 150A ANL?
Copper cable could take quite a hit, but you wouldn't want to be around when it let go
If not selected well, could just sit there and burn
This is the reality I’ve purchased ‘protection’ items for because of the potential contained in lithium batteries. And then discussions on this newsgroup over the last couple of years mentioning BMS FETs failing ‘closed’ and you realize even a ‘good’ BMS needs us to externally fuse against catastrophic failure.
using some magnetic-hydraulic breakers now, which only remain on for seconds at modest overload, rather than minutes for thermal
Is there a source and brand you suggest? I think I’ve seen you mention before but I have no clue as to where. That they are resettable may justify the cost for some who may be averse to installing an expensive fuse; a big honkin fuse for a larger household solar system could be $150, and I felt lucky to buy a card of three 125A DC rated Class T’s for $110…
 
Midnight sells CBI, and I think Carling tech.
Stella Volta is a retailer who carries their products, sells is smaller quantities.
They seem to like using U.S. mail, which is sometimes delayed an extra week.
Also Outback.

Be on the lookout for polarized vs. non-polarized. There may be some stock of polarized you would want to avoid except for select applications.

Googling, I found various sources of some of these. Also read spec sheets. There seem to be more model numbers on the data sheets than you can find in-stock. I think the manufacturers are making these available to OEMs, who can request samples and production quantities of any value in the line.

I report test results and link data sheets here.


Those are AC branch circuit breakers. I also have some Outback polarized PV breakers for combiner box, one Midnight for output of that box. There are 175A and 250A (50k AIC) DC breakers available from Midnight (I think Carling?) but I don't have any.
 
What voltage is the battery?
Is the ANL fuse close to the battery positive terminal?
The closer it is, the higher the dead short current.
12v 200AH and 280AH builds with 120A BMS. Overkill BMS uses 3ea 10awg in and out. 150A ANL Fuses are in the battery box, an off the shelf automotive battery box. Also have another 150A before the bus bar and there is a victron shunt adding resistance.
Shorts are highly unlikely due to wire/connector insulation and physical layout. Plus and Minus wires go thru separate holes in wall (under bed storage to pass thru storage). Bolted down and might survive a crash and rollover, but then would I still care? I would have other problems.
Disclaimer: I am a top grade tech and witnessed many newbies fail at imitation.
I should have build notes somewhere on this laptop.

Class-T vs ANL fuse, DIY forum.
 
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